Swine Flu argument.

[mariomike]

I'm not an expert, but the article mentioned SARS: "Remember SARS? More bullshit." Maybe it was, I don't know. But, I do know that SARS put the fear of God into me. I was one of the 600 ( out of 850 ) Toronto Paramedics who were quarantined. I don't know anyone who died of it, but I do know the five who were infected. Not one them ever returned to Operations. I knew them when they were strong and healthy. I never saw them that way again.

 

[aesop081]

AIDS is an epidemic is it not ?

It i generaly deadly and it is contagious. Yet we go on with life taking sensible precautions and we dont cause mass histeria. We dont close a school, because a student has AIDS do we ?

How did you as a paramedic manage to continue working when at any time, one of your cases could be an AIDS positive person ?

It is not SARS that put the fear of god into you, its all the fear-mongering and misinformation that did.

 

[mariomike]

That's a good point. After we began wearing N95 respirators, gowns, gloves, and goggles no paramedics became ill with SARS. I did notice that the public started to avoid us. I hated quarantine. Worse than the fear itself was the stigma.
 

 

[the 48th regulator]

AIDS is an epidemic is it not ?

It i generaly deadly and it is contagious. Yet we go on with life taking sensible precautions and we dont cause mass histeria. We dont close a school, because a student has AIDS do we ?

How did you as a paramedic manage to continue working when at any time, one of your cases could be an AIDS positive person ?

It is not SARS that put the fear of god into you, its all the fear-mongering and misinformation that did.

I can't believe you made this statement.

the fear is not of the the Disease itself, but how the disease is transmitted.

AIDS, before it was realized, that it was a very unstable virus outside of the body, and non transmittable, via airborne or service contact, was treated just like the swine flu or SARS.

SARS is a main example, how a disease can quickly cripple a nation.

Within weeks it arrived in Toronto, injured and killed people.  It also destroyed life, as this was the final nail in the film/tourism/production etc etc industry for Canada.

The fear is not the Disease itself, but how quickly it can travel.  The Spanish flu, a close relative of the Swine flu, killed 50 million people worldwide.  This was an era of slow travel.  The fear now is the ease of how it can spread globally.

Sorry, your debunking of the "Fear Mongering" of the establishment is weak.  Your suggestion that we live a blasé life, is more of a danger than the actual contagion, in itself.

dileas

tess

 

[mariomike]

Do you remember when Mayor Lastman went on CNN?
When he was asked what the World Health Organization was doing about the SARS crisis, Lastman replied "They don't know what they're talking about. I don't know who this group is. I've never heard of them before."  ;D

Jon Stewart lapooned the mayor in SARS Attacks!:
http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/best-of/the-daily-show-goes-canadian/#clip86141

 

[aesop081]

  This was an era of slow travel. 

Want to compare the state of public health between now and then too ? How about the state of medical research and the ability to produce solutions ?

You cant compare the spread of 2 related diseases in a vacuum. You cant have it both ways.

Within weeks it arrived in Toronto

Oh yes, i forgot, if it happens in TO, that makes it a global calamity.  ;D

I traveled through Toronto 3 times during the SARS crisis.......guess what.....i didnt get SARS.

Your suggestion that we live a blasé life

That is never what i said and you would know that if you took the time to read rather than scream just because i'm not ready to run around with my head cut off. It is contagious disease but basic prevention, that everyone should follow anyways, would do a better job than doom-and-glood public press conferences by organizations eager to show that what they have warned us about has finaly come true.

Wash you hands, cough into your sleave, stay home if you are sick........sounds like sound advice for just about every day.......Guess we should panic now eh ?

:

Anyways, you guys go ahead and panic. I'm just going to keep following basic public health practices and remain calm.

Continue the panic and this thread without me.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

A couple of quick comments about Swine Flu and SARS, First SARS: the reason that SARS was such a problem was because the health care people screwed-up. They allowed infected people to lay around in the hospital corridors infecting people. Then they allowed infected people to go home where they passed the SARS infection to other people.  Mark Steyn has a good write-up about the SARS epidemic in Toronto and how it was spread and how the health care people blew-it and can be found here.

Earlier someone (Tomahawk I think) mentioned about that about 30,000 people die in [in the U.S] from the normal flu variant. Various commentators here in Canada have put the figure at 4,000+ deaths which is an exaggeration. The actual deaths from influenza is actually quite lower.  The reason for the 4,000+ figure is that STATSCAN lists the total deaths from flu and pneumonia deaths together, before breaking the deaths down. For instance, in 2003 4,957 people died from influenza/pneumonia, of which only 460 deaths are actually from influenza (in its various forms including combination of flu/pneumonia).

- In 2002 a total of 4,725 people died from flu/pneumonia, of which 452 deaths were actually from influenza;
- 2001 4,776 deaths flu/pneumonia of which only 184 people died from flu; and
- 2000 there were a total of 4,996 from flu/pneumonia and whom 1,124 died from influenza.

As you can see from above there can be quite a difference from one year to the next. But, contrary from what various commentators have been saying the total yearly deaths from influenza is actually quite low when compared to total deaths. For example, in 2003 over 18,000 people died from various respiratory diseases.

 

[Michael OLeary]

But, contrary from what various commentators have been saying the total yearly deaths from influenza is actually quite low when compared to total deaths. For example, in 2003 over 18,000 people died from various respiratory diseases.

What is not quantified is the number who were infected with any strain of flu and the hit their immune system took resulted in a death by another disease that may otherwise have been beaten.  Stats are only as good at the level of detail provided with them.

While I neither support the "EVERYBODY PANIC" or the "just ignore the hysteria" camps, there is cause for concern if this does break out in any serious numbers, even if just for the extra pressure on the medicals system to see/treat those who get it.  I've had the misfortune to spend a month on sick leave this summer as a result of a type "A" flu virus.  I can tell you from personal experience that anyone who wants to compare the effects to the regular flu is RTFO.

 

[mariomike]

I've had the misfortune to spend a month on sick leave this summer as a result of a type "A" flu virus.  I can tell you from personal experience that anyone who wants to compare the effects to the regular flu is RTFO.

I hope you are feeling better, Mike.
What does RTFO mean? I had to look it up:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rtfo

 

[muskrat89]

Anyways, you guys go ahead and panic.

Who's panicking? Just because we're interested in discussing it, and we're not inviting infected people to "sneeze in our face" doesn't mean we're in a state of panic.

Just because the press is selling it, doesn't mean we're buying it...

 

[Greymatters]

Just because the press is selling it, doesn't mean we're buying it...

But we're certainly monitoring it... the debates being printed/posted are very similiar to past ones regarding earthquake preparedness and response to terrorist events...

 

[muskrat89]

Seasonal Flu versus Pandemic Flu Comparison

http://www.pandemicflu.gov/season_or_pandemic.html

Of course - consider the source 

 

[kratz]

I caught this new item in the Winnipeg Free Press yesterday and was not sure which thread to post it in. I think it is wise to ask questions without raising alarm over the topic of H1N1. In this case, the MP does have a valid concern in my opinion.

H1N1 fears should halt election: MP
By: Mia Rabson
15/09/2009 1:00 AM

OTTAWA -- Manitoba MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis joked Monday she might hang a sign around her neck telling voters she'd like to shake their hand or give them a hug but she can't because of the H1N1 flu.
But she wasn't joking when she wrote to Elections Canada wondering exactly what plans and precautions the agency is taking to protect voters, candidates and campaign workers during an election.

"What happens if 30 per cent of your volunteers are off sick? How do we ensure people who are sick don't get disenfranchised," she said.

Wasylycia-Leis said the Public Health Agency of Canada advised last week that some mass gatherings should be cancelled or postponed in the event of a flu outbreak. If that happened it would have serious implications for how elections are run, she said.

Most ridings have public meetings and forums to meet candidates, events that may need to be reconsidered if H1N1 takes hold, Wasylycia-Leis said.

She said candidates will also have to rethink how they go about knocking on doors. She said she often shakes hands and hugs voters and will feel compelled to explain why she won't be doing that if an election occurs this fall.

"We're going to have to change our habits in the campaign," she said. "Maybe having a sign saying the reason we're not shaking their hand."

Candidates who themselves become ill will pose a new problem as well.

A spokeswoman for Elections Canada said Monday the agency will take its direction from Health Canada in responding to an H1N1 outbreak.

She said hand sanitizers will be made available at all polling stations along with posters advising people what precautions to take and how to recognize symptoms.

more at link

 

[CANADIAN F0RCES]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_he_me/us_med_swine_flu



WASHINGTON – The Food and Drug Administration approved the new swine flu vaccine Tuesday, a long-anticipated step as the government works to start mass vaccinations next month. Limited supplies should start trickling out the first week of October — about a week earlier than expected, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told Congress. Then about 45 million doses should arrive around Oct. 15, followed by more shipments each week.

She said they'll be available at up to 90,000 sites, including schools and clinics, across the U.S. that state health departments have chosen as best at getting the shots out fast.

Eventually, "we will have enough vaccine available for everyone," Sebelius said. Everyone who wants it, that is.

The government has ordered 195 million doses but may order more if there's enough demand, she said. Typically fewer than 100 million Americans seek flu vaccine every year, and it's unclear whether swine flu — what scientists prefer to call the 2009 H1N1 strain — will prompt much more demand. A recent Associated Press-GfK poll found 57 percent of people said they were likely to get it.

This year is unusual: Many people will have to line up twice for flu vaccine, once to be inoculated against regular winter flu and a second time for an H1N1 vaccination.

The new swine flu seems no more deadly than regular winter flu, which every year kills 36,000 Americans and hospitalizes 200,000. But there's an important difference: This H1N1 strain sickens younger people more frequently than the people over 65 who are the main victims of seasonal flu.

So the government wants certain people in line first for the H1N1 vaccinations: Pregnant women; the young, from age 6 months up through age 24; and people younger than 65 who have flu-risky conditions such as asthma, diabetes or heart disease; caregivers of the at-risk, including newborns; and health workers.

The vast majority of people who get swine flu "so far are not terribly ill," Sebelius noted, saying most will recover fine at home with some rest and fluids. And they shouldn't race to doctors' offices seeking tests to find out what kind of flu they have — H1N1 or the regular strains that circulate every winter — because treatment is the same.

"The flu is the flu is the flu right now," Sebelius said.

Nor should doctors hand out prescriptions for anti-flu medicines to be used to prevent flu, she added, because "it could make them sicker in the long run."

The drugs Tamiflu and Relenza should be used for treatment only, she stressed.

Sebelius announced the FDA's approval of vaccine made by four of the expected five manufacturers: CSL Ltd. of Australia, Switzerland's Novartis Vaccines, Sanofi Pasteur of France — which produces flu shots at its Swiftwater, Pa., factory — and Maryland-based MedImmune LLC, which makes the only nasal-spray flu vaccine.

London-based GlaxoSmithKline also was expected to supply vaccine. Sebelius said only that a fifth manufacturer's vaccine was expected to be approved soon, pending some final steps.

Getting licensing from the FDA means that the vaccine is made properly and meets specific manufacturing and quality standards.

What's the right dose? Figuring that out is the job of the National Institutes of Health, which last week announced studies showing that one dose appears to protect adults — and that protection kicks in just eight to 10 days after the shot, faster than scientists had predicted.

Studies in children and pregnant women are continuing to settle on the right dose for those populations.

The H1N1 vaccine seems just as safe as the long-used regular flu vaccine, the FDA said, not a surprise as it's made the same way. Side effects include soreness or redness at the injection site, and some fever.

The government will keep a sharp eye for any very rare side effects. The last mass vaccination against a different swine flu, in 1976, was marred by reports of the paralyzing Guillain-Barre syndrome; scientists never proved whether that link was real or coincidence.

 

[CANADIAN F0RCES]

I saw this this morning on CNN. First thing I see wants to put me back to bed. haha!
I tried to link it from the FDA site but its "too busy" so I felt yahoo would do to source for now.

 

[Michael OLeary]

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/01/flu-hand-wash.html

Report questions value of handwashing to fight flu
Last Updated: Thursday, October 1, 2009 | 4:59 PM ET Comments97Recommend40
CBC News

The effectiveness of handwashing to prevent the spread of flu has come into question.

A news article in Thursday's online issue of the Canadian Medical Association Journal points to a Canadian report from 2007 that concluded there is no evidence that proper hand hygiene prevents transmission of flu viruses.

Although the report by the Council of Canadian Academies was commissioned by the Public Health Agency of Canada, PHAC still recommends handwashing to prevent the spread of flu.

Hand hygiene is touted as the major mode of interrupting the spread of flu, and plays a central role in influenza-control guidelines for both seasonal and pandemic disease, Thursday's report said.

The assumption mainly stems from several randomized controlled trials that showed routine hand hygiene five times daily significantly decreases the risk of catching respiratory illnesses.

Most acute respiratory diseases are caused by viruses, but since none of the studies tested for that, the studies do not offer any information about whether handwashing helps limit the spread of influenza in particular, the report's authors said.

Current evidence suggests flu viruses are mainly transmitted at a short range of one to two metres by inhaling particles from someone who is infected. The virus can also survive on surfaces, and theoretically could be transmitted by contaminated hands and surfaces, according to the report.

Handwashing recommendations are therefore based on practicality rather than evidence, says the report, which is based on the findings of a 13-member panel of experts chaired by Dr. Donald Low, microbiologist-in-chief at Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto.

Low wasn't available for an interview on Thursday, but he told the journal that handwashing, "is a simple thing to do and it may protect you from some other illnesses."

The College of Family Physicians of Canada is trying to sort out the contradictory information and provide a summary to help family doctors advise their patients, CMAJ said.

The panel also looked at whether masks help protect against the transmission of flu viruses.

Mask type matters

People spew particles of various sizes from their mouth when they talk, laugh, cough and sneeze.

While larger particles fall to the ground, smaller ones in the range of 0.1 to 100 microns can stay in the air for seconds to days, depending on conditions such as humidity and airflow. It's these smaller particles that can be inhaled deep into the respiratory tract, the report said.

It concluded surgical masks that allow air in the sides don't offer much protection. The N95 respirator — a moulded mask frequently used in industrial workplaces — can help protect people, since they are designed to fit tightly on the face and block particles as small as 0.1 microns.

A separate study released Thursday in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded even surgical masks can be helpful in preventing spread of the virus.

Dr. Mark Loeb of McMaster University in Hamilton, Ont., and his colleagues conducted a randomized, controlled trial of 446 nurses in the province to compare the surgical masks with N95 respirators for protecting health-care workers from flu.

In the study, 225 nurses were assigned to wear surgical masks and 221 received the fitted N95 respirator when caring for patients with a fever and respiratory illness.

During last year's flu season, influenza infection occurred in 50 nurses (23. 6 per cent) in the surgical-mask group and in 48 (22.9 per cent) in the N95 respirator group, the researchers found.

The findings apply for routine care, not when there is high risk of exposure to aerosols, such as intubation, "where use of an N95 respirator would be prudent," the study's authors concluded.

Health officials say respirators needed to be sealed properly, which can be more of a problem for children or men with beards.

The Public Health Agency of Canada maintains there is substantial evidence that handwashing helps prevent the flu, and discourages the wearing of masks because people tend to use them improperly. The agency is reviewing the latest evidence.

 

[Another Mom]

US Army reports first death of  soldier to H1N1

http://blog.taragana.com/n/army-reports-first-death-from-swine-flu-complications-soldier-fell-ill-in-sc-basic-training-184261/

Quote:
Army’s first swine flu death is soldier in SC

COLUMBIA, S.C. — A 23-year-old soldier from Florida who was in basic training is the Army’s first death from complications of swine flu, officials said Thursday.

The death at Fort Jackson, the Army’s largest training camp and just outside Columbia, may be the first such loss among the nation’s 1.4 million men and women in uniform.

Pentagon officials said they were trying Thursday morning to confirm details of the case. But as of late last week, Department of Defense spokesmen said no military deaths had been recorded since the virus broke out last spring.

Spc. Christopher Hogg of Deltona, Fla., died Sept. 10th from “pneumonia due to H1N1 influenza,” according to Fort Jackson commander Brig. Gen. Bradley May.

“His family had traveled to Columbia to be with him and was present when he passed away,” May said in a statement Thursday.

An autopsy was conducted the following day and results received late Wednesday, May said.

Hogg was in the fifth week of basic. He had initially tested negative for the swine flu virus, but the autopsy later detected it, another defense official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

“Regrettably, this is the first H1N1-related death of a soldier for the U.S. Army,” said Gary Tallman, a civilian spokesman for the service, the Pentagon’s largest service branch with 552,425 soldiers.

Hogg reported to sick call with a fever on Sept. 1 and was treated at the Army’s Moncrief Army Community Hospital. Two days later he was transferred to a local hospital, where he died, May said.

Fort Jackson spokeswoman Karen Soule said that as of Wednesday evening, 51 of Fort Jackson’s 13,000 soldiers had flulike symptoms. More than 50,000 soldiers every year participate in either basic or advanced training on the installation.

Military recruits are always at higher risk for illness because of the stressful training environment, close quarters and rigorous physical work, military medical officials have said.

The Army has long had programs for preventing and treating illnesses. It stepped up efforts when swine flu surfaced in the spring, May said.

That includes mandatory vaccinations, frequent hand washing and use of hand sanitizer, coughing into the crook of the arm instead of the hands, and keeping hands away from the eyes, nose and mouth, the one-star general said.

Among many other steps, barracks have been rearranged so bunks are placed head-to-toe to keep soldiers as separate as possible. Living quarters are scrubbed daily with bleach, and soldiers turn in blankets, pillows and mattress covers for laundering every three weeks, the general said.

“We realize no matter how thorough our preventative measures are, soldiers will get sick, some will become seriously ill, and unfortunately some may die,” the general said.

The military installation was one of many hit hard by the 1918 global flu pandemic.

During that pandemic, Camp Jackson, as it was known at the time, had more than 60,000 soldiers in training, according to Dale Smith, the historian for the military’s medical school known as the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md.

Exact numbers are hard to come by, but estimates are that about 25 percent of those at the installation got the flu, and of the afflicted about 18 to 20 percent died, Smith said.

Many who became ill recovered, “but it still killed a lot of people,” Smith said.

Associated Press Writer Pauline Jelinek in Washington contributed to this report.

 

[Antoine]

Low wasn't available for an interview on Thursday, but he told the journal that handwashing, "is a simple thing to do and it may protect you from some other illnesses."

Absolutely a good habit.

Health officials say respirators needed to be sealed properly

Yes, many problems can occur when you think you're safe (I have a mask) and then you are less aware of danger. Not easy to double check daily that your mask is well sealed on your face. However, better be safe than sorry.

 

[PMedMoe]

Handwashing will help to prevent other communicable diseases but its effectiveness is questionable regarding prevention of H1N1 influenza which is droplet borne.  Transmission of H1N1 by contact (hands touching face/nose/mouth) is thought to be nearly impossible.

N-95 masks need to be fit tested and fit testing needs to be done every two years.  One thing to keep in mind regarding surgical masks (not fit tested) is that they should be worn by the person who is ill, not those who are well.

 

[George Wallace]

On the topic of masks, I am sure that the "uninformed" will no doubt feel safe with a mask and in fact be facilitating the spread of the virus or other bacteria, etc.  I am almost positive that 99% of the population have no clue as to the proper wearing and maintainance or regular changing of the mask or filters.  I am positive that many will buy simple masks and wear them over long periods, long past their "expiry" date/time.  Many will transmit bacteria/virus spores/etc. from the outer part of their mask when they don or remove their masks to their hands and then other parts of their bodies.  I am positive that 99% of the population will have no clue as to proper "Decontamination Drills" when using their masks.  In effect, their mask only gives them a false sense of security, and nothing more.