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Suspect in bomb plot was Canadian soldier

Hot Lips said:
Well...does this change the efforts to recruit more immigrants ::)
I agree with the ERC (as is, not a reduced standard) and the interview both being effective means for screening.

HL

I thought all these guys were born in Canada.

Much ado about nothing. Even if you suspect someone of having "suspicious" religious or political ideas, the Charter says you can't deny them employment based solely on their beliefs. Actions speak, thoughts aren't supposed to. Unless it is now a criminal offence to have beliefs? I spent 5 years or so wishing one of my WOs was dead; didn't make me a criminal. ;) Had I reached the stage of plotting his demise, that would be a different story, luckily he did himself in first.
 
We process about 3 to 4 times more than we actually intake.  So roughly 20 000 for 5000 actual enrollees.  We do we out a hell of a lot of people.  Not everyone that comes through the door is a stellar applicant.  Drugs, criminal records, odd behaviour and even attitude will get someone on the not list.

Some crazy people will get through.  Some of those get weeded out during the training process when their true colours start to show.  And some just make it in ansd do something bad that reflects badly on the CF.  It's hard to predict what someoen will do later on.  They may be awesome on paper or at the time.  But what happens to someone leter cannot always be the CFs fault.  A guy's wife cheats on him so he goes after the dude in the mess with a machete.  A couple of reservists kill a homeless person in Toronto, some guy on a recruit course kills a commisionaire while trying to steal C-7s etc etc etc.

We have 60 000 reg force and 25 000 reservists.  85 000 total give or take.  That's the size of some cities.  Find me a city of 85 000 people that has 0 crime or 0 msifits.

The reality is that we will get bad apples.  Just like any country.  Look at the US for godsakes.

all we can do is our best to prevent it from hapening.  There is no magic solution to this. 

 
In other news some of the suspects worked at a gas station and another at McDonalds.  (well probably not but really does it matter).
 
I heard one worked at Payless shoes  ;D

No there never is a fool proof solution to solve a problem.  But times have changed when it comes to personal applying for jobs.  I think it is time the CF raised the bar a little more, really what could it hurt as oppose to help.  That is the argument you need to look at.

Is it ok to recurit 5000 new people just to get them in or do you want 2000 people who you know are 1) who they say they are, 2) truly there for the job not just the training.

sometimes having the bar set high is a good thing.

 
I'm with cplcaldwell on this one, this Steven Chand fellow seems to lack the foresight and discipline to complete his training. He seems to lack the focus to complete any task, makes me wonder how serious of a threat this guy actually was.  This could have been much worse for the CF, imagine him overseas as a driver a C-6 gunner or worse translator. The danger of this type of guy is that he is very susceptible to be moulded by others. I wonder what came first his conversion to Islam or joining the CF.

Hopefully the CF can continue to embrace other cultures into our ranks, we have to for our own survival and effectiveness. Drawing the security clearance line in the sand at the door of the recruiter will break the system.  Being able to recruit, train and employ soldiers is the greater need.  There is risk in not screening people (beyond enhanced) before they join the reserves but it is an acceptable one.  But more than any other time we must be vigilant when dealing with recruits without isolating individuals which will only excaberate the problem.

:cdn:
 
Sapper41 said:
I'm with cplcaldwell on this one, this Steven Chand fellow seems to lack the foresight and discipline to complete his training. He seems to lack the focus to complete any task, makes me wonder how serious of a threat this guy actually was.  This could have been much worse for the CF, imagine him overseas as a driver a C-6 gunner or worse translator. The danger of this type of guy is that he is very susceptible to be moulded by others. I wonder what came first his conversion to Islam or joining the CF.

Hopefully the CF can continue to embrace other cultures into our ranks, we have to for our own survival and effectiveness. Drawing the security clearance line in the sand at the door of the recruiter will break the system.  Being able to recruit, train and employ soldiers is the greater need.  There is risk in not screening people (beyond enhanced) before they join the reserves but it is an acceptable one.  But more than any other time we must be vigilant when dealing with recruits without isolating individuals which will only excaberate the problem.

:cdn:



I dis-agree

I don't think you let people in just to get the numbers up.  This is not the days of old were you are who you say you are and everyone wants to join because they love this country and want to defend it.  I am not saying that everyone that joins is there to get trained to use it against us.  But there are all kinds of people who would love to get in and get trained and get access to all the toys we have.  Not just terrorist but organized crime OMG, and gangs are always looking for that door to be open and unguarded.

In my personal opinion the fastest way to end the CF is to lower the bar in order to bring the numbers up.  an ounce of prevention......
 
Wizard of OZ said:
What about a pre-employment polygraph?
Most police forces are using it why not the military.
The MP's have poly techs in each region, train some more and use them for pre-employment.  Have the poly techs write the questions for the recuriturs and train them at what to look for.

Agree with the comment about the duck: +1 for humour.

Reference the other comments for screening, some of these contravene CHRA rules, which is why urine sampling and polyscreening is not part of the process.  They tried to put it in years ago but were challenged as violating human rights and had to remove it.

Ref the training of recruiters, its not that simple.  Polygraph technicians are highly experienced and expert in their craft (although highly cynical), you cant just attend a 3-day training course and then know what you are doing. 
 
Centurian1985 said:
Agree with the comment about the duck: +1 for humour.

Reference the other comments for screening, some of these contravene CHRA rules, which is why urine sampling and polyscreening is not part of the process.  They tried to put it in years ago but were challenged as violating human rights and had to remove it.

Ref the training of recruiters, its not that simple.  Polygraph technicians are highly experienced and expert in their craft (although highly cynical), you cant just attend a 3-day training course and then know what you are doing. 

No they can't but the question to be asked and the resoponses to be looked at could be taught, It would be a lengthy process but in the end it could be worth its weight in say "ducks"

Then why is polyscreening an accepted pratice in the RCMP for Pre-empoyment in Alberta and all AB police agencies use it before you get an offer. If it is a violation of human rights? (question not being cynical)

 
Wizard of OZ said:
No they can't but the question to be asked and the resoponses to be looked at could be taught, It would be a lengthy process but in the end it could be worth its weight in say "ducks"
Then why is polyscreening an accepted pratice in the RCMP for Pre-empoyment in Alberta and all AB police agencies use it before you get an offer. If it is a violation of human rights? (question not being cynical)

There are specific rules for using the process, which the RCMP applies, in the third stage of the screening.  What is essential is to establish a BFOR (bona fide occupational requirement), which the RCMP has successfully claimed.  Personally I agree we should have one in the CF process, but dont know why the challenge was successfull.  Perhaps not enough polygraph technicians were willing to work for CF wages when the RCMP and other organizations pay so much more? 
 
IIRC the RCMP does not use Polygraphys...

Personally I think poly's suck -- they can be beaten - and you can fail them even if not guilty of things they are looking for (speakign from the perspective of someone who has doen both....)

 
Centurian1985 said:
Agree with the comment about the duck: +1 for humour.

Reference the other comments for screening, some of these contravene CHRA rules, which is why urine sampling and polyscreening is not part of the process.  They tried to put it in years ago but were challenged as violating human rights and had to remove it.

Ref the training of recruiters, its not that simple.  Polygraph technicians are highly experienced and expert in their craft (although highly cynical), you cant just attend a 3-day training course and then know what you are doing. 

I had to pee in a cup, what are you talking about? Poly's are only as good as the screener, the machine is 20% at most..
 
This guy is another wingnut convert, and for whatever reasons, who knows. We have had our share too, and one fantasiser obcessed with thte military, converted, went off to the FRY to serve there, was dissatisfied, returned to Australia, then went off to Pakistan to learn radical islam, then ended up being captured in A-Stan, and is now in Cuba whinging to be let go. Just another nutcase convert ratbag, and I hope he rots in Cuba, as does the majority of Australians. After all he was trying to kill allied soldiers, and too bad he was not killed on the batlefield himself.

I put this guy in the same bag of shyte as David Hicks. Google him if you care to.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Living in Toronto must really blow, perhaps the States would like to host these fella's in thier Cuban Resort town, let them hang out with their brothers in arms, enjoy the sun and surf, and... Oh Shyte, lock em up, toss the key in the St-Lawrence.
 
Toronto doesn't blow(I can hear everyone to the East and West of me curse in disagreement...)

I do admit to having some fears in light of these events but I gave terrorism my own f-u by taking the TTC downtown and having dinner at the foot of the CN Tower. Doesn't help win the war but it's my little contribution to the battle.
 
TMM said:
Toronto doesn't blow(I can hear everyone to the East and West of me curse in disagreement...)
I suspect the destuction of Toronto would be one of the few things that would unite Canadians.  ;)
 
Journeyman said:
I suspect the destuction of Toronto would be one of the few things that would unite Canadians.  ;)

You're right. Just as many Canadians, myself included made a point to visit NYC after 9/11 I've no doubt Canucks would set aside their hating of my hometown to help the people left living in it.
 
You guys ever heard the Arrogant Worms "Toronto Sucks" song?

"The rents too high, the airs unclean
The beaches are dirty and the people are mean
And the women are big and the men are dumb
And the children are loopy cuz they live in a slum
The water is polluted and the mayor's a dork
They dress real bad and they think they're New York
In Toron-tttoooooo, Ontariooo"
 
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