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Surprise! Another example of pay being mis-handled.

MPwannabe said:
All of these examples has gotten me kind of worried about starting my post in Borden. I pay rent at home for the Fiance, and having my pay get held back would be pretty destructive.

Then make sure you check and understand what you are being paid, and what is being deducted. If you don't know, ASK!!. Nobody is out to get you, but you are you own best friend. Stuff sometimes happens, but it gets compounded when people just shrug it off and assume it will get fixed without any input from them.
 
GAP said:
Then make sure you check and understand what you are being paid, and what is being deducted. If you don't know, ASK!!. Nobody is out to get you, but you are you own best friend. Stuff sometimes happens, but it gets compounded when people just shrug it off and assume it will get fixed without any input from them.

Great post.

I have no time for people who whine about never having money because they are paying back thousands of dollars that they were overpaid....or because they planned their lives around allowances or claims they didn't end up getting on time. You would think it would be common sense for people to ensure they are squared away, but no! If you get paid a mysteriously large amount of money...don't just assume someone likes you, go find out what the deal is! And for the love of god don't spend it!

;D

 
4Feathers said:
Bazinga my friend, 24 years of service and only minor problems that occured when deployed for me. This thread seems like an anti RMS Clerk vent/rant, when in fact, the large majority of them are working understaffed in jobs they are likely improperly trained for, while getting no love from many iRate clients. I have no time for clerks who are nothing less than professional with clients, but even less time for clients who feel they can treat the RMS staff with anything less than professionalism. An wise Chief Clerk told me once that his staff could do 1000 things right and never get noticed, but make one mistake and the whole organization is judged accordingly.

To be clear, this thread was intended about the Reserve Force pay system which is wholey not comparable to the Regular Force pay system.

The Reserve Force Pay System absolutely sucks - is constantly screwing up the livlihoods of ResF personnel ... as the rule and not the exception.

In 22 years of service, I have never had an issue with my RegF pay - not even while deployed.

Although some of my troops have suffered minor pay issues throughout my TI, those minor things are corrected very quickly unlike the Reserves that can wait months for their issues to be corrected and receive their EARNED money ... and never have I ever seen a single one of my RegF pers not receive a single damned dime for a pay period while I have watched ResF members wait months to get paid and not just when deploying. If that is caused by human error, do we find the system or the pers responsible??

I, personally, find the system that is the ResF pay system at fault - for when these faults are the standard for pay ... the issue must not be with the inputters, but the system itself. With RegF pay problems, it usually isn't the system, but human error (because they don't read stickers on the claims stating how many days CLDA will be paid etc).  By the way, I'm quite sure the career manglers stated just 2 weeks ago at their briefing that the RMS trade was green and healthy ...
 
GAP said:
Then make sure you check and understand what you are being paid, and what is being deducted. If you don't know, ASK!!. Nobody is out to get you, but you are you own best friend. Stuff sometimes happens, but it gets compounded when people just shrug it off and assume it will get fixed without any input from them.

Awesome advice, thanks. I'm going to be giving the orderly room a call in the morning regarding all of this. They would only feed me minimal information before, but since I was sworn in last week I'm sure they'll start talking to me.
 
I had the unenviable experience of not being paid for 3 months this summer while on Class B training.  Despite the system's best efforts, all that could be accomplished for me was for a cheque to be deposited in my account (without notifying me) 2 weeks before training ceased.  I got the $5000 I was owed in October, my course having finished in mid August.  I couldn't even touch the cheque money until well into September because I had no idea where it had come from (didn't say federal payment on my statement or anything) and I didn't want to spend money when I couldn't account for its origin.  Of course, when I finally got the money I was owed, it was over-taxed due to the method they use for withholding income tax.  So now I have to wait until I file my tax return to finally get the rest of my pay. 

In general, my experience  with the reserve pay system this summer was ridiculous.  I was simultaneously paying rent at my apartment in Vancouver, which proceeded to eat my savings all summer while I wasn't getting paid.  Ultimately, nobody will ever be held responsible for this dog's breakfast.  Being on course, I couldn't just walk down to orderly room whenever and stay there until it was sorted.  Never mind the fact that I could have used that money to earn interest or invest.  If I had screwed the government out of its due on my tax return, you better believe they would charge me interest until I paid it.  The whole thing was just unacceptable, but it's just accepted as the norm.  Every time I went into the orderly room all I heard were a million excuses.  This indicates to me that the system is broken, and needs fixing.

Of course I also had the usual pay problems when I went on tour: not getting paid, losing records etc.  Never mind the fight I've been engaged in to get the paltry $2000 per year that I'm entitled to from the ILP system.  I could go on, but frankly it's getting a bit tiring.  The last thing I'm going to mention is that as a reservist trying to deal with these problems, I am constantly forced to go down to the OR to try to get this stuff fixed.  I would rather get teeth pulled, but the only way to ensure that action is taken is to go there and stand over them while they do it.  Being there once a week just isn't enough to deal with this administrative quagmire.

/rant
 
I will Second umptify that the reserve pay system is buggy. I've been 'in' less then a year and already had 3 major issues with my pay each regarding a sum over 1000$ that alters my living situation greatly.
  :(
 
You know the wife is wrong I don't have Alzheimer's.  Reading this thread on Reserve Pay and I thought I'd read it all before. The magic search engine and voila:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90989/post-896439.html#msg896439

The more things change the more that they stay the same. Anyone know where they can get a batch of M-72s  >:D
 
Danjanou said:
Anyone know where they can get a batch of M-72s  >:D

Apparently they grow wild in the woods of B.C.
 
Danjanou said:
The magic search engine and voila:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90989/post-896439.html#msg896439
crap.
I searched high & low, my bad.

As an update, I drew my bank records covering the enitre length of my "service", and there was ne'er a payment matching the amount that is claimed that I owe.
And of course, when I called the number on the notice, the OR's off Dec 17 through Jan 7.

Does anyone in the Admin game have any clue as to how my "owed" amount was figured?
(an overpayment over time, perhaps?)
Keep in mind, I was strictly SWAT. No taskings, no postings, only 7 1/2 weeks of class B on BMQ/SQ.
(And after that abortion, I kept track of my hours, and my amounts due very diligently.)
I can't figure it.

HS


-edit because I'm too dumb to use the quote button properly.
 
The flip side of this is: If all the admin is going well (no problems reported) take the time to thank your clerk.

I have gone out of my way to make sure my clerk knew how I appreciated him and the fact that all our admin was always sorted out.

Sadly, HQ decided to thank him their own way: they forced him out.

I revere support trades who do their job well. A cook who makes good meals or has hot soup when you come back in the middle of the night from a miserable patrol. A clerk who ensures you get paid/receive claims on time. A supply tech who makes sure you have your entitlement and all in the right size/fit.
 
Dissident said:
The flip side of this is: If all the admin is going well (no problems reported) take the time to thank your clerk.

I revere support trades who do their job well. A cook who makes good meals or has hot soup when you come back in the middle of the night from a miserable patrol. A clerk who ensures you get paid/receive claims on time. A supply tech who makes sure you have your entitlement and all in the right size/fit.

I second this motion whole-heartedly.

Being a former LOG fella myself, (supply), I've seen lotsa folks get the poo-end of the stick, and had a little poo-taste myself now and then.

Loads of people are quick to piss all over LOG, and if that's your thing, go for it.

My frustration and plain, straight-out shock comes from the incompetence I have experienced, an incompetence that was not "trade-specific-biased".



 
Oh hey, I love this game!  ;D I've become, it seems, the unofficial junior ranks SME (catcher, not pitcher) on pay problems in my unit.

1.  Transfer to my unit in September, 2005. Parading regularly. Didn't see a lick of pay til that January.

2.  I had one of those nifty six month time credits for my Cpl's pay due to my time in cadets. When I first made Cpl it was all well and good, and they backdated my promotion effective to my six month earlier eligibility. All was well and good until I'd been a Cpl for a year. The system hiccupped, burped, soiled itself, and suddenly forward-dated my promotion again by six months, resulting in six months' worth of the difference between Pte and Cpl being taken form me. It took quite some time (and quite some documentation) to sort that one out.

3.  This is my favourite. I was sent to an instructional tasking for two and a bit months. Through some manner of shenanigans I didn't at that point in time have a valid travel claim. I was told not to worry about it, it would be faxed to the BOR at my tasking the next day (insert admiral-akbar-its-a-trap.jpg). Quick as a flash nothing happened. "OK" sez I. "Shenanigans ensue. It happens." And so began a long and sordid chain of emails to and fro my BOR. It was about the time they stopped responding that I learned I could have outlook give me read receipts on email, which helped me to isolate the problem. Turns out an individual had gone on course or tasking or some such without handing off my claim issue (or instead, simply resolving it. It's just a friggin' claim.) Noboy knew but I, and some increasingly bemused and then horrified pay clerks at my tasking. Fast forward two pay periods- at this point I've not seen a cent, which is beginning to concern me. I'm all set to start getting annoyed. I fire a few more emails off. No read receipts. I cried on my clerks' shoulder at my tasking and was told it was gaining increasing attention there, and that they were pushing on my behalf.

Then I found out my goddamned troops weren't getting paid. Not just mine, but a number more- not a single troops form my unit at that training centre that summer had yet received pay; this five weeks in for some of them. Cue berzerker rage, the commencement of a redress, the involvement at this point of the Coy 2ic at the tasking, and my unit Adjt. back home. This was compounded by my discovery that at this point I had nearly nothing available in my bank account (tucked away in savings which were not as accessible), and that my claim still had not come through- and that I couldn't get an advance! I was the senior member of my regiment (not saying much) on the ground at that place that summer, so I ended up as an impromptu go-between between all of our troops there and the ATC/Unit chains of command.

Then one day, two things happened at once. A third payday hit with de nada. And a general literally swooped in by helicopter to do one of those impromptu town halls that generals like to do sometimes at area training centres. He caught one of the other platoons, which happened to have members of my regiment in it. One of them - some years older than the other (silent) recruits, and not at all intimidated when he felt he had a rightful grievance (he did) asked the general, in perfect innocence, "Sir, when's the reserve pay system going to get fixed?" A raised eyebrow from the (Brigadier?) General, a half dozen raised hands from troops (all of the same cap badge) and some frantic scribbling on a notepad by his accompanying Major, and they were a few minutes later up, up and away by helicopter. I kinda want a helicopter.

I got an advance about 48 hours later. I later found out that simultaneously my Coy 2ic had forwarded a copy of my draft redress to my Adjt, and my CO heard from higher up that our unit had a systemic pay problem (NOT happy to hear that from above rather than below). Turns out none of our contracts had been activated - apparently literally a single mouse click. Apparently the effluence hit the oscillating ventilator, and at least one individual no longer works in our BOR. The CO also got me to write up a briefing note (a novel and intimidating experience) as essentially an AAR from the bottom end on what had gone down. So that one was fun.

4.  I just found out last week that I had been right in a sneaking suspicion for some time. This isn't a reserve problem, but it still highlights some of the issues of 'ownership' that seem to come up. I deployed on TF 3-08, and was part of the NSE, which was necessarily an amalgam unit. Due to some ambiguity about UICs or some such, it was not determined until we were actually on tour how the (then novel) LDA system would apply to us. We argued, rather forcefully, that as a force protection unit we ought to reasonably qualify for LDA (not CLDA, mind you. We were on Class C through CCPS at the time). A bunch of sage minds back home hemmed and hawed, and the RUMINT flowed. Oh did it flow. We all covetously calculated just what we figured we'd see.

So we get home post tour, a few weird and somewhat large amounts of money come and go, and we're told everything is square. "Fair enough," sez I, "so I got my LDA, right?". "Yeah, we think so... anyway, the system will reconcile everything over the next pay period or two. It's all good." I dubiously accepted that (oops) and went about my merry way, with the LDA thing still stuck in the back of my mind.

I asked about the LDA roughly quarterly at my unit, back in toon-town. "Can anyone confirm I actually got it?" I was shownthe emails sent off to someone on the reg force side of things. My CCPS account long having since gone inactive, and my clerks not having access to it, our options were limited. So a week back I asked about it having not done so in some months. Our clerk's eyes brightened- she had just finally gotten CCPS access earlier in the week. My unit sends a lot of guyson tour, so she was able to justify getting it, I guess. She pulled up my balance.

Positive $2300. I was owed my entire LDA from 12 months of workup training. I giggled, jumped around a bit, and most definitely fist pumped at least twice. The clerk, meanwhile, checked a couple of our other guys- none nearly so large (out of a small sample), but most had some positive balance.

That money, I expect, would not have ever gotten to us had someone at our end not pulled the information to check. In the new year we need to check systematically all the guys who've been over or otherwise on Cl. C to confirm no outstanding balances remain in CCPS. But they were bloody instant in contacting any of our guys who owed due to overpayments.

I also got my leaf while on tour (substantive), and never did see the pay differential from Cpl(A) to Cpl(B) (Cpl-MCpl, for those who've not squinted at pay scales and pay stubs trying to make sense of it all). Over the course of the two and a half months on class C that I was appointed MCpl, I racked up a couple hundred bucks in pay differential, but I was never made MCpl in CCPS. Apparently because my contract was originally as a Cpl, it would require finding my CO from tour to get him to sign off on something or other to authorize a retroactive amendment of the contract to reflect the change in rank (I know, appointment...). Probably not a hope in hell of that happening.





Now for my hypothesizing on what some of the contributory factors are:

As reserves, our work is sporadic and erratic. Attendance is seldom perfect, chains of command are sometimes fractured, and there seems to be a reticence to hold clerks accountable where errors are made. There is so much opportunity for error, troops are generally underinformed about how the pay system works and what they're entitled to, and, frankly, junior leaders (up to sect. comd.) level are increasingly junior these days. Some of us have learned the pay system the hard way, but many MCpls and Cpls are as much in the dark about the wonderful world of pay as the troops are. I'm able to look at any of my guys' pay records and their corresponding complaints and 'troubleshoot' about 90% of it (reconcile what can be, identify what can't) and tell them with fair confidence what their issues are- but this is because I've been through the wringer myself so many times, and because I maintain a good relationship with our clerks and pick their brain when able, as well as (with their consent) observe them fixing my pay issues so I can *understand* what the problem is/was, not just that 'was problem; now fixed (grunt)'.

Many of the others can't. I think, frankly, that maybe a half day on the PLQ course would be well devoted to teaching aspiring MCpls how the pay system actually *works*, what's supposed to happen, and every step form me showing up and signing a pay sheet, to the deposit hitting my bank account. A lot of guys simply don't know about biweekly pay runs- or what that might mean for their pay on the weekend of the 12th,13th, and 14th if the pay run happens to be mid-day on the 15th for a 31st deposit. (I might have all that offset by a day or two). Many don't even know that class A pay will naturally lag by two weeks. Many don't know how pay advances can come back and bite them in the ass, now how to calculate other allowances and entitlements. I think it should be part of our professional development as NCOs to learn precisely how the system is supposed to work, at least as a primer. That way we can help our troops to figure things out (and so teach them- this knowledge *should* be firm at the private level; hell, include the same lectures on a reserve BMQ), reduce the burden on fin clerks in the basic trouble shooting stages- and also allow us to more knowledgeably represent our troops when things get snarled.

There is a lack of ownership of part time reservists, particularly when tasked out or on class C employment- or when going back to part time from Class C. Outstanding pay issues seldom seem to get a proper handover between transitioning clerks, or people filling in while Cpl Bloggins from the BOR goes on course.

Some full time clerks on class B or on RSS either aren't aware, or forget what it's like on Class A- believing in good faith that we will get paid in a timely manner what we are owed. The 'this is a part time job; you shouldn't count on timely pay' is an enraging crock of the purest bullshit. I've never had any other job (I've had a couple) where part time pay was so poorly administered. I'm trusted not to commit fraud when I punch in at my retail job. Why can we not have a similar system in the reserves for Class A? I've heard fraud expressed as a concern- I was under the impression that that's where the court martial system fits into things. I see no reason why reserve pay ought not be digitized under the normal course of things, with paper pay sheets necessary only for unusual circumstances.

With the lack of that awareness comes in rare instances with a lack of empathy and a 'suck it up' attitude- particularly when pay problems are most likely experienced by Ptes and Cpls, and the clerks may be NCOs. Nothing throws me into greater anger generally than my troops getting screwed on pay, and particularly when there is any hint of dismissive or condescending attitude from clerks. I can't comprehend the lack of pride in some individuals that allows them to not stop-drop and immediately sort out a pay problem for a young troop relying on that money to scrape his month's rent while at school. Those most prone to pay issues often seem those most subject to them.

At the end of the day, it strikes me as a leadership issue, across a couple different parellel parts of the organization. If my troop signs a pay sheet and does't get paid, someone, somewhere has failed an there's a broken link in the chain. If another pay run later they still haven't been paid, then I as their leader have failed to get the right answer from the right person with the right authority, and someone else has failed in not addressing it from their end. And so on up the line as timelines extend. The fact that reserve pay is such a perennial bitch amongst us is indicative of a long term failure somewhere much higher up.

PLEASE NOTE- My unit is readily identifiable, and I'm NOT pointing fingers at any specific individuals, or anyone currently working there. These are generalizations from my own experiences and those of others dating back over a few years now. I've got nothing bad to say about my current clerks, or their handling of my pay. It's been a while since I've had a pay system that was caused by the reserves...




Actually, now that I've mulled it over, I'm gonna grab one of our clerks in the new year, buy them a beer, sit them down with a notepad and figure out how to develop that basic reserve pay training package, at least at a basic level, for my lads. Get it vetted by one of the clerks for accuracy, and deliver it to them. Not sure why I've not done that sooner. If I can at least have my troops knowing how things should work, what they should see, and what can go wrong, that'll make both their and my jobs easier...
 
Brihard said:
Actually, now that I've mulled it over, I'm gonna grab one of our clerks in the new year, buy them a beer, sit them down with a notepad and figure out how to develop that basic reserve pay training package, at least at a basic level, for my lads. Get it vetted by one of the clerks for accuracy, and deliver it to them. Not sure why I've not done that sooner. If I can at least have my troops knowing how things should work, what they should see, and what can go wrong, that'll make both their and my jobs easier...

Probably the best idea I've heard in a long time. Sometimes in the military, you're your own best clerk. Or Career Manager. Or RQMS. It pays to know what you're talking about, so you don't ask for what you're not entitled, and you know how long it should take (and not make unreasonable time demands).
 
PuckChaser said:
Probably the best idea I've heard in a long time. Sometimes in the military, you're your own best clerk. Or Career Manager. Or RQMS. It pays to know what you're talking about, so you don't ask for what you're not entitled, and you know how long it should take (and not make unreasonable time demands).

Yup, agreed- and thank you!

Paging any clerks familiar with reserve pay: You, as an end recipients of our various and sundry complaints, what sort of basic reserve pay acumen would you like to see troops have, in some sort of order of priority? And for that matter, I happily welcome any unsolicited, knowledgeable advice on this.
 
Brihard said:
I also got my leaf while on tour (substantive), and never did see the pay differential from Cpl(A) to Cpl(B) (Cpl-MCpl, for those who've not squinted at pay scales and pay stubs trying to make sense of it all). Over the course of the two and a half months on class C that I was appointed MCpl, I racked up a couple hundred bucks in pay differential, but I was never made MCpl in CCPS. Apparently because my contract was originally as a Cpl, it would require finding my CO from tour to get him to sign off on something or other to authorize a retroactive amendment of the contract to reflect the change in rank (I know, appointment...). Probably not a hope in hell of that happening.

Actually, I can answer to this for you.  I was the deployment support clerk for OP ATHENA back in the day, and occasionally had to do these calculations for Reservists.

If you were promoted WSE (While So Employed), that is, only while you were doing the job you were doing in theatre, then yes, the CO would've had to sign off on it and you would/should have been entitled to the MCpl pay for the duration of your tour - but ONLY while you were deployed on that position and that tour.  Upon redeployment (return from tour), you would have reverted to your substantive rank of Cpl.

Otherwise, if what you received was a home-unit-based regular substantive promotion/appointment to MCpl, it would most likely NOT affect your deployed rank or rate of pay.  When a Reserve member is screened for a specific tour position, there is an expected rank tied to that position.  The Reservist is selected based on that rank, and offered the deployment into that position at that rank.  So if you were filling a Cpl position, you were hired into the deployment as a Cpl, full stop.  If the position was Cpl/MCpl AND the deployment CO felt it appropriate, you could qualify for the WSE promotion as I detailed above.

I suspect your promotion was substantive, and therefore would have an effect on your pay the day immediately following your return from deployment, and not before.

Side note: your IPC, or incentive pay credit, during deployment will USUALLY differ from the one you enjoy during your regular Class A service.  Imagine you're typically a Cpl (4) who does the usual parade nights with the unit and a 2-3 month summer tasking each year.  Given a rank employment history like that, it's very likely you'd be offered the deployment at Cpl(0) or Cpl(1).  This is not an error.

As you know, IPC (incentive pay categories) are offered annually on the "anniversary date" of your promotion.  In the Reserves, for simplicity, you gain your next IPC for each calendar year of good standing (i.e. you didn't have any ED&T or NES time).  However, in the Reg F, and likewise for Class C, the IPC is based on each calendar year of full time service.  Therefore, a clerk must consolidate the number of days of full-time (Class B) service since you got promoted to your current rank, and add to it your Class A days divided by 4 (that's right, you get credited 1/4 time for Class A).  So someone who's been on near-constant Class Bs will probably get offered a higher IPC than his buddy who's a "weekend warrior" who does the bare minimum parading.

....Of course, even if you lose a few IPCs, you're still getting 15% more pay...plus allowances....so it's nearly impossible for a Reservist to make LESS deploying than he would staying domestic.  :2c:
 
Brihard said:
I was owed my entire LDA from 12 months of workup training. I giggled, jumped around a bit, and most definitely fist pumped at least twice. The clerk, meanwhile, checked a couple of our other guys- none nearly so large (out of a small sample), but most had some positive balance.

That money, I expect, would not have ever gotten to us had someone at our end not pulled the information to check. In the new year we need to check systematically all the guys who've been over or otherwise on Cl. C to confirm no outstanding balances remain in CCPS.

This is the reason that is is VITAL for members returning from tour to fully complete their AAG (Arrival Assistance Group) process.  Think of it as clearing back into your domestic unit and off tour.  It's not JUST about making sure you arrived with all your marbles and without any foreign diseases, there's a part of it where you are required to clear through the Reg F RELEASE CLERK.  Yes, the Release Clerk - his or her job is to finalize your claim and your CCPS account, to ensure that you are paid all monies owing to you from tour, that all pre-determined pay is stopped (freeing up your accumulated operational allowances for payment to your bank account) and to make sure you received anything you were entitled to (including leave you may not have had a chance to expend).  He or she will ensure that your CCPS account is balanced before turning you back over to your unit for RPSR to resume your pay from there.
 
I have removed my "rant", because it is a fact, no, no one is a moron, but far too often people are hitting the clerks on this one, it's never the members responsibility, and it's grown to be a tiring issue.

I sincerely rescind my conversation and shall return to my desk to and continue to be "just the clerk".

Cheers!
 
FreeFloat said:
Actually, I can answer to this for you.  I was the deployment support clerk for OP ATHENA back in the day, and occasionally had to do these calculations for Reservists.

If ....you would/should have been entitled to the MCpl pay for the duration of your tour - but ONLY while you were deployed on that position and that tour.  Upon redeployment (return from tour), you would have reverted to your substantive rank of Cpl.

Otherwise, if w....it would most likely NOT affect your deployed rank or rate of pay. 


////When a Reserve member is screened for a specific tour position, there is an expected rank tied to that position.  The Reservist is selected based on that rank, and offered the deployment into that position at that rank.  So if you were filling a Cpl position, you were hired into the deployment as a Cpl, full stop....
Can RegF mbrs accept lower ranked posns as well?  For example: if they were as anxious to be deployed & this was the only possibility to fill a lower ranked slot?
 
justmyalias said:
Can RegF mbrs accept lower ranked posns as well?  For example: if they were as anxious to be deployed & this was the only possibility to fill a lower ranked slot?

Generally not.
 
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