Somehow a Fitness Thread from a "Kiwi shoe polish" Thread

[childs56]

Well not true, the USMC has the same standard for its air craft technicians as it does its infantry.

They also are once force expected to be a expeditionary force that looks after itself, they all take IFT then specialize in trades. We dont do this here.
We are a Navy, Army and Airforce. Three separate entities they tried to combine but non are on the same page as the other.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Are you trying to re-rail a derailed thread? Good luck with that!

You are correct, I should know better, but I can split it up into two threads and see what happens.

 

[Quirky]

Fortunately I’ve already accounted for the real operationally relevant physical risks to RCAF personnel farther upthread, and have related them to actual threats in an actual ongoing war.

All of which are far reaching hypotheticals based off highly remote possibilities for nearly all RCAF or RCN personnel. The majority will never face such a situation in their career, even if they reach pension. Designing a test, even with its low minimum standard to achieve, around these hypotheticals which have career ending implications only do more harm than good to the overall picture. All your scenarios can still be accomplished by someone who still fails the established lifting and dragged timed prerequisites of the test, failing the minimum standard does not make them unemployable in their trade.

 

[brihard]

All of which are far reaching hypotheticals based off highly remote possibilities for nearly all RCAF or RCN personnel. The majority will never face such a situation in their career, even if they reach pension. Designing a test, even with its low minimum standard to achieve, around these hypotheticals which have career ending implications only do more harm than good to the overall picture. All your scenarios can still be accomplished by someone who still fails the established lifting and dragged timed prerequisites of the test, failing the minimum standard does not make them unemployable in their trade.

Stop pretending some portions of our Air Force are military then, I guess? Or go work for Air Canada? Everything I’m talking about is merely basic functional fitness. If doing a FORCE test is leading to career ending injuries, that sucks for the very rare member it’ll be the case for, and I’ll be happy to help them access assistance in doing a VAC claim. I’d also be wondering how their chain of command tolerated them have such a low degree of fitness that they not only can’t pass a FORCE test, but majorly disable themselves in doing so. That’s a leadership failure.

The military has a bona fide occupational requirement for a basic level of functional fitness. That’s not an army thing, that’s a being part of what your country relies on in its defence thing. If FORCE is as easy to pass as you say (and I agree it’s not hard), then I have no real sympathy for those who, outside of some sort of external medical reason, are so unfit that trying it breaks them. We all knew the expectations when we joined.

 

[Furniture]

All of which are far reaching hypotheticals based off highly remote possibilities for nearly all RCAF or RCN personnel. The majority will never face such a situation in their career, even if they reach pension. Designing a test, even with its low minimum standard to achieve, around these hypotheticals which have career ending implications only do more harm than good to the overall picture. All your scenarios can still be accomplished by someone who still fails the established lifting and dragged timed prerequisites of the test, failing the minimum standard does not make them unemployable in their trade.

Just because a war hasn't happened during your career does not mean we should stop being prepared for war...

Failing to meet UoS makes someone unemployable in the CAF. A requirement to meet UoS is to be able to meet the minimum fitness standards. Ergo, someone who can't do the FORCE test is unemployable in their trade.

Edit: Now that this is officially a fitness thread, it's time to discuss how silly wearing hats is...

 

[dimsum]

All of which are far reaching hypotheticals based off highly remote possibilities for nearly all RCAF or RCN personnel. The majority will never face such a situation in their career, even if they reach pension.

Then think of it like insurance? The majority of us won’t total our car, but it’d be nice to have something in place if it should happen.

The majority of us won’t drag a casualty out, but it’d be nice to know that you can do it if it happens.

 

[Quirky]

The majority of us won’t drag a casualty out, but it’d be nice to know that you can do it if it happens.

Fun fact: some bases use friction mats for the drags while others just do it on the gym floor.

 

[ModlrMike]

Despite the fact that we call ourselves RCN, RCAF, and CA, we are a single, unified force. That's why our L1s are subordinate to the L0. A unified force needs a unified standard, and that means that the BFORs and the Common Military Tasks are our guiding principles. The FORCE derives from them.

To quote a famous TV show "your agreement isn't required, your compliance is."

 

[FSTO]

Despite the fact that we call ourselves RCN, RCAF, and CA, we are a single, unified force. That's why our L1s are subordinate to the L0. A unified force needs a unified standard, and that means that the BFORs and the Common Military Tasks are our guiding principles. The FORCE derives from them.

To quote a famous TV show "your agreement isn't required, your compliance is."

The NDA says that, and administratively we are set up as a unified force. But mentally, physically, and arguably operationally we are no where close to that ideal.

 

[brihard]

Fun fact: some bases use friction mats for the drags while others just do it on the gym floor.

Fun fact: the FORCE test criteria approve multiple floor surfaces, disapprove others, and specifcy a precise way of measuring the drag and adjusting the sandbag weight necessary to achieve it. See page 115 of the FORCE test manual: https://cfmws.ca/CFMWS/media/images...ft_OP-Force-Manuals-2023_English_12042023.pdf

If the test is being conducted as prescribed, differences in flooring friction are accounted for.

 

[childs56]

Excellent rebuttals. As it stands the force test was developed by a joint group from a CA, RCN, and RCAF in common tasks. Which task isn’t navy applicable ?

Not at all true. I’m of course assuming IFT stands for infantry here, but the USMC does boot camp, which is not infantry training, and then specialized MOS training after. Another example would be the US Army where the boat operators do the same test as the Chaplains Assistants as the Infantry.

They do Basic, then Infantry training of either 52 days Infantry MOS or 29 days non Infantry MOS.

Also not true, we are a unified service with members who get move from place to place.

Yup a stoker goes from Halifax to Esquimalt but usually to a Navel Base. Not sure how many Stokers, NWT, Sonar Ops get posted to Shilo, Petawawa, Wainwright, even Gagetown for that matter. Maybe they go there for their reasons but more then likely outside of their trade if they do. .

While work up has become the expectation, it’s a crutch and we are actively trying to shorten that time.

Workups have to happen in some capacity no matter what level of training or experience you have. When you piece meal battle groups together robbing from across to staff your positions it makes it hard to be able to expediently deploy.

 

[dimsum]

Fun fact: some bases use friction mats for the drags while others just do it on the gym floor.

Absolutely - it’s to ensure that the drag is the same standard. Have you seen how the PSP staff test it?

If the friction mat isn’t enough, they will add a bag (I’ve seen two) as well.

 

[dimsum]

The NDA says that, and administratively we are set up as a unified force. But mentally, physically, and arguably operationally we are no where close to that ideal.

Even the USMC isn’t as “unified” as it sells itself to be. They may say “once a Marine, always a Marine” but within the USMC, there are still sub-groups that don’t necessarily play nice with each other.

I would be interested to know whether a Marine pilot feels culturally closer to an USAF or USN pilot, or closer to a Marine non-aircrew officer.

 

[Quirky]

Absolutely - it’s to ensure that the drag is the same standard. Have you seen how the PSP staff test it?

If the friction mat isn’t enough, they will add a bag (I’ve seen two) as well.

Yes the friction should be a certain standard, regardless of the weight dragged.

 

[FSTO]

Even the USMC isn’t as “unified” as it sells itself to be. They may say “once a Marine, always a Marine” but within the USMC, there are still sub-groups that don’t necessarily play nice with each other.

I would be interested to know whether a Marine pilot feels culturally closer to an USAF or USN pilot, or closer to a Marine non-aircrew officer.

The “Gator Navy” is likely the most unified force on the planet. The USN sails the Amphibs with all the sailors required to operate a ship while the Marines supply and support the troops and aircraft held on board.

 

[FSTO]

would be interested to know whether a Marine pilot feels culturally closer to an USAF or USN pilot, or closer to a Marine non-aircrew officer.

Well Marine Officers go to Annapolis so I would think the ones who go pilot are much more culturally Navy than USAF.

 

[dimsum]

Well Marine Officers go to Annapolis so I would think the ones who go pilot are much more culturally Navy than USAF.

According to this article, less than 20% of US military officers go through service academies like Annapolis.

 

[FSTO]

According to this article, less than 20% of US military officers go through service academies like Annapolis.

Cool. But I’d maintain that USMC Pilots are more maritime than USAF Pilots.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just because a war hasn't happened during your career does not mean we should stop being prepared for war...

Failing to meet UoS makes someone unemployable in the CAF. A requirement to meet UoS is to be able to meet the minimum fitness standards. Ergo, someone who can't do the FORCE test is unemployable in their trade.

Edit: Now that this is officially a fitness thread, it's time to discuss how silly wearing hats is...

Just a pedantic point, the Force test prepares no one for war. We spend months working people up before we send them into SDAs (Special Duty Areas). The Force test is a physical fitness test. While part of it is not the sum total.

As for the UoS and all that jazz, the sticking point is finding a practical application for the different stages of the Force test. And unless you are a green weenie chances are not much of it applies to you and it's just another nauseating task we have to complete every year.

Hence why I would suggest for the RCN some form of Fireman's test. It has excellent practical application and, as you and I can both attest, bunker gear, Dragger, a charged firehose will test anyone's fitness. Throw in some CASEVAC and ladder climbs and you have yourself a pretty sweet little fitness test, that's also providing some reasonable applications that will help to express to th participant that this is not just an exercise in nuisance it's also part of being a sailor.

I've no experience in th RCAF so I won't pretend to comment on what could work for them. But having time as a green weenie myself and a navy puke; and purple I can safely express that the Force test is pointless. So pointless even the Army went and put their own Army spin on it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Despite the fact that we call ourselves RCN, RCAF, and CA, we are a single, unified force. That's why our L1s are subordinate to the L0. A unified force needs a unified standard, and that means that the BFORs and the Common Military Tasks are our guiding principles. The FORCE derives from them.

Mmm... Sure for us who are purple, by for the hard element guys we are most definitely a Navy, Army and Air Force.

And no, passed basic and some specific QL3 courses, we don't need a unified standard. In fact I would argue we'd be further ahead fully accepting unification is a failure and finally rid ourselves of its remaining trappings.

Hell even my purpleness is in danger as I'm in the RCN stream.