Somehow a Fitness Thread from a "Kiwi shoe polish" Thread

[Quirky]

That’s because it’s usually the old and the bold complaining about the loss of what they perceived to be very important in 1975

Hell ya, relaxed fitness and dress standards, I like where the new CAF is going.

 

[markppcli]

Hell ya, relaxed fitness and dress standards, I like where the new CAF is going.

Did we relax fitness standards? Or did we just decide that walking for two hours wasn’t really a great test of combat fitness?

And yeah, relaxing hair regs is probably an over reaction, but it’s hardly this sky is falling apocalyptic event some make it out to be.

Lastly none of this had anything to do with what I was commenting g about, which @dimsum and @brihard did a much better job of summarizing why the Facebook comments section is probably the worst place to determine policy effectiveness from.

 

[Quirky]

Did we relax fitness standards? Or did we just decide that walking for two hours wasn’t really a great test of combat fitness?

The Force test yes. The minimum standard is a joke.

 

[markppcli]

The Force test yes. The minimum standard is a joke.

So was the BFT, and it had no actual basis as a test. I wouldn’t call it a drop, it’s a shift to a more science based standard. The standard is low though I agree.

 

[Haggis]

The Force test yes. The minimum standard is a joke.

The FORCE test is an improvement over the EXPRES test. The BFT wasn't a fitness test as much as it was a test of pain management and intestinal fortitude. The fact that a number of members of any given unit were walking around the day after the BFT looking like a seniors residence indicates that your unit is not fit.

 

[brihard]

Are there any combat arms units that train PT simply to the lowest needed standard? Or are the troops still getting pushed considerably harder than that like they’ve always been?

 

[Quirky]

The FORCE test is an improvement over the EXPRES test.

In what way.

 

[markppcli]

In what way.

It’s based on job related tasks not an arbitrary collections of task with little military application. For example I’m fare more interested in how rapidly you get up and sprint than I am in if you can pump out a whopping 19 push ups. I’d hesitate to add that letting people not get tested is a very questionable reward. And finally the express test was often skipped and we just did a BFT, as it could be swapped out.

Are there any combat arms units that train PT simply to the lowest needed standard? Or are the troops still getting pushed considerably harder than that like they’ve always been?

None that I’ve seen. I agree the standard of the test is very low, but yeah no one is training to it.

 

[dimsum]

In what way.

Well, for someone like me (slim and short), the EXPRES test was a joke. It was all cardio, or body-weight, stuff. I could, and have, gotten incentive 12 hours after being ordered to do it while not having gone to the gym or a run in months.

I actually need to do regular strength training at the gym to get any more than Green on the FORCE test at my age bracket.

 

[Quirky]

It’s based on job related tasks not an arbitrary collections of task with little military application. For example I’m fare more interested in how rapidly you get up and sprint than I am in if you can pump out a whopping 19 push ups.

In what way does lifting sandbags, carrying/dragging sandbags, duck and covering apply to the RCAF.

 

[Furniture]

In what way does lifting sandbags, carrying/dragging sandbags, duck and covering apply to the RCAF.

So you're arguing that the RCAF needs an even lower standard?

If lifting sand bags and getting up off the floor are not applicable, I fail to see how sprinting, push-ups, and grip strength are.

 

[dapaterson]

In what way does lifting sandbags, carrying/dragging sandbags, duck and covering apply to the RCAF.

Universality of Service is a thing.

 

[dimsum]

In what way does lifting sandbags, carrying/dragging sandbags, duck and covering apply to the RCAF.

Uh, ever lift any tool bags or kit bags to a flatbed of a truck?

The drag is relevant to drag someone out of a dangerous situation - the requirement to drag backwards is dumb, but the physical strength to do it is a minimum requirement.

So you're arguing that the RCAF needs an even lower standard?

If lifting sand bags and getting up off the floor are not applicable, I fail to see how sprinting, push-ups, and grip strength are.

To this day I have no idea why the grip strength test had any relevance. I could sort of see the value in the other tests.

 

[Quirky]

If lifting sand bags and getting up off the floor are not applicable, I fail to see how sprinting, push-ups, and grip strength are.

I fail to see how lifting and dragging sand bags is applicable to the RCAF, when the FORCE test was created for "job related" tasks which clearly are all Army centric.

RCAF needs higher fitness standards in cardio and strength.

The drag is relevant to drag someone out of a dangerous situation - the requirement to drag backwards is dumb, but the physical strength to do it is a minimum requirement.

That happens a lot throughout the career of a RCAF member?

Universality of Service is a thing.

Universality of service around the Army you mean.

 

[markppcli]

In what way does lifting sandbags, carrying/dragging sandbags, duck and covering apply to the RCAF.

Dragging sand bags is a casualty extraction - believe it or not in major combat operations the RCAF could take casualties, or alternatively any number of vehicle or work place accidents can occur in which you ought to be able to move your fellow aviator to safety.

Similarly the dashes, not sure how you got ducking out of that but we shall carry on, reflect the ability to move to cover. We had RCAF pers on KAF when it got attacked, including by ground forces, I presume we want those personnel to be fit enough to seek cover.

Sand bag pick up are about loading stores… like I dunno ammunition or other heavy stores. I’m assuming AVN techs do that? Or anyone does that when they get resupplied.

Do we need to keep going or have we arrived at a point where you can stop jumping topic to topic and being wrong each time?

 

[markppcli]

I fail to see how lifting and dragging sand bags is applicable to the RCAF, when the FORCE test was created for "job related" tasks which clearly are all Army centric.

RCAF needs higher fitness standards in cardio and strength.



That happens a lot throughout the career of a RCAF member?

Do we shoot down planes regularly? Better get rid of our missiles.

 

[Quirky]

Dragging sand bags is a casualty extraction - believe it or not in major combat operations the RCAF could take casualties, or alternatively any number of vehicle or work place accidents can occur in which you ought to be able to move your fellow aviator to safety.

Similarly the dashes, not sure how you got ducking out of that but we shall carry on, reflect the ability to move to cover. We had RCAF pers on KAF when it got attacked, including by ground forces, I presume we want those personnel to be fit enough to seek cover.

Sand bag pick up are about loading stores… like I dunno ammunition or other heavy stores. I’m assuming AVN techs do that? Or anyone does that when they get resupplied.

Do we need to keep going or have we arrived at a point where you can stop jumping topic to topic and being wrong each time?

Those are all assumptions and all remote possibilities for anyone in the RCAF. Either way, people still have issues meeting the minimum standard of it, which is the real problem.

 

[markppcli]

Those are all assumptions and all remote possibilities for anyone in the RCAF. Either way, people still have issues meeting the minimum standard of it, which is the real problem.

Yes I assume we need to be ready for combat operations across the board. I think that’s probably a good assumption to make when preparing for…. Combat operations.

 

[MJP]

I fail to see how lifting and dragging sand bags is applicable to the RCAF, when the FORCE test was created for "job related" tasks which clearly are all Army centric.

RCAF needs higher fitness standards in cardio and strength.



That happens a lot throughout the career of a RCAF member?



Universality of service around the Army you mean.

We have circled this one before. The EXPRES test had little correlation to the six Common Military Tasks which are a common standard for all members of the CAF regardless of trade, age or gender. The FORCE test is scientifically correlated to that actual standard unlike the Expres which had little correlation to them. Hard to kick someone out for not meeting the standard if your standard isn't linked to the Bona Fide Occupational Requirements.


CAF L1s are free to create their own tests to encourage physical fitness standards that better meet their environments needs including more stringent testing/standards for certain courses or trades, just the CA did with combat FORCE. Lots of examples out there were some one has taken the time to create more stringent standards.

 

[dimsum]

Those are all assumptions and all remote possibilities for anyone in the RCAF. Either way, people still have issues meeting the minimum standard of it, which is the real problem.

Isn’t the point of all of that to be able to do something if/when the need arises? Realizing you’re not strong enough to drag a casualty isn’t something you want to know during game time.

RCAF folks pick up things equivalent to the weight of sandbags frequently. Maybe not in your community, but Tac Hel folks work with the Army and Maritime Helicopter folks work with the Navy, where storing ship is a thing. Also, RCAF Loadmasters and Flight Engineers definitely pick up 20kg loads and move them around before and after flights.

It’s strange that you argue that RCAF needs more cardio and strength, but dismiss the FORCE test, which was a far better test of strength than the EXPRES test.