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Soldiers accused of stealing from fellow CF members

Springroll said:
They should have kept this tight lipped and dealt with them they way they should be dealt with....
You know, accidents happen all the time  >:D

Well, it's been known to happen, but we all know its not the way to go.

In another thread we recently discussed the need for formal parades (summary: many thought spending days to prepare for and do a change of command parade was a waste: I agree). IMHO dealing with thieves merits a parade. We have to go back to the good old days:

After a short, and sometimes fair, trial, the guilty bastard is very quick-marched to the front of the unit, assembled on parade, stripped of rank, medals, badges or any other regimental regalia and his cap placed back on backwards while the charges he was guilty of a read aloud for all to hear and the word "GUILTY" pronounced clearly after each count. Then turned about and very-quick marched off to camp Ed.

That's how to deal with this.
 
Or, and this is just a WAG here, they're not gangsters at all, and just a couple of thieving sentient manure spreaders who tried to make some easy money.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
IMHO dealing with thieves merits a parade. We have to go back to the good old days:
After a short, and sometimes fair, trial, the guilty bastard is very quick-marched to the front of the unit, assembled on parade, stripped of rank, medals, badges or any other regimental regalia and his cap placed back on backwards while the charges he was guilty of a read aloud for all to hear and the word "GUILTY" pronounced clearly after each count. Then turned about and very-quick marched off to camp Ed.

That's how to deal with this.

[Morris Island South Carolina. The rogues march drumming a thief out of camp] Date: c. 1863:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldeyankee/2726751894/in/photostream

Modern times on civvy street:
http://www.funnyphotos.net.au/images/i-am-a-thief-i-stole-from-walmart-shoplifting-sign1.jpg

Edit to add:
"All suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law."
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
After a short, and sometimes fair, trial, the guilty ******* is very quick-marched to the front of the unit, assembled on parade, stripped of rank, medals, badges or any other regimental regalia and his cap placed back on backwards while the charges he was guilty of a read aloud for all to hear and the word "GUILTY" pronounced clearly after each count. Then turned about and very-quick marched off to camp Ed.

I really like this, alot!
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, it's been known to happen, but we all know its not the way to go.

In another thread we recently discussed the need for formal parades (summary: many thought spending days to prepare for and do a change of command parade was a waste: I agree). IMHO dealing with thieves merits a parade. We have to go back to the good old days:

After a short, and sometimes fair, trial, the guilty ******* is very quick-marched to the front of the unit, assembled on parade, stripped of rank, medals, badges or any other regimental regalia and his cap placed back on backwards while the charges he was guilty of a read aloud for all to hear and the word "GUILTY" pronounced clearly after each count. Then turned about and very-quick marched off to camp Ed.

That's how to deal with this.

Agreed.
 
All stations this is Jimbo:

This is the year 2011. The days of "blanket parties" and "burn the witch" style Summary Trials went out eons ago.

All accused are innocent til proven guilty. Try any of your types of justice and you'll be the ones on trial.

Message ends

Out
 
Send then to Alert for a couple of months.  >:D

EDIT: If found guilty.

;D
 
HavokFour said:
Send then to Alert for a couple of months.  >:D
Why ?

We need quality people to work up there and i'm sure they don't want theives around either.

We have a prison and CFS Alert isn't it.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Why ?

We need quality people to work up there and i'm sure they don't want theives around either.

We have a prison and CFS Alert isn't it.

Why not move the prison TO Alert? Go ahead, try escaping.... I DARE you.  ;D
 
Jim Seggie said:
All stations this is Jimbo:

This is the year 2011. The days of "blanket parties" and "burn the witch" style Summary Trials went out eons ago.

All accused are innocent til proven guilty. Try any of your types of justice and you'll be the ones on trial.

Message ends

Out


Well said, Jim.

I served in the "old Army," it was fun, there were a bunch of good fellows back then and yes, some things were a bit rough and ready and yes again, some rough justice was meted out to barrack room thieves.

Fast forward 20 years from the time I was a young soldier to a time, 30 years ago, when I was a commanding officer. A soldier was accused of theft (in barracks) I did, as QR&Os required, investigate the charge - quickly but thoroughly, and determined that the charge was "good and proper." The RSM (a man from the same "old Army" as mine) and I had a chat and we agreed that the summary trial would be conducted early the next morning and that, since the superintending clerk had already been hard at work, he could be on his way to Trenton for a flight to Edmonton within hours - should I award him some time in detention. There was no rough stuff, no publicity, no retribution, just swift, fair military justice.

Later, I explained to some soldiers - I used to practice "management by wandering about" - that the soldier, like every soldier who ended up in the Service Detention Barracks, represented a "system" failure. We are not supposed to recruit weak willed people, we have tests and we employ psychologists to screen out less than desirable people. Recruit training is supposed to instill discipline and service in a unit is supposed to transform that into self discipline and strengthen the bonds of fellowship that make barrack room theft rare. Thus, when I sent a soldier to Edmonton I was announcing that we, the military leadership, had made another mistake. We all hoped that the repeat of the recruit syllabus, which is what Edmonton does used to do (maybe still does) is supposed to correct training mistakes - that's why many soldiers came back from detention and resumed good, productive careers, we 'fixed' our mistake; release was used to correct recruiting and selection mistakes, where retraining could not solve the problem.

I also explained that in the "old Army" there were, normally, two men on (separate) orders parades: the thief and the victim. The victim was charged if he had left his locker or barrack box unlocked; the theory, based on centuries of experience, was that a lock, even a small lock, keeps a weak willed man honest; and standing orders required lockers and barrack boxes to be secured. The "new Army" - the one 30 years ago  :) - allowed things like TVs and stereo systems in barrack room (and soldiers had the money to buy them) so we didn't have a "everything locked up" rule and more.
 
In the old army...at least the Brit one...dealing with a thief caught stealing in the shacks often never made it to a charge (or the official radar of the CoC)...I only know of one instance in this case early in my post basic career (1979) - where a thief was caught (in my troop) and admitted what he had done.

'Barrack room' justice was served, his arm tied to the banister which was then given a wack with the heavy oak handle from a floor bumper....of course his arm broke.

I served 9 years in the Brits, and this is the only instance of theft I personally was aware of.

The British Army of the 70s early 80s was a different beast in many respects from their army of today, with which I am also acquainted. 

In closing, for the younger members, let the system deal with the accused....nuff said.
 
With Jim and Mr Campbell on this one.  As much as I would like these two dealt with it has to be done correctly. Hopefully in this case it will include a one way out the door.

 
CountDC said:
With Jim and Mr Campbell on this one.  As much as I would like these two dealt with it has to be done correctly. Hopefully in this case it will include a one way out the door.

Not only justice must be done, it must be seen to be done.

We try to choose a known "talker" as the escort to the accused. Also, Summary Trials are supposed to be published in ROs.
 
Jim Seggie said:
Not only justice must be done, it must be seen to be done.

We try to choose a known "talker" as the escort to the accused. Also, Summary Trials are supposed to be published in ROs.

Way back when, closer to the stone age than the space age I'm afraid, we had a useful thing called Part II Orders* - everything that really mattered to everyone was published for all the world to see: pay raises, promotions, demotions, punishments, postings, attachments and on and on and on. Everyone could see pretty much everything - it helped keep rumours down and discouraged internal to the unit BS.


_____
* Part I Orders were roughly the same as today's ROs
 
Jim Seggie said:
Not only justice must be done, it must be seen to be done.

We try to choose a known "talker" as the escort to the accused. Also, Summary Trials are supposed to be published in ROs.

Could not agree more, Jim. I did not propose that with dispense with proper military trial.

But the "seen to be done" part is where, in the Navy, it was customary to hold the type of parade I mention. It's a leftover from the old days of sail when the whole ship's company was mustered amidships to witness any punishment meted out under the Articles of War.

I recall having to attend at least one of those parades at the Dockyard, in Esquimalt as a young seaman, when a Leading Seaman was so marched off to Edmonton after being found guilty of possession of narcotics. I can tell you that it makes a strong impression on a young member of the military such as I was then.

AS for the "locker box padlock" thing, ERC, I cannot comment on army matters, but I can tell you  that I have never locked my cabin or even my locker in my cabin on any ship I served on. It has been pointed out to me from time to time but I have always answered that I would quit the Navy the day I felt I needed to lock it up. I have not had to quit :) .
 
ERC:
Part II Orders* - everything that really mattered to everyone was published for all the world to see....

I believe the Part II Orders did not detail, straight forwardly, commissioned officer misdeeds. The "punishment" was indicated in Part I Orders.
 
Part I Orders was/is over the pond for day to day unit routine/activities and Part II orders reflecting other admin nause/postings/courses/awards and punishments....  :yellow:
 
Rifleman62 said:
ERC:
I believe the Part II Orders did not detail, straight forwardly, commissioned officer misdeeds. The "punishment" was indicated in Part I Orders.


Officers' minor misdeeds were, indeed, visible in Part I Orders via the Orderly Officer roster but, and I may be mistaken, things that had to be actioned by someone else (another, maybe higher HQ), like recording a reprimand or a fine, had to be in Part II Orders, no matter what the rank of the person involved.

As to "straight forwardly," as I recall - and it was 40+ years ago, all that was shown, for all ranks, was a reference to the article in QR (Army) under which a conviction had been registered - but units being units, and gossip being gossip, it wasn't hard to connect all the dots. I don't recall getting any formal punishments as an officer and by the time I was a CO Part II Orders and the fairly simple, reliable and economical administrative system they represented was long gone, replaced by complex, cumbersome, computer-aided mayhem.
 
I beleive Mr. Campbell is referring to in Part I Orders, Duties, where one's name appears with "monotonous regularity".

Mine did, as did several other very senior MWOs and CWOs who were then Sgts/WOs.

When one found an officer's name appearing with "monotonous regularity", it was usually the subject of some talk about what the offending young officer had done in the Officers Mess.

I did see a Pioneer Platoon Commander one day sporting some very black eyes. The CO "counselled" him.
 
When I was a young Sapper, I participated in a fair few orders parades, both avec and sans headddress.  At the end the RSM would march us back out into the hallway, and would yell out at the top of his substantial lungs "THE OFFENDER HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF THE FOLLOWING CHARGES, AND IS AWARDED XX DAYS DETENTION/CB/EW&D".  there was no scuttlebut about what he/I got as punishment.
 
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