So You Want to be Charles Atlas

[Ascendant]

Summed up, here are the points I've been arguing this thread:

1) Every person in the military (especially those in combat positions) should know and perform heavy compounds lifts to build strength.
2) Doing weighted sit ups, push ups and chin ups will only make you stronger and better at the unweighted variations.
3) You gain still train for strength while maintaining and/or improving muscle conditioning and cardio.

Trackman, no hard feelings here, but:

1. A 245 clean is not that impressive.
2. At 185 BW, I highly doubt you can perform a full, proper squat with 455 once. Claiming three sets of five is utterly ridiculous. That would put your max somewhere around 550-570. There's nothing to even say about that, other than it's an absolutely ridiculous claim.
3. 265 bench is decent, but nothing special. Is that to the chest? Last year, the highest raw bench in the 181 class at IPF Worlds was 562. The guy weighed 180.

If you'd like to discuss any of those, feel free to shoot me a PM, so this thread isn't locked down again.

 

[Ascendant]

But don't be clouded by the notion that you can't develop a mixture of strength and fitness without touching weights for the majority of your workout.

It's been made quite clear what the base level of fitness for the military is, and how to achieve it.

This thread has evolved into discussing how sometimes, that is simply not adequate for some military personnel and could stand to be improved.

 

[Runnalls]

Heavy lifting is where its at.  That builds true strength.

Push and pull, compound lifting, working with heavy weight.

I train in and around all kinds of military members in Ottawa, and maybee its the fact that they are just desk jockeys for the most part, but good lord 90% of them need some serious coaching when it comes to strength.

 

[Dou You]

2. At 185 BW, I highly doubt you can perform a full, proper squat with 455 once. Claiming three sets of five is utterly ridiculous. That would put your max somewhere around 550-570. There's nothing to even say about that, other than it's an absolutely ridiculous claim.

I believe Trackman was caught on tape performing a set of his "squats"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPVueWS8_aw
Sorry, I had to  .

All jokes aside though, compound exercises incorporate the most muscle activation throughout the body as a whole during the movement. More "total body activation" equals more "total body strength". Not to mention that most compound lifts are more specific to everyday lifting. Push-ups are a great exercise, however, when is this used in every day lifting or pressing? Maybe once in a while you will find yourself on your back with a heavy object laying on top of you, then a push-up MAY come in handy...however, will you press this heavy object off and on to your body 19 times  (the CF minimum requirement of push-ups for males, I believe) before actually trying to press it off of you? No. You will push it up and off of you just once. So why train yourself to do push-ups (19 or more times) when strength training with a proper bench press would help you much more in this situation?

I know the above situation may happen rarely, so it brings me to my second point. During the day most lifiting/pressing for both civilian and military personnel wouldn't be with your chest, it would be mostly with your legs and back, and for overhead pressing/pushing, your shoulders as well. So the core compound exercises, which are the squat, deadlift, and military press (the three Kratos mentioned everyone should know) would be a much more superior tool for training for everyday lifting in the military. To me these three lifts should be the core of any training program, with a mix of other compound lifts, isolation lifts, body-weight lifts (such as push-ups, pull-ups, and dips), speed/agility exercises, and cardio to fill in the rest of the program. This in all would build the "Tactical Athlete" (an amazing term by the way  :nod the military should desire. I believe the key to military training should be balance, but the most important exercises in it should be the three key compound exercises.

To conclude, I have not been on any military training program yet and I am not claiming I know what the military should change with regards to training. After all I have not participated in any military program and, for now, I'm just a civilian looking in. I just really love discussions on training, and if not for the love of flying, I would have a pursued a career in the business of athletic training through my Kinesiology degree. I just wanted to put my two cents in, and hopefully once I am in the military and have more experience with the training of it's members I can include more..."cents?".  ;D

Cheers!

 

[Runnalls]

I know the above situation may happen rarely, so it brings me to my second point. During the day most lifiting/pressing for both civilian and military personnel wouldn't be with your chest, it would be mostly with your legs and back, and for overhead pressing/pushing, your shoulders as well. So the core compound exercises, which are the squat, deadlift, and military press (the three Kratos mentioned everyone should know) would be a much more superior tool for training for everyday lifting in the military. To me these three lifts should be the core of any training program, with a mix of other compound lifts, isolation lifts, body-weight lifts (such as push-ups, pull-ups, and dips), speed/agility exercises, and cardio to fill in the rest of the program. This in all would build the "Tactical Athlete" (an amazing term by the way  :nod the military should desire. I believe the key to military training should be balance, but the most important exercises in it should be the three key compound exercises.

Cheers!

4 compound excercises!! You can't leave the bench press off that list of compound excercises.  Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift.  It shouldn't be trained every day, let alone every week.  If you really want to find a great strength training program that still allows you to pile on exhuberrent amounts of conditioninig through running distance and sprinting everyone should google "Wendler 5-3-1". 

 

[Dou You]

4 compound excercises!! You can't leave the bench press off that list of compound excercises.  Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift. 

I most definitely know that the Bench Press is a compound lift, and that is why I recommended it over push-ups  . I started out by talking about compound lifts and I assumed that everyone reading the post would realize that I was telling them it is indeed a compound lift once I recommended it over push-ups. However, to clarify my second point, lifting during a typical day doesn't include perpendicular lifts and presses to your chest that often. If you think about it, if something heavy needed to be pushed in to a wall perpendicular to the floor,you wouldn't stand in an upright bench press position to push it in would you? No, you would make yourself perpendicular by bending at the knees and hips, and staggering your feet (mainly using your legs to push it in), which then brings your arms up above your head (simulating the military press). Although the bench press is an extremely valuable tool for total body strength as you mentioned, it is not as applicable to typical daily activities as the squat, deadlift, and military press are. That was the point I wanted to get across.

It shouldn't be trained every day, let alone every week. 

As for the bit on training these exercises everyday, anyone would be foolish to suggest that! I think there was a misunderstanding. I didn't mean "everyday lifting" as doing these lifts every day; I meant it as the typical daily lifting/pressing one undergoes during their job,work around the house, etc. My bad if it was confusing...

Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift. 

I'm not a Grad...yet  . I'm only two years into the process (3 more to go). I just love training conversations, and training in general, and I couldn't miss out on this one!  :nod:

 

[eSample2K7]

Strengh cannot be gained in the few months before basic training. Doing 8 to 12 reps is the ideal time for a muscle to be under stress to spark muscle growth and protein synthesis. Strengh is gained by lifting heavy. Theres no two ways about is. Use a pyramid system. This is where you start at around 50% of your max for around 10 reps. Every set add weight until your at your max and do 2 to 3 sets of 1 or 2 reps. This is seriously how get strong. And with strengh will come the size you want. Eat more than you ever have and incorporate the 4 best moves for strengh and mass. Bench press, squat, deadlift, and military press. These excersizes incorparate the most muscle fibers. And as much as cardio is incredibly important in the forces, for a 6,3 160 pound you have to cut out cardio COMPLETELY or I promise you you will not gain. I was in the same situation and I gained nearly 30 pounds. Cardio after you get your desired size

 

[Ascendant]

Strengh cannot be gained in the few months before basic training. Doing 8 to 12 reps is the ideal time for a muscle to be under stress to spark muscle growth and protein synthesis. Strengh is gained by lifting heavy. Theres no two ways about is. Use a pyramid system. This is where you start at around 50% of your max for around 10 reps. Every set add weight until your at your max and do 2 to 3 sets of 1 or 2 reps. This is seriously how get strong. And with strengh will come the size you want. Eat more than you ever have and incorporate the 4 best moves for strengh and mass. Bench press, squat, deadlift, and military press. These excersizes incorparate the most muscle fibers. And as much as cardio is incredibly important in the forces, for a 6,3 160 pound you have to cut out cardio COMPLETELY or I promise you you will not gain. I was in the same situation and I gained nearly 30 pounds. Cardio after you get your desired size

1. You can certainly make appreciable gains in strength in two months.
2. 8-12 reps? No. Maybe for assistance work. Regarding the muscle growth and protein synthesis, can you back up your claims with some evidence?
3. The whole "pyramid" thing is garbage. Also, if it's your max, how are you supposed to do 2-3 sets of 1-2 reps? You can't expect to work up to and train at your max every day. That's ridiculous.
4. You don't have to completely stop cardio if you want to get bigger, you just have to eat more.

 

[Ascendant]

4 compound excercises!! You can't leave the bench press off that list of compound excercises.  Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift.  It shouldn't be trained every day, let alone every week.  If you really want to find a great strength training program that still allows you to pile on exhuberrent amounts of conditioninig through running distance and sprinting everyone should google "Wendler 5-3-1".

Although the bench is a great upper body strength builder, you can definitely get by perfectly fine without doing it.

For every day life and strenuous tasks, I'd say the strict press and something like jerks or BTN push press are much more applicable.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Gentlemen, keep the discussion at a reasonable level of tone. There are many methods and each person finds the ones they prefer. If you continue this debate, debate facts not opinions, and back it up with references and not just more emphasis, otherwise it's just a bunch of "she says - she says".

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Fusaki]

A little while back I got a PM from a member here asking what I thought about fitness training prior to BMQ.  While the ideas in my response have already been covered in bits and pieces throughout this thread, I'll re-post the PM here for the sake of bringing it all together and sharing my own broad philosophy on military fitness.

Comments are welcome.

As far as fitness goes, that's the subject of considerable debate.  When I left my Reg Force unit we were doing Crossfit with added ruck marches almost exclusively.  This was a VERY modern approach to fitness and hadn't quite caught on yet with other unit's organized PT.  Crossfit, for the most part, is done by guys who work out on their own time.

Most infantry units tend to stick to more traditional PT.  Usually this is a mix of long runs, long ruck marches, and circuit training.  I think, in time, this method will fall by the wayside and Crossfit-type training will become the focus.

If you skim my posting history over the past few months you'll see that I'm pretty outspoken on the issue of PT, and there are some who disagree with me.  I think the best you can do is educate yourself on a range of opinions and see for yourself what makes the most sense.  Personally, if I were to join the army again knowing what I know now, I would probably prepare like this:

I would do Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength Program until I was at the level of a "Novice" in strength training.
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

This is a pure strength program, not bodybuilding.  It focuses exclusively on a few major compound lifts.  No running, no rucking, or anything else.  I believe that if someone were to take the time to develop a strong strength base before moving to other areas of fitness (work capacity, endurance, ect) they would make faster and safer long term gains.  Nothing beats pure strength training for developing ligament strength and bone density, and the compound lifts strengthen muscles in proper proportion to each other.  You will get bigger on this program, but not in the same way that a bodybuilder would.  The emphasise is on developing strength first and foremost, which requires different training than what you would do when going for size.

Once you've stopped making linear gains on Rippetoe's program, I'd switch to Crossfit.
www.crossfit.com

This is where you become a well-rounded athlete.  Crossfit specializes in not-specializing, which is why it's becoming so popular.  This is where you start developing stamina by going for runs, increasing muscle endurance with lots of pushups and pullups, increasing strength and power through the Olympic lifts, and developing work capacity through exertion against the clock.  Crossfit is, in my opinion, a VERY good system.  I'll emphasize though, that you'll do better at Crossfit if you take the time to do Rip's program first.

Once you've got a grip on Crossfit, I'd start alternating days of crossfit.com + crossfitendurance.com and crossfitfootball.com. Crossfit Football is essentially crossfit offshoot that emphasizes short fast sprints and heavy strength training.  Crossfit Endurance is a supplement to the Crossfit main site and focuses on training for stamina.  These two programs, used together, would provide a VERY well rounded military athlete.  When it's winter and too cold to run outside, I'd probably leave the Crossfit for a bit and go back to a novice strength training program.  In my mind, strength training really is that important.  And I hate the cold.

I would not worry about rucking until you're actually in the army.  When you are, once a week is probably good enough.  Most guys have never lifted a rucksack prior to basic training and we all get through it.  While it's important once you're in (especially in infantry units), you're better off using your time beforehand getting in good all around physical condition.  Rucking is about conditioning the body and the mind more than anything else.  Having a high level of general fitness goes a long way in making it easier.

If I posted the above on the open forum I'm sure some would agree with it, while others would critique the hell out of it.  Each person is different and you can't really define the "right" way.  What I've written is just a reflection of my own experience doing the army guy job for a little while, and the result of long arguments with guys who also think they have the "best" way.

It's not gospel, but I think it will give you a good place to get started in your own research.

Good luck

-WB

 

[Ascendant]

Pretty close to gospel.

Personally, I'm not a fan of CrossFit, but it definitely has it's applications.

 

[Dou You]

Strength training programs, like Mark Rippetoe's are essential in beginner gains in strength. And I believe to be successful with CrossFit, you definitely need a solid base of strength. Personally, I wouldn't do it until you've also gained enough knowledge in training/exercise as well, as really knowing the science of what training is could be the difference of just making gains and efficiently making gains. And efficiency is key in the military, and in life for that matter. But I have known many amazing athletes that have come out of the CrossFit program, so it is definitely useful...it just has to be used at the right time.

 

[ltmaverick25]

Ive been taking a close look at crossfit for a while.  Those guys are definitly in much better shape then I am so ive wondered, do I need to get in shape for crossfit, or just jump in.  I asked that question to the crossfit people, they say just jump in but im wondering if thats more to up subscriptions then meaningful advice.  Any thoughts how to determine when one is ready to start up crossfit?

 

[Ascendant]

Ive been taking a close look at crossfit for a while.  Those guys are definitly in much better shape then I am so ive wondered, do I need to get in shape for crossfit, or just jump in.  I asked that question to the crossfit people, they say just jump in but im wondering if thats more to up subscriptions then meaningful advice.  Any thoughts how to determine when one is ready to start up crossfit?

You can certainly start right now. Every one "starts" lifting weights at some point.

You just do what you can and build on it. As with any sort of weight lifting, it's about progress and constantly challenging yourself, no matter what level you're at. You have to be consistent, as well. Without consistency, you don't really have anything, to be honest.

 

[Fusaki]

Just jump in.

There is no need to subscribe to anything.  You could join a Crossfit Gym if you wanted, but they're expensive and if you're in the army you probably have access to all the gear you need for free.

Just keep two things in mind:

1) Learn the exercises.  crossfit.com has a video library of how to do all the exercises.

2) Scale the work outs to your ability.  Take Wednesday's workout from crossfit.com as an example:

Complete as many rounds in 12 minutes as you can of:
185 pound Front squat, 5 reps
10 Chest to bar Pull-ups
20 Double-unders

If you don't think that you can keep that up at even a slow pace for 12 minutes, then drop the weight.  There's nothing that says you can't do 135lb Front Squats x5 and only 5 Pull-ups per round. Just scale the workouts to something you can do without hurting yourself, and you'll be fine.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I hit the weight room 3 x per week and do a run 2 x per week, but, im almost certain that the intensity level isnt the same as I would get out of the group atmosphere.  I think I will try the jump in approach at one of the crossfit places and hope nothing breaks!

 

[Runnalls]

Take a look at the Stronglifts 5x5 program or Starting Strength.

Google 'Wendler 5/3/1'

Wendler is the god of powerlifting and strength training.

 

[Runnalls]

2) Scale the work outs to your ability.  Take Wednesday's workout from crossfit.com as an example:

Complete as many rounds in 12 minutes as you can of:
185 pound Front squat, 5 reps
10 Chest to bar Pull-ups
20 Double-unders

If you don't think that you can keep that up at even a slow pace for 12 minutes, then drop the weight.  There's nothing that says you can't do 135lb Front Squats x5 and only 5 Pull-ups per round. Just scale the workouts to something you can do without hurting yourself, and you'll be fine.

This is totally true.  That workout is one of the best ways to improve on your V02 usage as well.  It's a guaranteed way to get you sucking some pretty serious wind after 12 minutes.  Especially if you did it AFTER your strength training, whoa, watch out fat cells!

 

[Ascendant]

Google 'Wendler 5/3/1'

Wendler is the god of powerlifting and strength training.

I'm well aware of Jim Wendler and the 5/3/1 program. I definitely would call him the "God" of powerlifting and strength training. His program is popular and applicable for beginner/intermediate lifters, but to be honest, I don't know of any really strong guys who use it. There are also aspects of the program some disagree with.

There are plenty of programs and methodologies out there. Which one you choose to use will be decided on your goals, priorities and personal experience concerning your body and training.

Starting Strength, Sheiko, Hepburn, Smolov, Coan Phillipi, etc...