Should the toast to the Queen be omitted from Mess Dinner's

[vonGarvin]

But I swore my loyalty to my country, not the representative of a somebody else's country.  The age of colonialism is over.   

Same here.  Canada, being a constitutional monarchy, has a sovereign as head of state.  Our incumbent sovereign is Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada.  If you don't recognise Her Majesty, just look at the reverse of any Canadian coin.  You'll see her in profile.  Check it out someday.  Sure, we have a shared Monarchy with Australia, but that doesn't mean that we are trying to colonise Australia, or that Australia is trying to colonise us....

Also check out this site, aptly titled "The Canadian Monarchy" http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/fr-rf/index_e.cfm

 

[Greymatters]

20 pages of discussion on this topic here:  Retain the Monarchy in Canada?

Looking over what was previously posted, I'd go along with Infanteer's argument, he pretty much sums up my opinion. 

 

[mover1]

well lets lock this puppy up and put it to bed....

 

[mysteriousmind]

We should keep the toast...and this, as long as we will swear an oath to the Queen, as long as we will be a member of the Commonwealth, as long as our history has been forge with our English heritage.

Even if I'm a french Quebecois, I think that is it part of what we are and were we are going.

It is like if we would ask our fellow Americans to stop to use the eagle (perhaps a bad example) but I think that it is important. If i push the button further, allot of every day things we use refer us to the English monarchy.

Stop a toast during a mess diner? common...that is not that long or that painfull. 

 

[geo]

A mess dinner is an opportunity for past, present & future comrades in arms to gather, reminisce, eat drink and be merry, before going back to the task at hand of - to close with & destroy the enemy!... wether real or figurative.

The toast to the Queen, the toast to the Regiment, the toast to our officers (the CME even have a place in our prayer for our officers), the toast to our fallen comrades -  they are all part of who we were, who we are and who we aspire to become.

The decision on the status of the Queen of Canada is a political decision and it is not up to the Canadian forces, her loyal Canadian forces, to decide.  We serve!


Gentlemen, please rise and join me in a toast to the Queen.
The Queen!, God bless her!
:cheers:

 

[PrairieBoy]

Gentlemen, I know this topic is old, but it caught my eye. I am an ardent monarchist. At the mess dinners of my Air Cadet Squadron, nothing pleases me more than to toast Her Majesty. Now, some will ask why I am a monarchist. "Mouldy old colonial relic" they will say. I could explain my reasons for being a monarchist, but luckily, I don't have to. This fine fellow has already done it for me:

http://themonarchist.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-monarchy-why-tradition.html

I would cordially suggest that you republicans (as in those that believe in republics as a political system, not members of the American political party) read that article, it lays out monarchist beliefs quite eloquently.

 

[stealthylizard]

I, _________, do swear (solemnly declare) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her heirs and successors according to law. SO HELP ME GOD (delete if declaration)

Nothing about Canada or country in that oath.

 

[Crown-Loyal]

As you can tell by my name I'm a very anti-monarchy 

I don't see why we would change everything so we could have some elected official as our head of state. Prime Ministers divide the country because of political beliefs, the Crown is a rally point for all of Canada as it not political and can represent everyone no matter their belief.

As for the oath. I think maybe you could add something in there about duty to Canada etc, but the Queen is the symbol of our country so, by pledging your allegiance to the Queen, it has to be assumed you are also pledging your allegiance to Canada.

If you think that oath is bad, get a job with CBSA. I think I pledged to be faithful to not divulge information I obtained through working for the  public service.... or something lame like that. Also, someone decided to take the crowns off of all our insignia, and the crown has been a symbol of Custom's authority forever. There are no longer crowns on our dress uniform buttons or cap badge, no crowns on our badges, no crowns on our emblem (originally a portcullis with a crown over top), no crowns on our shoulder flashes.... but obviously none of this bothers me  :-[

 

[1feral1]

Just want to see where our loyalties are.....I personally think that we shouldn't.

:mg:

Just remember your oath...

Until that changes, I don't think the Queen will be removed from toasts.  Meanwhile in Australia, who in many ways have a bad taste for the for the Poms, the toast is still given at Mess dinners.

OWDU

EDITs to add, I did not notice the 6 yr old date - stupid me.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

, the Crown is a rally point for all of Canada

I'd 'rally' a lot more for a picture of Terry Fox than I would the Crown......

 

[Michael OLeary]

I think the undiscussed part of this question is that if the Monarchy was dispensed with from a Canadian perspective, who would the detractors like us to toast as our head of state.  We've all seen how well loved our Prime Ministers can be.  I suspect that many of the same people who readily suggest abolishing Canadian links to the Monarchy haven't thought through the possible alternatives.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think the undiscussed part of this question is that if the Monarchy was dispensed with from a Canadian perspective, who would the detractors like us to toast as our head of state.  We've all seen how well loved our Prime Ministers can be.  I suspect that many of the same people who readily suggest abolishing Canadian links to the Monarchy haven't thought through the possible alternatives.

It would likely devolve to something akin to how we toast for the US. Close to the border or when US guests are involved we toast 'To the Office of the President of the United States' not POTUS himself, for exactly that reason.

 

[Rifleman62]

I believe the correct toast is:" The President of the United States ".

 

[helpup]

I gave an oath as a young pup, to the queen.  Sure you could argue that I was too young to really understand.  However it was an oath and I will abide by it since the understanding at the time was my service to Canada and it's head of state were mutually inclusive ( at the time even more so then now).  As a younger man just entering legal drinking age I also spent many a elbow curl saving the queen ( and fully enjoyed that as well).  Personally I would keep the toast.  If a referendum or political spin changes things in this country WRT to whom the head of state is, I will have to re-evaluate my oath.  Regardless I will always look fondly on it.

 

[TimBit]

In the privileged space of this forum, I'll say that I am no monarchist, even though my wife is a Brit and she likes the Queen. I don't feel the oath I took, which I intend to respect, ought to make me a monarchist. That being said, I have always argued with ardent republicans (of which my native Quebec is chock-full) that in our parliamentary system, which I would not replace for anything in the world, the Queen would need to be replaced by an appointed President, much like the GG, since an elected president would challenge the legitimacy of the Cabinet which is core to our system. And guess what... that appointed president would still live at Rideau Hall, be surrounded with pageantry, bla bla bla. So really it's four quarters for a dollar.

On the other hand, I am wary of the increasingly bold role currently taken by the GG... but I guess that is an opinion the details of which are best kept to myself 

In the meantime, I'm happy to stand (or stay seated at the moment) for the toast to the Queen, as tradition demands.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It would likely devolve to something akin to how we toast for the US. Close to the border or when US guests are involved we toast 'To the Office of the President of the United States' not POTUS himself, for exactly that reason.

The copy of Mess Administration that I have reads as follows:

Other Toasts - When officers or other distinguished persons, officially representing a foreign state, are entertained at a mess dinner, the following procedure shall be carried out:

a.  The Loyal Toasts shall be proposed first.

b.  When only one foreign guest is present, the host should then propose a toast to the head of state of the country to which the guest belongs, e.g., "Gentlemen, the President ...."  <spin>

c.  When a number of nations are represented, the host should propose a collective toast, e.g., "Gentlemen, the heads of states here represented"

Even if we dance around the issue and toast "the PM's office", what do we do in another country when our hosts toast our "head of state."

 

[The Bread Guy]

1)  Like the Loyal Toast, so don't see a need to change it (unless kicked out of/pull out of the Commonwealth - pretty remote chance).

2)  If Canada ever became a Republic (don't think it'll happen in my lifetime), how about this as an alternative?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, to Canada".

 

[Fishbone Jones]

,,,,and yes, I should have been clearer in my original post. However.

The key word in my response was 'devolve'. I never said it was right, simply that that is one way I've heard it done. Also, signifigantly, it was from the Americans in the room, because they didn't like the President, but respect the office. I will also add, I've heard it more than once and in different settings. As far as the toasts to POTUS, I likely hear it more than most given my location.

I'm not getting into a pissing match. I know my protocols. Simply providing some input, so spare the lectures please.

It's also not the topic of this thread.

 

[Journeyman]

I'd 'rally' a lot more for a picture of Terry Fox than I would the Crown......

Was that a typo for Samantha Fox??  Just checkin'  >

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And while we speak of correct wording, how many add "God Bless Her" as the end of the toast?

Was that a typo for Samantha Fox??  Just checkin'  >

Or how about Samatha Fox and a bottle of Crown? For the toast of course