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Should I even bother?

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lexmark

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Hello. I probably already know the answer to my question but I thought I would ask it anyway.

I'm a U.S. citizen living here in Canada. I don't have my citizenship yet but I plan to go for it maybe this year or the next. I also served in the US Navy, however, I was given an "Other Than Honorable" discharge.

With that type of discharge, should I even bother pursuing enlistment in the forces or would  that be a deal-breaker from the word "go"?

Thanks in advance.
 
I'm thinking the "Other than honorable discharge" thing would be a deal-breaker, but since you're not even a citizen, it's a moot point.
 
I thought so but I also wouldn't even attempt until I had citizenship, which I plan to get.
 
You no longer need to be a citizen to join the CF. Permanent resident will do to get you started. I'd head on down to a CFRC and ask them flat out. Bring your documentation and let the system decide.
 
lexmark said:
I was given an "Other Than Honorable" discharge.

Enlisted Administrative Separations
Under Other Than Honorable Conditions.

OTH Discharges are warranted when the reason for separation is based upon a pattern of behavior that constitutes a significant departure from the conduct expected of members of the Military Services.

Examples include:desertion; conscientious objector who refuses to perform military duties; willful or persistent misconduct; offenses involving moral turpitude.



Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure why you'd come to a Canadian, military-related site, seek encouragement to join our military, when you've apparently failed to meet the expected behaviour standards of your own.

 
HollywoodHitman said:
You no longer need to be a citizen to join the CF. Permanent resident will do to get you started. I'd head on down to a CFRC and ask them flat out. Bring your documentation and let the system decide.


???


I have absolutely no idea where you got this information, but it sure wasn't from any CF source.
 
George, it is indeed from a CF related source. It was emailed to me on the DIN via recruiting contacts. I'll look for the email but this is directly from the recruiting site  "Citizens of another country  who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country."

This is new stuff.

Cheers,

HH
 
That's not new.  Read the exceptional circumstances portion.  This mainly would apply to things like Doctors etc.  Skills that are hard to fill.
 
It's been released to the PRes to actively recruit permanent residents. My recruiters are submitting applications for permanent residents based on the email sent to us. Waiting on someone to re-send me the email and I will post the guts - Beachbum, the exceptional circumstances are not new, you're right.
 
I agree.  That is not new, and there are caveats.  The individual has to submit memorandum and documents to the Comd of CFRG and go through a detailed process.

This document was put out on 16  September 2004
RECRUITING DIRECTIVE 01/04 –
PROCESSING OF NON-CANADIAN APPLICANTS

References:  A.  QR&O 6.01
B.  CDS Delegation Order dated 29 May 2002
C.  CFAO 6-1
D.  National Defence Security Policy (NDSP)

It states:

Reference A states that in order to be eligible for enrolment in the Canadian Forces an applicant must be a Canadian citizen.  In rare circumstances only, a waiver may be granted to citizens of other countries who hold permanent resident status in Canada.  This waiver can only be granted if the Canadian Forces has a need for a unique set of skills held by the potential applicant, a Canadian citizen cannot fill the position for which the waiver is sought and the national interest would not be prejudiced.  Being the citizen of a member nation of the British Commonwealth does not alter this requirement nor does being considered as qualified in the occupation being sought.  This means that in order to be considered at all for processing, the applicant must be skilled or semi-skilled for a specific MOC and hold permanent resident status in Canada.  Those that may qualify must apply to Canadian Forces Recruiting Group Headquarters (CFRG HQ) for a waiver of citizenship requirement for enrolment (delegated to Comd CFRG by CDS at Ref B).  All other applicants should be advised of these criteria and encouraged to reapply once they have met the minimum standards.

The minimum standards would be attaining Canadian citizenship, the age and education requirements.

PROCEDURES

The steps outlined in the following paragraphs have been developed to make the process for non-Canadian applicants as simple as possible.  The majority of the decision-making process will rest with CFRG HQ and, to some extent, with the particular Branch Advisor (BA) or Managing Authority (MA).  These steps, if followed in the order given, will also help to ensure that an applicant will be processed as expeditiously as possible while still respecting the policies and procedures for hiring non-Canadians laid out by both the CF and the Government of Canada.  That said, this process will take anywhere from one to two years to complete for the majority of applicants.

Step 1:  The Permanent Resident applicant shall submit a curriculum vitae (CV) or résumé, as well as any supporting documentation to Canadian Forces Recruiting Group Headquarters (CFRG HQ), to include at least the following information:

a. A description of the desired occupation;
b. Full name;
c. Date and place of Birth;
d. A complete list of countries of residence (include dates)
e. Present addresses of all immediate family members (parents, siblings, spouse and parents-in-law);
f. Reasons for relocation to Canada;
g. Date of arrival in Canada and when Permanent Resident Status was granted;
h. Education, to include all institutions attended, Grade / Level completed, Diplomas / Degrees awarded, marks achieved / Grade Point Average, and apprenticeship / journeyman qualifications;
i. Employment history;
j. A description of activities (volunteer positions, community organizations, etc…)

CFRG HQ will determine if the occupation desired by the applicant is considered to be a distressed occupation.  It is important to note that distressed from the perspective of non-Canadian applicants shall be determined by CFRG HQ and will be based upon the inability to attract a sufficient number of Canadian applicants to fill the Strategic Intake Plan (SIP) for that particular occupation.  The fact that the particular Branch in question is critically below Preferred Manning Level will not in and of itself translate into the issuance of a Waiver of the Citizenship Requirements for Enrolment being granted.  The applicant will proceed to the next step in the process with the approval of the BA or MA, which will only be sought if the SIP target permits. Otherwise, the applicant will receive a rejection letter similar to that at Annex A.

Step 2:  An electronic copy of the CV together with all supporting documents shall be forwarded under cover (Annex B) for review by the sponsoring Branch Advisor (BA) or Managing Authority (MA) for that particular occupation.  If the sponsor wishes to pursue the enrolment of the applicant, a Prior Learning Assessment (PLA) will be conducted in order to determine whether the applicant will in fact be considered as fully qualified in the occupation.  Once this has been completed the sponsor will notify CFRG HQ//SSO Selection in writing that the applicant is considered suitable.  The letter or e-mail  should include the following salient points:

a. The qualifications granted to the applicant as a result of the PLA;

b. The special skills that the applicant will bring to both the CF and the occupation;

c. The recommended rank of the applicant if enrolled.  It should be kept in mind that CFRG HQ is only authorized to enrol an applicant up to and including the ranks of Captain and Corporal.  Any higher rank is considered a “controlled” rank and requires written approval from DGMC.

Additionally, since one of the requirements of the Waiver of the Citizenship Requirements for Enrolment is that the applicant must actively pursue citizenship, the sponsor must provide assurances to the Commander CFRG that the Branch will ensure that the applicant applies to become a citizen within the required three years (similar to sponsorship).  If the sponsor recommends acceptance, the Commander CFRG will issue a waiver of the Citizenship Requirements for Enrolment to the applicant.  If the sponsor does not wish to pursue the applicant or if the applicant is not considered as qualified in the occupation, the applicant will get a standard rejection letter similar to that at Annex A.

Step 3:  upon confirmation that the applicant is suitable and needed, CFRG HQ will issue a Waiver of the Citizenship Requirements for Enrolment.  This waiver shall only permit the applicant to commence the recruiting processing.  A copy of the standard waiver letter (Annex C) shall be sent to the appropriate sponsor, the processing CFRC, and Human Resources Development Canada (HRDC).

Step 4:  The applicant will complete form TBS 330 -23E/F at the processing CFRC to have an Enhanced Reliability Check (ERC) conducted.  This shall be a five-year background check as laid out at reference D. 

Step 5:  Authority for the granting of Enhanced Reliability Status (ERS) for non-Canadian applicants rests with the Commander CFRG.  Therefore, once the processing CFRC has completed the ERC, all of the documentation shall be forwarded to CFRG HQ in order to permit the Commander to make a decision with regard to granting Enhanced Reliability Status (ERS).

Step 6:  Once the Enhanced Reliability Status (ERS) is granted, the applicant will have to undergo a (pre-enrolment) Security Clearance Pre-Assessment IAW articles’ 36.39 to 36.43 of reference D.  This process encompasses two components: a 10-year background check conducted by CSIS, who then recommends a Waiver of the Citizenship Requirements for a Security Clearance, which is issued by the CDS.  This Pre-Assessment will normally take anywhere from six months to in excess of one year to complete.  The following is a synopsis of the process:

a. The applicant completes the appropriate Pre-security documentation at the processing CFRC;

b. The completed form is submitted to DPM Sec-2 together with ERS and a copy of the Waiver of the Citizenship Requirements for Enrolment;

c. CSIS will conduct a 10-year background check;

d. DPM Sec-2 will request that the CDS approve a waiver of the citizenship requirements for a security clearance; and,

e. If no concerns have been raised as a result of the background check, DPM Sec-2 will issue a No Security Objection (NSO) meeting the requirements of the Security Clearance Pre-Assessment.

It should be noted that the ERC and the Pre-Assessment are not to be submitted at the same time.  Chapter 36 of reference D states that ERS is a pre-condition of the Pre-Assessment and DPM Sec-2 has been clear that they will reject any request for a Security Clearance Pre-Assessment for an applicant who has not been granted ERS by the Comd CFRG.

Step 7:  Once a NSO has been received as a result of a Security Clearance Pre-Assessment, the applicant would undergo all remaining processing up to the point of enrolment.  The applicant must meet the minimum common enrolment standards for enrolment into the CF. If the applicant fails to meet any of these standards (medical, physical, education requirements, CFAT, etc…), the applicant shall be screened out as per normal procedures.

Step 8:  Once the applicant has successfully completed the recruiting process, CFRG HQ should be notified in order to have a Conditional Offer of Enrolment (COE) issued by the appropriate cell.  The COE shall reiterate the requirement for the applicant to become a Canadian citizen within three years of enrolment.  An extension of this time limit will only be considered if the inability to secure citizenship was clearly beyond the applicant’s control.  Otherwise the applicant will be released from the Canadian Forces under the most appropriate release item.

CONCLUSION

In the end the steps outlined above are intended to formalize the process that is to be followed for skilled non-Canadian applicants who express a desire to enrol in the CF, both in the Regular and Reserve components.  It is important that all stakeholders and CFRG personnel remember that non-Canadian applicants are not an additional applicant pool that is available to provide quickly trained personnel to fill vacancies.  It is to be used only as a last resort to provide skilled personnel, if and only if, there are an insufficient number of suitable Canadian applicants (skilled or unskilled) available to fill the intake requirements for a particular occupation.
 
George,

I'm not disagreeing with you. That was the latest and greatest -  and I know that I need to back up my statement with supporting docs and refs. I'm waiting to get it re-sent to me so I can post it here. It's a very recent change - only weeks old.

MTF.

Cheers,

HH
 
HH is correct.  I try not to micro manage my recruiter, but she did show me a recently released message indicating that Permanent Residents are now able to apply without having to be included under the previous caveat.  I only gave it a cursory read, but I will dig it up and post it tomorrow unless someone else does it first. Needless to say, the last job fair my recruiter attended a couple of days ago netted a 10 fold increase in the number of applications to the Naval Reserve.
 
Allow me to clarify this issue.
Canadian Permanent Resident is considered on equal footing as Canadian Citizenship for enrollment purposes.  This was changed very recently.
 
Journeyman said:
Examples include:desertion; conscientious objector who refuses to perform military duties; willful or persistent misconduct; offenses involving moral turpitude.

I was curious about the term "moral turpitude", which apparently has a very specific meaning in the United States.  Definitions vary, but the most well-defined explanation is found on the Department of State website, dealing with Immigration law.  "Moral turpitude" includes such heinous acts as rape, murder and manslaughter - but also includes acts such as sodomy and adultery.  They're not even offences in Canada, and some might argue that a career in the CF is kind of like getting bent over by someone who is not your husband or wife.  ;)

 
"Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure why you'd come to a Canadian, military-related site, seek encouragement to join our military, when you've apparently failed to meet the expected behaviour standards of your own."

At the risk of being slammed, which doesn't really bother me, I went U/A(AWOL) for just long enough to be guaranteed a discharge. That's the only reason. I never had any other problems in the military. Never disciplined and even had a good conduct medal. I liked being in the navy. I liked serving on a destroyer and going to sea. However, I knew that I was unable to do my job and I did what I felt I had to do. I had 2 years left on my contract and no way to switch jobs. Wrong or right, it's what I did.

I was a fire controlman and early on in my schooling, I realized I just plain didn't have the aptitude to track down faults and repair electrical equipment. I am just not one of those people. I tried to get out of it and switch jobs at my first school, to no success, and somehow managed to make it through all 3 schools and go to a ship. Which, as many of you probably know, isn't that difficult when the military has invested ten's of thousand's of dollars on your training. They aren't about to let a little thing like having no clue how to do the troubleshooting and repairing of your equipment stop you. So long as you get through the training. But I tried and did my best and when I got to the ship where the faults and breakdowns aren't put into the system by an instructor, I knew that i was screwed.

I left because I didn't want my shipmates depending on me to fix a critical piece of equipment and not having a clue how to go about it. Having said all that, if I felt that I was able to completely perform all my duties, I would still be in the navy.
 
lexmark said:
, I went U/A(AWOL)

Oh i see. By all means, come join my military.

I left because I didn't want my shipmates depending on me to fix a critical piece of equipment and not having a clue how to go about it.

Did you ever think that knowing your job comes with hands-on experience. You dont get that experience by going AWOL.


Yes, we will welcome you with open arms of course.
 
I went U/A(AWOL) for just long enough to be guaranteed a discharge.

Certainly behavior that demonstrates qualities any military would desperately want!

 
Whether or not he's made of the kind of material we want, he still asked if he should bother.

Without speaking for the masses here, it would seem that in the opinion of some of the professionals on this site, only some of whom have waded in, I think generally we'd prefer it if you didn't. If you don't have the stomach to fight your way through some adversity and follow the proper channels to pursue an honourable release, there exists a possibility that you'll just create more administrative work which may not correspond directly to the skills you bring to the table. You signed a contract, you didn't like what the terms were and rather than fulfill it or do it properly, you knowingly did whatever you could to get out of it.

However, it's your right to apply; but be prepared not to be accepted based on a poor decision you made in your past.

I'd wish you luck, but I'm hoping we might not get to fight side by each anytime soon.

HH.
 
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