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Sell The Vatican, Feed The World

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c_canuk said:
Dataperson

Tax exemption doesn’t mean you have to pay for the tax exempt groups, it means that those who are tax exempt don’t have to pay the government anything just to exist. If the church doesn’t consume any government resources, what right does the Government have to tax them?

Bingo fundraisers aren’t to fund keggers, it’s usually to provide building upkeep which keeps your property value up. If it’s not for building up keep it’s a charitable works project.

The reason churches get charity tax exemption is because they are charities, just because you don't want to be a part of a particular charity doesn't mean it shouldn't be given tax exempt status.

I go to a church (very infrequently) that even though it needs almost a million in capital repairs (old stone building from the 1800s or earlier) is still providing a safe haven and hot lunch program for a school in the worst part of Saint John.

This school is where some misfit children get their last chance before the system gives up on them. Some of these children are too much burden for other schools, either behaviourally or because they have disabilities that make them difficult to accommodate. 
Providing a safe place free from persecution and a free hot meal (the only one some of these kids get each day), is reasonable cause to grant tax exemption.

The minute churches loose tax exemption status is the minute they all close, the property tax alone on the churches which are a part of our country's heritage would be too much for people to maintain as well as provide funds for charitable works abroad.

You’d have church members meeting in basements while the structures(that were put up board by board and paid for by previous generations of members of that church) sitting empty, demolished or sold off as commercial space. I feel that is pretty unfair and grounds to claim persecution.

Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".  By exempting one group you raise the cost to other groups.  I do not support charitable deductions for religious institutions - if they are worthwhile their adherents will fund them anyways; if not, well, why should the state subsidize it?

But you assume a church has greater rights than any others.  Anyone else unable to pay their taxes sells and moves.  Why should any one business, person or organization claim a greater set of rights?  If a church can't afford their buildings, well, sell it and move somewhere cheaper.

If you choose to belong to such a group, more power to you.  I respect that choice.  But do not expect me to subsidize it, directly or indirectly.


EDIT: TO remove gratuitous personal attack.
 
Re Hollywood -

Agreeing with TV and Teflon - the greatest boon that Obama could grant the US to enhance democracy would be to deny Hollywood's right to free speech.    They damnear qualify as state religion.
 
Oh, wow, I missed all the vitriol that seems to have been throw into this thread in the past few days.

Personally, I'm with dataperson on this one. I do not believe that religious organizations should be exempt from taxation.

To those who would throw up the example of various churches doing various amounts of charitable work, that's fine, and I applaud them for it. I do believe that a church's charitable work should be exempt from taxation. For those religious organizations that do a lot of charity work, this would result is a rather small tax bill. For those religious organizations that do little to no charity work, this would result in them paying their fair share.

Charities are exempt from taxation because the majority of charitable work is something that the government has deemed to be good for society. Thus, it is something to be encouraged.

I, personally, do not believe that religion is something that the government should be encouraging in such a manner. I'm not suggesting we should outlaw religion or anything as radical as that. I just suggest that they should be expected to pay the same taxes as any other social organization.
 
hmm, "Treat all religious organizations as taxpaying".... then they would become... corporations.  And as a rational churchgoing member my 'contributions' would then become a 'business expense' allowing me a tax deduction.  Ok, works for me.  A receipt for services rendered.

It's ironic that organizations like the Salvation Army, which delivers 90% of donations back in services, is being targeted, while the United Way, whose books only look good because administrative costs are covered by the government, is not.  United Way has a great thing going.  Good propaganda and government subsidies to collect money.  What could be better?
 
Unlike organized religions, the United Way doesn't have a track record of sexual scandals, a history of dubious political behaviours, or fill kids heads with tales of burning pits of sulphur for all eternity for failing to adhere to that particular clergy's mythology.


This is the closest I get to that god-stuff  ;)
 
Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".

Opportunity cost or economic opportunity loss is the value of the next best alternative foregone as the result of making a decision.[1] Opportunity cost analysis is an important part of a company's decision-making processes but is not treated as an actual cost in any financial statement.[2] The next best thing that a person can engage in is referred to as the opportunity cost of doing the best thing and ignoring the next best thing to be done.

therefore this is not a valid argument,

taxes are supposed to pay for services consumed by the tax payer, define any services that a church would use that is not already paid for individually by the members or still paid for by the church (ie churches are not exempt from municipality facility charges)

if any organization that guides people is considered a charity (big brothers, big sisters, scouts, girl guides, youth sports teams, and so on) are considered charities because they provide moral guidance and activities to better the community what basis do you claim churches don't qualify other than the fact that you don't like religion?

By exempting one group you raise the cost to other groups.

only if the exempt group consumes resources, if they don't then what you have are other groups subsidizing their services on the back of a victim.

I do not support charitable deductions for religious institutions - if they are worthwhile their adherents will fund them anyways; if not, well, why should the state subsidize it?

by that logic what reason would you give any charity tax exempt status?

But you assume a church has greater rights than any others.  Anyone else unable to pay their taxes sells and moves.  Why should any one business, person or organization claim a greater set of rights?  If a church can't afford their buildings, well, sell it and move somewhere cheaper.

no, I assume a church that provides the same services and contributions as most other charitable organizations should be entitled to the same tax exemptions regardless of those who don't agree with their philosophy. I don't agree with the united way, but I wouldn't support removing their tax exemption status just because I disagree with who they support. That is mean spirited and selfish. While the united way does waste a lot of funds and much doesn't go to the intended recipients, they do some good work.


If you choose to belong to such a group, more power to you.  I respect that choice.  But do not expect me to subsidize it, directly or indirectly.

you aren't subsidizing anything, you are just whining that if we didn't give them tax exemption status there would be more taxes and you think that somehow your taxes would go down which shows a fundamental failure in understanding how politicians create budgets, and a failure in realizing that that removing tax exemption status would result in the destruction of a charitable organization that does good work, while providing no new taxes, at the expense of tax payers who created these organizations from the ground up with their own funds for the specific purpose of doing charitable work and guiding their communities.

just because you don't like religion does not mean they are not charities.
 
Otto Fest said:
hmm, "Treat all religious organizations as taxpaying".... then they would become... corporations.  And as a rational churchgoing member my 'contributions' would then become a 'business expense' allowing me a tax deduction.  Ok, works for me.  A receipt for services rendered.

It's ironic that organizations like the Salvation Army, which delivers 90% of donations back in services, is being targeted, while the United Way, whose books only look good because administrative costs are covered by the government, is not.  United Way has a great thing going.  Good propaganda and government subsidies to collect money.  What could be better?

Sorry, but business expenses don't really work that way. In order to claim a business expense, the expense has to actually be related to your employment. It's possible a pastor might be able to claim his 10% tithe as a related business expense, as it may be a requirement to keep his job. Maybe. But for the average person who goes to the church, there is no such link between what they give to the church and their income. Thus no business expense.

And again, as per my previous post, due to the large amount of charitable work done by the Salvation Army, were this change to be enacted, they would still likely end up paying very little in the way of taxes. I would hardly call that being "targeted".
 
Unlike organized religions, the United Way doesn't have a track record of sexual scandals

Not Sex Scandals no, and branding the the 100s of millions of people with that brush do to the despicable actions of a few who abused their position of power is a little unfair. No organization is without scandal, as you should well know. Granted the current handling of the situation is appalling and must be remedied, however I don't want to see the good works terminated do to bad handling of member’s abuse.

a history of dubious political behaviours
I bed to differ on that one, supporting the coalition for gun control is pretty dubious to me, as well as several other endevours they've funded in the past.

or fill kids heads with tales of burning pits of sulphur for all eternity for failing to adhere to that particular clergy's mythology.

some abuse their powers, yes, but I fail to see the problem with telling a child if there is an afterlife and you kill, steal, lie, cheat, disrespect others, there may be consequences.

how about the coalition for gun control's filling kids heads with tales of guns turning their loving fathers into mindless killers, or MADD telling kids that the mere possession of keys while over .08BAC (.05 in Ontario) will turn their parents into wild homicidal drivers. How about PETA showing videos of animals being tortured to death and claiming that what they are seeing is normal SOP for their local food production, rather than one time events some suspect PETA agents instigated if not orchestrated.

If every time something happened that was socially unacceptable, we terminated the organization, we'd still be living in caves.

Perfect people don't exist, which is why it is amazing that our society progresses in spite of our imperfections.
 
c_canuk said:
....I fail to see the problem with telling a child if there is an afterlife
Do you have a source for that?      No, I didn't think so.

You see, I also understand the utility in telling a child about a tooth fairy, to ease their separation anxiety over losing teeth.

But in the absence of any verifiable evidence, I've managed to outgrow the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause......and three wise men and a virgin showing up together for a Boxing Day Sale at the Bethlehem Walmart.

The critical difference in these myths, is that no one has gone to war claiming someone offended Santa or a Bunny...or in the case of this topic's origin, Santa isn't asking me for money (while massively wealthy in his own right), to support his charitable cause de jour.


So you enjoy your beliefs. But I'd prefer to take your wise counsel:
...if you don't want any part of it BUTT OUT.
 
And to think all this meanfull/meanless discussion was sparked but the wise words of a comedian!
 
While churches may have schools, hospitals, universities, and a variety of social welfare activities their primary charitable function is to worship God and save souls.  Seems like a lot of fertile ground around here.

 
Well, this thread proves it:  the value of the old dictum "No sex, politics or religion in the Mess".

I am willing to accept the odd bit of pornography and OCs' wives on the billiard table.  And politics is the staple of this Mess... but why do we have to beat up on those things that give folks comfort.....

What advantage is there to informing your buddy there is no toothfairy?
 
Teflon said:
And to think all this meanfull/meanless discussion was sparked but the wise words of a comedian!

I can't make any claim to being a Christian or an adherent to any other religion. Having said that, when this thread was first posted my immediate thought was that I hoped someone (someone with a lot more "street cred" than I have around here) would get up on their hind legs and call BS.

From what I've seen, any and every mean-spirited little shot at Christians is wildly applauded, reprinted in every newspaper, gets a zillion hits on youtube and the artist/entertainer/author gets to bask in the warm glow of popular approval.

How about we try this some other religion. Let's say...oh..I don't know...how about Islam ? I can hear it now:
Woah whoa WHOA there Bass! What are you? A hater??
I mean we don't want to offend anyone!


Ummm...Hellooo??
Remember "Piss Christ" (the crucifix in a jar of urine)? The "Chocolate Jesus"? That atrocity of publicly-funded "art" that consisted of a painting of the Virgin Mary covered with vaginas and cow dung?
Gosh... I'm sure glad we aren't trying to offend Christians!
After all, they're all evil and they might riot and torch thousands of cars and kill people and generally be unpleasant and ...oh..wait a minute...

Sorry for the mini-rant. This crap bothers me. From where I sit, it smacks of bullying and cowardice.
And I don't see where that's acceptable regardless of who's on the receiving end of it.
 
I'm a firm believer in George Carling. ;D
If anyone wants to worship something thats cool with me.I keep looking in my beret hoping to find some special gold tablets that only I can read to start my own church...no luck thus far.
 
Bass ackwards, I am really not to keen on worshiping any religion. Name your particular religion, worship it in hopes for a better outcome they're all the same to me.
It would be great to believe in the myth of a/any superior power that could intercede in my favour but unfortunately I am stuck with harsh reality.
But let me add that any religion that preaches humanitarian values has to be a good thing. Time spent in thought on how to be a better human being and improving the human race, wether in a place of worship or any quite setting, seems like the right path.
 
I've had enough. 
As a Roman Catholic, I say to all of you

FUCK OFF AND GET YOUR OWN VATICAN AND SELL IT IF YOU WANT TO!

Yes, there are members of the Catholic Church, officers of that church, even, who have been involved in sex scandals, "dubious" policies, etc.  Corruption up the hoop.  The list goes on.  Now, why paint us ALL with the same brush?  I mean, what's next?  Just because there are a disproportionate number of blacks in prison, does that mean that they ALL are criminals?  All Irish are drunks, Germans are militaristic autobots who head East every generation or so in some lemming-like desire to lose yet another war?  NO!

If you think that I adhere to a myth, that's fine, I could care less.  I have my own reasons for my faith, and it has helped me.  I'm not a simpleton who follows any crazy train into (or out of) town.  I've made my decision, and I re-examine it every day.  It's my choice, and I have my reasons.  Your "holier than thou" attitudes because you are "enlightened" enough to realise that this is it: there is nothing more is really starting to grind my gears.  Please, enlighten me, save me from my mythology. 

Silverman, et al, are all hypocrites.  They make eleventy-billion dollars per annum and then scream and rant and rave that the Church is evil.  "The Pope is a mass murderer" claims Elton John. Why?  Because JP 2 didn't advocate the use of condoms.  What he actually advocated was abstinance outside of marriage, and remaining faithful to your spouse in marriage (which, if followed, has a 100% success rate if both spouses follow said advice).  The irony is this: they weren't listening to His Holiness anyway!  And the Church (remember that evil empire?) does quite a bit to assist victims of AIDS in Africa. According to that link, Catholic charities account for around 25% of all medical AIDS relief in Africa.  How much does Hollywood do?  Just asking.




[/rant]


OK, I feel better.  Now I'm going to go have a coffee so that I can "warm up" to the warning system.







 
" Let he, who is without Sin, cast the first stone"

Just to clarify, ALL Irish are drunks... ;D
 
I should really pay more attention to the shit pit that is Radio Chatter.

Locked and soon to be deleted.
Bruce

Technoviking said:
OK, I feel better.  Now I'm going to go have a coffee so that I can "warm up" to the warning system.


Actually, you were nicer than I would have been and I'm a devout non-believer.
 
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