Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[Aaron97]

Hello I have a question regarding CFR (going from NCM to Officer)

I have begun my application for the Canadian Forces as a Supply Technician reservist. I have just completed the aptitude test and am awaiting the results. I noticed a few questions on the test were likely to be Officer characteristic questions (measuring intellectual, interest on politics, leadership, etc) My concern is my plan is to do Reserves until I obtain my Bachelors in Law & Criminology and am appointed to a Provincial Law Bar (whatever it's called). Afterwards, I would like to CFR to Officer as a Regular member.

Are my chances of being an officer ruined because of this aptitude test?

I also heard that most Officer's who were NCM's are seldomly promoted past Captain or are ever given senior appointments due to them being former NCM's. 

Will my troops like the fact that I was a former ncm and now an officer?

 

[Pusser]

Hello I have a question regarding CFR (going from NCM to Officer)

I have begun my application for the Canadian Forces as a Supply Technician reservist. I have just completed the aptitude test and am awaiting the results. I noticed a few questions on the test were likely to be Officer characteristic questions (measuring intellectual, interest on politics, leadership, etc) My concern is my plan is to do Reserves until I obtain my Bachelors in Law & Criminology and am appointed to a Provincial Law Bar (whatever it's called). Afterwards, I would like to CFR to Officer as a Regular member.

Are my chances of being an officer ruined because of this aptitude test?

I also heard that most Officer's who were NCM's are seldomly promoted past Captain or are ever given senior appointments due to them being former NCM's. 

Will my troops like the fact that I was a former ncm and now an officer?

The CF Apptitude Test is the same for everyone.  As far as I know, the results have an expiry date, so it may depend on how long ago you wrote it as to whether it makes a difference in your application for officer training.  If the results are not up to snuff, you may be allowed to re-write it.  Please note that I am not familiar with how the CFAT is used in commissioning programs for applicants who are already members of the CF.  However, when I "transferred" from Reserve NCM to Regular officer many years ago, I was effectively treated as a new applicant and I wrote the CFAT for my Regular Force application (never actually wrote one for the Reserve).  When my application was rejected the first time, I did not have to write it again a year later.

You're confusing your terminology a little bit.  "Commissioning from the Ranks" (CFR) is a specific program applicable only to sergeants/petty officers 2nd class and above.  It is a merit based program that targets individuals whose training and experience have shown them to be suitable for service as an officer.  Technically speaking, one does not apply for a CFR.  One is selected/approached (although folks who are interested usually make their wishes known and so the chain of command may turn around and pursue it on the member's "request").  CFR is only used for officers who will be employed in similar fields as their former NCM occupations (i.e. an NCM Sup Tech can only CFR to Logistics Officer).

Former service as an NCM has absolutely no bearing on one's upward mobility as an officer.  The fact that I'm not an admiral has NOTHING to do with the fact that I was once a leading seaman.  The reason some CFR officers may not reach lofty heights has more to do with time.  If they commission late in their careers, they simply may not have time to get too high before they retire.

Your subordinates will likely not care in the slightest that you were once an NCM, unless you're a jerk about it.

 

[dimsum]

Your subordinates will likely not care in the slightest that you were once an NCM, unless you're a jerk about it.

Related to this, don't be "that guy" who says "well I'm this NCM trade now, but I'll be that Officer trade later". 

 

[MeunierConsole01]

Hello !

I am in the process of applying for the primary reserves as an artillery soldier. I applied first as an officer but I failed my cfat by 4 points to be qualified, so the recruiting agent gave me the option to apply as an NCM instead. I wanted to re-do the my cfat again but the problem is that I applied 8 years ago in another province for another trade, when I was much, much younger. At that time I didn't qualified for officer too and my eyesight was not good enough to enter the cf. Since then I got a university degree, got my eyes lased up, and am currently doing a master degree. I had difficulties with the spatial reasoning and time management; instead of going to the next question I was staying on the same one for too long. The recruiter told me that if I contact the recruiting center and explain them that I did some extensive practice to get a better result at my cfat, they could give me a 3rd last chance. But for now I'll have to stick to the NCM option. Right now I'm evaluating my options and I'm wondering if the NCM route could be a good option too, considering that I would like to transfer into the reg force after I'll have my master degree. I'm just bummed to be blocked by 4 missing points after having spent a lot of time studying in university... But I dont make the rules. What could be the main benefits or disadvantages of being an NCM vs an Officer and vice versa ? What are the main factors that makes for a quick versus slow career progression as an NCM ? I talked with various persons that were in the army (officers and NCO's) and all telled me to take the officer route. More rewarding, more responsibilities, better pay etc.. One officer even told me that there's a lot of bitchin' between NCM and that I won't be challenged intellectually, for someone who comes from a university route. Kind of disappointing to hear that ! I can't comment on those statements but if someone could give me their opinion on these it would be appreciated !

Thanks for the advices.

 

[mariomike]

I am in the process of applying for the primary reserves

The recruiter told me that if I contact the recruiting center and explain them that I did some extensive practice to get a better result at my cfat, they could give me a 3rd last chance.

I was unsuccessful with my cfat twice.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/107846.0

What could be the main benefits or disadvantages of being an NCM vs an Officer and vice versa ?

You may find these discussions of interest,

Officer/NCM differences 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/171.0
22 pages.

Reserves: Officer or NCM?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/105093.0

Joining the reserve as an officer versus joining as an NCM 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/23749.0

See also,

Officer versus NCM
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca++ncm+officer&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=cVauVrulFYqN8QfbsKTgAw&gws_rd=ssl

What are the main factors that makes for a quick versus slow career progression as an NCM ?

Questions about Artillery NCM duties and career progression 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104289.0

NCM to Officer 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/83194.0

NCM to Officer advancement 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/85134.0

NCM to OFFICER plan 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/88220.0
4 pages.

Upgrading from NCM to Officer 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/116536.0

From NCM to Officer.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/116374.0

Reserve NCM to Officer Transfers 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119673.0

etc...

NCM to Officer
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca++ncm+officer&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=cVauVrulFYqN8QfbsKTgAw&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca++ncm+to+officer+

Is this still what you have in mind?

so maybe somebody with experience could tell me if applying for artillery soldier in a res. unit and immediately asking for a CT into armour officer while going to school at the same time is feasible. Maybe it's too complicated and I should just apply for armour officer straight away but I thought that military experience as an NCM with a master degree in my pocket could get me extra points if I find that the CF is really what I want, full time.

As always, your most trusted source of information is Recruiting.

 

[MeunierConsole01]

Thanks for the links ! Some of the questions asked got unanswered too, and the situation for these people might be different from mine; I got some useful info out them though. As for the post you quoted me on, I took the decision to enroll as an artillery officer after having this first reflexion a couple of months ago. Since there is no reserve armour unit in my area, I chose artillery and I would be interested to transfer into the regular within the same branch of the army.

 

[mariomike]

Thanks for the links !

You are welcome. Good luck. 

 

[runormal]

All information is based off a reserve ACISS as an NCM

Hello !

Right now I'm evaluating my options and I'm wondering if the NCM route could be a good option too, considering that I would like to transfer into the reg force after I'll have my master degree.

Definitely isn't a bad go as an NCM. Depends what you want to do. WRT to your transfer just make sure you are in the right trade. when you swear in. Combining a Component transfer with an Occupational Transfer isn't a route I'd advise. If you stay the same trade it shouldn't be too bad however. Just do what you can to be fully trained before you transfer.

What are the main factors that makes for a quick versus slow career progression as an NCM ?

Big thing is drive / attitude if you show up on time and put a constant effort in you will get out of the reserves what you put into it. With that being said typically everyone gets cpl's at the 2 year mark. PLQ and MCpl/MBdr depends on the unit. Some units it is the best people go, other units it depends who is available. That being said even if you get loaded on PLQ it doesn't mean you'll pass. From my friends that have done it recently they being fairly strict with assessing (which is a good thing). One course you really want to get is your drivers course, that just makes you that much more employable.

I talked with various persons that were in the army (officers and NCO's) and all telled me to take the officer route. More rewarding, more responsibilities, better pay etc.. One officer even told me that there's a lot of bitchin' between NCM and that I won't be challenged intellectually, for someone who comes from a university route. Kind of disappointing to hear that ! I can't comment on those statements but if someone could give me their opinion on these it would be appreciated !

Depends on the trade/position I'm in. It is true that there are times when I'm bored out of my mind but there are also times when my shifts fly by. The same can be said about the duty-Officer that is right beside me. There are also times when I was glad I wasn't the duty officer and likewise there are also times when I would of done things differently.

I've worked with the artillery once, it was a neat experience.

 

[Ayrsayle]

Hello !

I am in the process of applying for the primary reserves as an artillery soldier. I applied first as an officer but I failed my cfat by 4 points to be qualified, so the recruiting agent gave me the option to apply as an NCM instead. I wanted to re-do the my cfat again but the problem is that I applied 8 years ago in another province for another trade, when I was much, much younger. At that time I didn't qualified for officer too and my eyesight was not good enough to enter the cf. Since then I got a university degree, got my eyes lased up, and am currently doing a master degree. I had difficulties with the spatial reasoning and time management; instead of going to the next question I was staying on the same one for too long. The recruiter told me that if I contact the recruiting center and explain them that I did some extensive practice to get a better result at my cfat, they could give me a 3rd last chance. But for now I'll have to stick to the NCM option. Right now I'm evaluating my options and I'm wondering if the NCM route could be a good option too, considering that I would like to transfer into the reg force after I'll have my master degree. I'm just bummed to be blocked by 4 missing points after having spent a lot of time studying in university... But I dont make the rules. What could be the main benefits or disadvantages of being an NCM vs an Officer and vice versa ? What are the main factors that makes for a quick versus slow career progression as an NCM ? I talked with various persons that were in the army (officers and NCO's) and all telled me to take the officer route. More rewarding, more responsibilities, better pay etc.. One officer even told me that there's a lot of bitchin' between NCM and that I won't be challenged intellectually, for someone who comes from a university route. Kind of disappointing to hear that ! I can't comment on those statements but if someone could give me their opinion on these it would be appreciated !

Thanks for the advices.

Disclosure - I'm an Infantry Officer currently working with a Reserve Unit.

NCMs are technical specialists, Officers are Operational specialists (at least in theory).  If you are interested in doing and seeing direct results (and a lot of it) I'd recommend the NCM route.  If you'd rather plan and theorize (assume the responsibilities for that plan), etc - Officer route will provide more of that.  NCMs often become specialists in particular areas and get a depth of technical knowledge an officer is unlikely to rival, while an officer will often become a generalist with a broad awareness of knowledge across the CAF.  Can only speak for my own area (Infantry Officer), but there is a reason why at nearly every level an Officer is paired with an NCO - they have very different skillsets and (ideally) rely on each other to handle whatever the job requires.

But don't mistake the fact that an education somehow makes you better at one or the other - I've worked with University educated officers who I wouldn't be comfortable with them planning much of anything, and some truly impressive tactical minds who never graduated high school.  There are many NCMs with university degrees and still a few Officers who don't have a degree either.  One of my personal frustrations when interviewing potential officer candidates is they feel they "deserve" being an officer because they have university education.  Do what you like to do, not what you feel your background says you should do.

Reg Force Officers will usually end up being moved around more often - largely due to the lack of positions in a single area for their progression and professional development.  NCM's will often, especially at the beginning of their career, end up being able to continue their development in a single area due to the number of positions available and the nature of becoming a technical specialist.

Echoing runormal - The Reserves are a great place to start a military career as long as you put as much into it as you want to get out of it.  You will need to be prepared for the fact that when your transfer goes through, you will (depending on how long you are with the reserves) end up losing your rank on the transfer.  The courses you complete are based of the Reg Force standard and (normally) you'll keep your qualifications you've completed, but after only working a week night and maybe a weekend a month your total time in will not be the same as someone of the same rank in the Reg Force.  The flip side is a motivated and capable Reserve soldier often has opportunities that his Reg Force peer may not have - courses, promotion (and the career courses that go with it), etc.

Keep reading on the site - there are lots of other perspectives on the NCM/NCO-Officer debate.

Good luck!

 

[CombatMacguyver]

... and that I won't be challenged intellectually, for someone who comes from a university route.

That depends entirely on what trade you're going into.  I can tell you first hand there are days as an EO-Tech you WILL leave with a headache (depending on where you're posted).  I'm sure my blueberry-brothers (AVS) can concur.

You'll also find plenty of NCM's that have college and/or university education.

 

[GnyHwy]

I would agree that you won't be challenged intellectually as an NCM, mostly at the Jnr level. As you move up there is more opportunity to challenge yourself intellectually, but run the risk of being stigmatized as a nerd that lacks leadership. As mentioned, there are NCM jobs that are intellectual, such as EO Tech and Sigs etc.; especially Sigs now with our attempt to network everything.

If you are looking for philosophical conversations, then NCM will not satisfy you. The NCM side is very practical, usually cut and dry, and hands on with little ambiguity. If you like ambiguity, then go O.

As you mentioned Arty, I will speak to that specifically. Once again, there is plenty of room to be intellectual in the NCM Arty realm, but you will run the risk of being classified as a nerd. IMO the Arty needs more technically sound persons, to the point that I would say we are deficient. Os do not engage in technicalities much, unless they have the background (math and computer science). Os also run the risk of being categorized as a nerd. Officers and higher NCM ranks tend to gravitate towards the social side of problem solving.   

That all said, there are plenty of NCMs that I put up for an IQ test against Os anytime.

If you have Arty specific questions, PM me anytime. 

 

[InfOCand]

Hi everyone,

This being my first post, I'm a current officer candidate at CFLRS for INF and had a question for any experienced officers or NCMs very familiar with the INF officer trade.

Obviously, there are many threads dedicated to the differences between being an officer versus being a NCM, and after many weeks here at CFLRS, it's becoming less and less enticing to become an officer. 

A little more info for context: I'm currently in the upper weeks of the BMOQ course and have done over 50% of the PCs required for graduation and multiple trips to Farnham.  I've also been course senior (CPC) and every other leadership role in the course.

I know that being in the course is NOT a good representation of what my career may involve should I be successful in graduating and making it through the other phases.  I also know I have ZERO experience compared to any CF member and would never suppose otherwise.

This all being said, I'm troubled by certain aspects of the officer position.  The way BMOQ shows the officer role is not the way I had imagined.  I love the idea of leading by example and maintaining a very high standard for myself and those around me, as well as helping everyone achieve the standards necessary (for this course, for example).  BUT what I was critiqued for, often and somewhat severely, was that I was too active in helping my subordinates as a leader.  From the way our NCOs on the course speak, officers lead from the rear and can't even think about getting dirty or physically helping any of their subordinates.  Not only that, we are sequestered so we're not too close to our subordinates.  The officers that are connected to our platoon also seem to insinuate these points often.

With regards to recruiting, I'm not convinced.  Obviously there are those who can come out of training (BMOQ/phases 2, 3, 4) and be competent enough to perform exercises fairly well with their units.  While I think I can do that, my issue is having Sergeants and Warrants under my command with sometimes over 20 years experience and being somehow "above" them in the hierarchy without having earned it.  I don't like this idea either.  I didn't grow up wealthy or priveleged and this almost feels wrong.

Down to the point, have any officers (in any trade, really) relate to these feelings and provide any advice?  I'm scheduling a meeting with my platoon 2IC (a PO1) to see what he thinks, but I'm seriously considering an attempted transfer to INF NCM.  I've never been wealthy and money doesn't matter to me versus life experience, but sometimes I get the feeling that the officer route might not be the best.

Thanks in advance.

 

[mariomike]

I'm seriously considering an attempted transfer to INF NCM. 

You may find these discussions of interest,

Switching from Officer to NCM ??? 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/25874.0

CT from Officer to NCM 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/58555.0

Officer to NCM 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/59171.0

Switching from Officer to NCM question on pay and rank 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/96892.0

Infantry soldier vs. Infantry officer 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/121378.0

Career advice - DEO Infantry Officer vs. NCM Infantry 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/110913.0

Officer/NCM differences 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/171.475
23 pages.

etc...

 

[ballz]

The way BMOQ shows the officer role is not the way I had imagined.  I love the idea of leading by example and maintaining a very high standard for myself and those around me, as well as helping everyone achieve the standards necessary (for this course, for example).  BUT what I was critiqued for, often and somewhat severely, was that I was too active in helping my subordinates as a leader.  From the way our NCOs on the course speak, officers lead from the rear and can't even think about getting dirty or physically helping any of their subordinates.

I assure you any officer in the Infantry Corps worth his epaulette leads from the front, not the rear, and gets dirty and physical in the course of his job. An Officer needs to focus on the bigger picture, so a Pl Comd shouldn't be jumping into a stack behind rifleman #4 and clearing a room, but that does not mean he's not there with the troops in the conduct of the battle. But its not his job to worry about the room, its his job to worry about the building, the windows, the streets on each side, etc... and he can't do that if he's focussed on only one room and not what is outside of that room.

There are also different cultures within the CAF. I find a lot of the stuff I hear out of the Navy and Air Force just quacked, but its a different job and relationships need to be different. So depending on the trades of your course staff, they may all have different perspectives.

With regards to recruiting, I'm not convinced.  Obviously there are those who can come out of training (BMOQ/phases 2, 3, 4) and be competent enough to perform exercises fairly well with their units.  While I think I can do that, my issue is having Sergeants and Warrants under my command with sometimes over 20 years experience and being somehow "above" them in the hierarchy without having earned it.  I don't like this idea either.  I didn't grow up wealthy or priveleged and this almost feels wrong.

As long as you are already self-aware of this, you are probably okay. This is not the army that deployed to the Boer War any more, Officers don't come from a different class of society and Officers don't show up to Bn as superior human beings. Those who do think they are, find out quickly they are not. However, if you don't have the confidence to be the person that makes the final decision and accepts the responsibility for that decision, then only you can make that call after some reflection. I can honestly say though that you should be second-guessing this to some extent, so that's normal.

Down to the point, have any officers (in any trade, really) relate to these feelings and provide any advice?

As an Infantry Officer, I had similar thoughts. I worried that the training provided was inadequate, and that being in command of some hard-charging, seasoned Warrant Officers and Sergeants and others was going to be an insurmountable barrier to overcome, not having shared their experiences with them and whatnot. But you aren't really challenging yourself if there is no shred of doubt in your own mind. In hindsight, the training was actually really good, and I showed up to the Battalion with more knowledge of platoon and company level operations than perhaps I had given myself credit for.

My only advice is to continue until you are complete BMOQ-L at the very least, if not Phase III. This will give you a better perspective on the army's way of doing things, and the Infantry's way of doing things, and more time to reflect inward. If you decide to change jobs, having these courses will only help you as you progress as an infantryman (as long as you stay humble, of course).

 

[sidemount]

I can tell you from experience that leading from the rear is the best thing in the world....if you want to lose the respect of your troops. The best officers I have worked with share in all the hardships and lead by example.

As well don't think of yourself above those sgts and WOs. The idea is that once you are at battalion you are a team working together to achieve the same goals. You will learn from them and in turn you will become a better officer because of it.

The way things go at BMOQ is not what it will be like at a unit.

Id personally wait until you are at a unit to see what it is actually like and make your decision then. Yes you can switch from officer to NCM. Before I made the switch from NCM to officer I had the pleasure of having a guy work for me that did just that. And in my opinion he would have been a great officer to work for if he didnt switch, and it was  attitude that made all the difference.

 

[ModlrMike]

The important thing to remember here is that there is the "school way" and the "real way". Frequently the two are at odds. Stick with it. You'll learn your most valuable and useful lessons once you start working with your troops.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This list puts hierarchy in to perspective for me.

Afghanistan KIA
Colonels    1
Majors    3
Captains    6
Lieutenants    3
Chief Warrant Officer    1
Master Warrant Officer    1
Warrant Officers    6
Sergeants    18
Master Corporals    16
Privates/Corporals    104

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

This all being said, I'm troubled by certain aspects of the officer position.  The way BMOQ shows the officer role is not the way I had imagined.  I love the idea of leading by example and maintaining a very high standard for myself and those around me, as well as helping everyone achieve the standards necessary (for this course, for example).  BUT what I was critiqued for, often and somewhat severely, was that I was too active in helping my subordinates as a leader.  From the way our NCOs on the course speak, officers lead from the rear and can't even think about getting dirty or physically helping any of their subordinates.  Not only that, we are sequestered so we're not too close to our subordinates.  The officers that are connected to our platoon also seem to insinuate these points often.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to Army.ca and indeed welcome to the Army.

You've received some excellent advice from Sidemount and ballz! Pay heed to their comments.

I know extremely little about you, but I sense that you are going through a crisis of confidence on your BMOQ. You note that you have been critiqued "somewhat severely" by your staff on your leadership techniques in that you get too involved. Can I guess that when you are in charge of a small party task or course admin activity that you are in there doing the physical work? Is this because some candidates are not able to do some tasks it as quickly or effectively as you? When you are the Course Senior are you doing "station jobs" yourself or are you assigning tasks and then supervising? If your small party task involves setting a up a Modular Tent are you the one doing most of the work while your subordinates watch?

Being a leader, at any rank level, involves knowing when it is appropriate to pitch in and when it is more appropriate to take a step back and supervise. There is certainly a time and place for a leader to set up modular tents with the group or help out with the heavy lifting. Usually, however, an officer should be maintaining his attention across the group's activities while remaining aware of issues "up and out" and not just focusing "down and in."

If you have six subordinates and one is not able to do the task as well as you can you have more options available than to just jump in and do his job for him. If you have time you could use one of your other more skilled subordinates to mentor the individual on the task. You could switch up the tasks to put people where their talents are best employed. You could mentor them off-line if they are open to it. Stepping in to do the task yourself should be the last resort. Bear in mind, though, that a BMOQ is not a really good approximation of a real infantry platoon. At the end of the day you are all peers on your course!

The staff are trying to help you develop your leadership techniques. They are very good at it. Heed their counsel and don't go into a navel-gazing tailspin.

Good luck,

T2B

 

[SAFTY]

I'm in the process of signing up to join my local engineering reserve regiment and I'm trying to figure out if I want to go Engineer Officer or Combat Engineer.

I have a B.Eng so I figured officer would be a natural fit, but I also don't want to be stuck at a desk doing administrative work more than I need to (I have previous Navy Reserve experience as an NCM, so I know that everyone gets their share of paperwork). Can anyone who is an Engineer Officer in the reserves share a little of their experience? What training opportunities do you get? What role do you play on exercises? Do you ever enviously look at the NCMs and wish you had their job instead?

Thanks!

 

[mariomike]

I'm trying to figure out if I want to go Engineer Officer or Combat Engineer.

For reference, perhaps this will be merged with,

Officer vs Combat Engineer
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/124365/post-1459315/topicseen.html#new
2 pages.