Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[Spr.Earl]

You wish to read a good Bio of a man who came up from the ranks?

Read the story of Chesty Puller,better than Audie Murphy,I'm not denigrating Audie but a great read and lesson in reading his bio of careing for your men and leadership.

No he's not a Candadian or Brit but a Yank.
He was a U.S. Marine.

Good night Chesty.

 

[pbi]

I only know of one case of this in the Regular Army, and he had to get out first then re-apply as an NCM. I have heard (as an aside...) that it is a practice in the US if a very junior officer is not performing well, to offer them NCM svc in another MOC. Any of our US friends able to comment on that? Cheers.

 

[mdh]

Stillwell was another famous US commander who came up from the ranks, read Stillwell and the American Experience in China by Barbara Tuchman, good book as well, cheers, mdh

 

[pbi]

No....what I mean is that the proper staffing is not getting done.  When deploying, it is not unusual to arrive and still not know what vehicle you may be in, what packet you may be in, not have a Route Card for all vehicles, some vehicles are still not marshalled because they are VOR'd,........just small things like that.

Hmmmm. I left Regtl duty in 1997, but--guess what--this sounds alot like a typical battalion road move back then (And I ran a few...) My impression was that the Road Mov O Gp was a waste of time (no matter who gave it--me or another OC Admin or the TO); almost nobody read route cards, nobody looked at route markers, alot of  people could not follow a map, and things like speed limits were not observed.

One unintended effect of having all officers come from the ranks is that you might actually see the regretable disappearance of the NCO or a reduction in his importance

Very interesting. At one of our Bde Comds Conf last year, one of our guest speakers was  retired Air Force General Linden, who is doing an extensive study on the NCO Corps. I sat in on a very interesting and enthusiastic session between him and our various unit RSMs. One of the issues that came up was that if we make the NCO corps a "ladder" to becoming an officer, then the NCO "class" as we know it (and IMHO as we very much need it...) will begin to vanish as a separate animal, with a sense of self pride and standards to be maintained, and its role as a repository of blunt honesty, common sense and military TTP knowledge. They will all have stars and bars in their eyes, and be ever so careful not to say or do anything that might undo their chances. This, IMHO, would be a disaster.

My theory is not the "ladder"-rather it is a springboard-you climb a short way-say, to DP1 or maybe even to MCpl, then you "spring" into the commission stream if you meet the requirements. Education could be a gateway for a selection, or a follow-on. I do not agree with the idea that every officer should become a Sgt or WO first: that would not work on several levels.

If the Army you are referring to is the Norwegian Army, I have heard they are now returning to where they were in WWII, when they had professional NCOs and WOs. A story about that "Army without NCOs":

Years ago I was 2IC of Key Company of an AMF(L) battalion, deployed into Norway for ARCTIC EXPRESS, the AMF(L) flyover. During a lull in the ex, the Norwegian company that was hosting us took us out to see some of their amazing national fortress system. The Norwegian 2IC was chatting with me as we were watching the Cdn coy unload from trucks. The following dialogue ensued:

(Norgy) "Who is that guy there, yelling and shouting?"

(Me) "That guy? That's the Company Sergeant Major."

"Company Sergeant Major? What is that?"

"The ass-kicker"

"Ahh--yes...."ass-kicker". This is what we need in Norwegian Army!"

Cheers.

 

[Chimo2803]

I'm not sure about where to ask this, but I noticed the words "rank" and "NCM", so I figured it was close enough...

I noticed on the CF Recruiting site, it states that some NCMs can be considered for Officer training with having a University degree...is this correct? If so...what is expected of you to be considered for this, and what would distinguish you from so many other, and probably well qualified NCMs in the forces. How long would you have to be in the forces to be offered this, and what rank would you have to attain to be considered.

Thanks...

 

[bossi]

"Ahh--yes...."***-kicker". This is what we need in Norwegian Army!"

GETE - yup - goes hand-in-hand with the Reader's Digest version:
"Officers lead, NCOs make it happen."

 

[043]

GETE - yup - goes hand-in-hand with the Reader's Digest version:
"Officers lead, NCOs make it happen."

I put it a slightly different way.........officers command, NCO's lead and make it happen.

 

[bossi]

I put it a slightly different way.........officers command, NCO's lead and make it happen.

No problem - just shows a slight "cultual" bias ...
(i.e. the infantry perspective of "follow me!" ... and the undefeatable "can do" attitude of the sapper!)

 

[pbi]

Ok-what does GETE mean? Cheers.

 

[MJP]

I have heard (as an aside...) that it is a practice in the US if a very junior officer is not performing well, to offer them NCM svc in another MOC.

Probably a rare instance in Canada as well, but I had a soldier that failed his course twice, was offered to become an NCM and he took it.

 

[George Wallace]

I am not arguing that it is not a bad thing that officers have to have a degree.   2Bravo touched on the point, that a degree is an assest for an officer.   The degree/diploma does not a leader make, but it is an asset in that leaders pocket.  

I think that we should look at our officer programs.   I question the idea of recruiting officers out of High School and giving them a free education at RMC.   These cadets are not always "leaders" and some may never learn enough in training to ever become leaders.   We should be looking at a proven source for our officer recruitment.   Look at the graduates of our Leadership Schools and offer the graduates of our Junior and Senior Leaders Courses and opportunity to get a Degree.   We would have people now entering RMC who are more "mature", experienced and already indocrinindoctrinatede military mindset.   We could probably give them a better education than what is given now, as things like Drill, GMK, etc. can be dropped from the ciriculumcurriculumay we would be saving dollars and giving proven leaders a Degree.

The fear of loosing the NCO Corps would be slight, as the CF Rank Structure should have a pyramid shape.   Initially the implementation of this may cause some concern in the ranks, but once in motion it should sort itself out.   Not all NCOs want to become Officers.   Only so many could be elected/selected to the program per year after initiation.  

I think this would benifit us grebenefit I know of no other organization in the world that recruits its' CEOs straight out of High School and then tries to train them for the "Top".

GW

 

[chaos75]

As was stated above, there are 4 ways to become an officer from the ncm ranks.

1) UTPNCM - have to be a corporal substantive (QL5) and have 2 full university credits already.  Heres a likn to help you out with that info.
http://utpncm.rmcclub.ca/

2) CFR - For outstanding MCpls and above, very competitive and most of the time stay in the same trade

3) SCP - For senior NCO's only, i.e. making MWO' and Chiefs into Capt to fill a needed officer position immediately

4) Get out, and reapply as DEO (if you have finished your degree), or ROTP to be sent to school

For an officer to switch to NCM

1) If there already commisioned and trade qualified they will have to get out and get back in

2) If there in but havent passed their phase course, they may be offered or can apply to revert to NCM, and the decision depends on whether there is room and the trade choices are usually limited

 

[Infanteer]

As I've stated before, I agree with PBI's sentiments.

As well, I'm not to sure that the argument that taking out Officers from the ranks will have a huge impact on the NCO Corps.  As it stands now, the Officer Corps is fairly easy to get into - get your degree and apply at CFRC.  In Canada, a degree isn't very hard to get (funding means cheap tuition, access to many different schools and programs, etc, etc)  So, if we have the Commission open to anyone with a little determination, why isn't the NCO Corps hemmeraging people who gun for a nice salary and a desk job?

Obviously, there is a bit of self-selection involved.  In the proposals I've made, aspiring for a commission involves making one's CofC aware that one is interested.  Many soldiers will not want to make the jump, instead focusing on developing as excellent NCOs.

But this touches upon a question that was brought up earlier in the thread.  Is there different qualities and abilities demanded of the soldiers you want to commission and the soldiers you want to develop into NCO's?  If there as, perhaps we should start identifying ways to pick these traits out and start work early in maintaining a solid NCO Corps.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

But this touches upon a question that was brought up earlier in the thread.   Is there different qualities and abilities demanded of the soldiers you want to commission and the soldiers you want to develop into NCO's?   If there as, perhaps we should start identifying ways to pick these traits out and start work early in maintaining a solid NCO Corps.

That is an interesting question, as I believe that it speaks to the innate as opposed to the learned, to character and not characteristics.   So if we accept that both officers and NCOs lead (with apologies to Mike Coutts - sorry Mike, I don't buy your distinction), is there something in the situation in which each must lead that demands specific traits?

This may be stepping into a minefield, so let me start by saying that I have been blessed, throughout my career, with the prprivilege of working with some truly outstanding Sr NCOs.   Any success that I or my various platoons companies and staffs have had over the years has been due in large part to those NCOs, and I have been taught and shaped by them in every sense.   Their leadership has been, and probably will continue to be, of greater impact and importance than whatever leadership I have provided.  

Yet still, there is a difference between me and my NCOs (besides training and education (most of them have been more educated than me...), so what is it?    

I believe that the fundamental difference is one of accountability and responsibility (which is of course derived from authority).   The officer is ultimately responsible and accountable for the actions of his command, including his NCO leaders, whereas the NCO leads within the protective shield provided by the officer.  

If one accepts that, then the traits that we would look for would be self-confidence, self-reliance, moral courage (ie the courage of ones convictions), judgement, and humility.

I may have it all wrong, but I rest assured that if so, I will soon be corrected...

Dave


Edited due to that dastardly spell check thingie that adds in extra letters etc...grr.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
I believe that the fufundamental difference is one of accountability and responsibility (which is of course derived from authority).  The officer is ultimately responsible and accountable for the actions of his command, including his NCO leaders, whereas the NCO leads within the protective shield provided by the officer. 

I agree with this, and where I think things went wrong more in my day was that there was not a whole lot of operational [ not training] experience to show who was a good leader but instead, because of that circumstance, more of a political setting and, as we all know, politicians [of any sort] have never been good at falling on their sword if things screwed up on their watch and so no one along the chain felt 100% confident that they were in that "protective shield"
In my opinion, there is a whole world of difference in being the first and loudest to yell out " follow me men" when its training and saying the same thing somewhere in Afghanistan.....live.
I'm of the opinion that, if we can keep them in, the military will have the best leaders over the next 10 years that they have ever had.

Sorry if this rambled, not really "my lane".
Bruce

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

PBI,

You guessed it!  I worked closely with an excellent Norwegian company for about a month during the CLJ.  While we had many similarities, the most striking difference was the lack of NCOs.  As an aside, however, I was impressed with their organization of the CV9030 Platoon.  Each vehicle had an armoured crew and an dismounted section with a leader for both.  Combine their force organization with our leadership structure (ie professional NCOs) and you have a pretty darn good force!

George,

I wouldn't say that we recruit our "CEOs" out of high school.  Our training system weeds out a lot of people (combat arms Phase training is pretty rigorous) and junior officers are always undergoing some form of tutelage (myself included).  There are a fair amount of checks and balances in place before you get to the level of OC or higher.

Infanteer,

I agree that the aspects of leadership performed by officers and NCOs in our Army are somewhat different and that they require different characteristics.  Success in one does not guarantee success in the other (some good officers would make bad NCOs and vice versa).  I think that a bigger problem in our Army is not having too many leaders but rather having leaders who try to do each others jobs.  

Cheers,

Iain

 

[bossi]

Ok-what does GETE mean?

Well, it's right up there with Toe-Jam (TJMMD = "That Just Made My Day")
GETE is LOL with a silencer = Grinning Ear To Ear, also written GE2 or GE squared, but I thought I'd be gentle on the Luddites/senior citizens reading here and spell out the acronym in full ... ;D

 

[pbi]

but I thought I'd be gentle on the Luddites/senior citizens reading here and spell out the acronym in full ...

:rage: :rage: :threat: :skull: :gunner: :flame:

Cheers

 

[tomahawk6]

Very interesting thread with alot of great comments. At one time I too thought that prospective officer's should start as private's. Now I think its not as important the source of the officer as the quality of cadet training to prepare that cadet for his first duty assignment as a platoon leader. Lt's are mentored by their NCO's- if they allow it. In other words there are new 2Lt's who know they lack practical experience and then there are the guy's that think they know everything and can do anything. In the case of the latter they have a rough time. Young officer's need to learn the ropes from their NCO's as well as from their company commander. The successful company CO must have effective platoon leader's ,to affect this the company CO must mentor their platoon leader's and get them to be open minded in taking advice from their senior NCO's.

There has been some discussion about adopting the UK/Canadian system where Major's command a company. This might work in a smaller army where you want to create job's for Major's. I think it creates a glut of Major's with limited opportunity to advance to LTC. Our most recent promotion list to Major selected an amazing 96% of eligible Captain's. But selection to LTC is even more competitive and until Iraq we utilize an up or out policy. Meaning if you are passed over twice you are out [under the rank of LTC]. If a LTC fail's to get promoted he/she can stay until manadatory retirement. I think Major's are future battalion commander's and need to be a Bn S-3 and a Bn XO not a company CO. Our junior leader's [Lt/Capt] have done an outstanding job in both Iraq and Afghanistan so our officer training must be effective.

 

[Radop]

I noticed on the CF Recruiting site, it states that some NCMs can be considered for Officer training with having a University degree...is this correct? If so...what is expected of you to be considered for this, and what would distinguish you from so many other, and probably well qualified NCMs in the forces. How long would you have to be in the forces to be offered this, and what rank would you have to attain to be considered.

It is called the Special Commissioning Plan and you must have an approved degree in the classification you choose.  For example, if you were to choose CELI Officer, you would have to have an Engineering Degree or Computer Science Degree.  The best person to talk to is the BPSO.  They should be able to answer everything for you.