Reserve Call Outs/Employment Full Time
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LowRider said:
Well that was cute.
I would think that renumeration should be for the task done. For example, an Infantry officer getting payed for being a Course Officer at a Training Center is performing the same duties and has the same responsibilities (and the end result is the same). How you can conclude that one is "chicken salad" and one is "chicken shit" is beyond me.
MJP
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PJ D-DOG
Well I can see we are at an impasse. You want equal pay for Reserves and I see the extra 15% as a â Å“benefitâ ? for uncertainty. Many of the points you bring up are valid and well you see the solution as bridging the gap and giving everyone the same base pay. CEF brings out the point of equal pay for equal work and to a degree I agree. I still maintain that a Reg Force soldier has to deal with much much more uncertainty in his environment than a reserve soldier. But my view is my view and yours and mine obviously differ and we aren't going to agree. I firmly believe that merely increasing pay is avoiding some of the real issues, some of which you and others have brought up. So to steer it away from our differences I've highlighted some of the other key issues and in some cases solutions
1. No real reserve pension as of yet. I know it's being worked on but until it's established it always going to be a sore point for the minority of reservists that work almost exclusively back to back Class B.
2. Perceived misuse of Class B soldiers. Using them for cheap labour so to speak. I agree with Britney and the fact there is always someone willing to fill the spot and there is no quick fix. Some of the discontent lies around pers that fulfill jobs that a Reg Force soldier would do or when their task load is high. Maybe look at reimplementing Class C contracts again?
3. No job protection legislation for reservists and no incentive for employers to release their employees for training. I like Infanteers idea of a tax break for an employer and I firmly believe that reserves should have some sort of job protection. Whether it is like the US model or some thing similar doesn't matter, we just need it.
4. The point of training has been brought up a few times. I have stayed away from the training aspect mainly because a reservist has no real control over the type of training offered to him and due to the nature of reserves it won't always be to the same caliber that his Reg Force counterpart can achieve. The latter can spend weeks in the field at a time working on each individual aspect, while a reservist has a mandated 37.5 training days a year (give or take a few). I know that brigade exercises have become much much better in the reserve world than what they use to be. Plus I know they are trying to integrate them more into our BTE's and brigade ex's. Simply put most Reservists don't get the training time and experience that a Regular force member attains in the same time span. So the unit leadership has to make sure that training days are well planned and are important to the soldier. Sweeping the floor or hanging out in the PL room sucks and shouldn't be the norm.
5. Full time days on some contracts don't equal one day when a member CTs, comes on tour with the Reg Force, or when it is applied to his pension. This is a simple fix IMHO 1 Day Class B=1 Day Time Credited to Promotion. This has to go hand in hand with point one.
Well I can see we are at an impasse. You want equal pay for Reserves and I see the extra 15% as a â Å“benefitâ ? for uncertainty. Many of the points you bring up are valid and well you see the solution as bridging the gap and giving everyone the same base pay. CEF brings out the point of equal pay for equal work and to a degree I agree. I still maintain that a Reg Force soldier has to deal with much much more uncertainty in his environment than a reserve soldier. But my view is my view and yours and mine obviously differ and we aren't going to agree. I firmly believe that merely increasing pay is avoiding some of the real issues, some of which you and others have brought up. So to steer it away from our differences I've highlighted some of the other key issues and in some cases solutions
1. No real reserve pension as of yet. I know it's being worked on but until it's established it always going to be a sore point for the minority of reservists that work almost exclusively back to back Class B.
2. Perceived misuse of Class B soldiers. Using them for cheap labour so to speak. I agree with Britney and the fact there is always someone willing to fill the spot and there is no quick fix. Some of the discontent lies around pers that fulfill jobs that a Reg Force soldier would do or when their task load is high. Maybe look at reimplementing Class C contracts again?
3. No job protection legislation for reservists and no incentive for employers to release their employees for training. I like Infanteers idea of a tax break for an employer and I firmly believe that reserves should have some sort of job protection. Whether it is like the US model or some thing similar doesn't matter, we just need it.
4. The point of training has been brought up a few times. I have stayed away from the training aspect mainly because a reservist has no real control over the type of training offered to him and due to the nature of reserves it won't always be to the same caliber that his Reg Force counterpart can achieve. The latter can spend weeks in the field at a time working on each individual aspect, while a reservist has a mandated 37.5 training days a year (give or take a few). I know that brigade exercises have become much much better in the reserve world than what they use to be. Plus I know they are trying to integrate them more into our BTE's and brigade ex's. Simply put most Reservists don't get the training time and experience that a Regular force member attains in the same time span. So the unit leadership has to make sure that training days are well planned and are important to the soldier. Sweeping the floor or hanging out in the PL room sucks and shouldn't be the norm.
5. Full time days on some contracts don't equal one day when a member CTs, comes on tour with the Reg Force, or when it is applied to his pension. This is a simple fix IMHO 1 Day Class B=1 Day Time Credited to Promotion. This has to go hand in hand with point one.
C
CH1
Guest
Actually, there is the job protection clause, & there used to be 3 & 5 year contracts. Class B used to pay almost the same as Reg. These things I do beleive, are still there, but the masters cost cutting, has put lots of things into the closet. At one time, Regs didn't have to buy combat insurance. We used to be looked after by the system. At one time Res F pers could opt to contribute to the CF pension plan. (the old 100% & early 60/40 plan).
Cheers
Cheers
Haggis
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CH1 said:
Legislated job protection does not yet exist, but is proposed under Bill C-55.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/Bills_ls.asp?lang=E&Parl=37&Ses=1&ls=C55&source=Bills_House_Government#G. Protection%20of%20Civil%20Employment%20of%20Reservists(txt)
If passed, it will only exist when a member is placed on active duty during an emergency. If a Reservist volunteers for serve at any other time s/he is not entitled to job protection. CFLC has made great progress in having job protection clauses entrenched into collective agreements and statements signed by employers indicating that they support thier citizen soldiers.
I've been around since the mid 70's and can say with some certainty that Class A and B service has NEVER had pay even close to being equivalent to Reg F. Until 1998, Class A and B pay pates were set at 50% of Reg F rates, up from 45% a few years earlier. In early 1998 pay rates jumped to 85%. You must be thinking of Class C rates which are equivalent to Reg F. In fact, Class C service is equivalent in all respects to Reg F service except that you only serve for a fixed period on a set task.
Currently a Reservist can serve for as long as his/her position number is valid. No more ceiling except that the length of the contract cannot exeed the vaildity of the position. If the position is renewed, the incumbent can be as well.
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The HQ offering the contract can limit the duration when the contract is offered: here in 38 CBG we used to offer three years but we have recently cut back to one year. And, as far as I know, the incumbent can't simply be renewed-they must compete against all other applicants at the end of the contract duration.
Cheers.
Haggis
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pbi said:
True enough. I was speaking in a general term and was probably remiss in not pointing out that simply because a position exists for three years doesn't mean that the holder has it for the entire term. You can hire a new member every six months if you desire and are willing to put out the staff work to do it.
FormerHorseGuard
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thought i would share some funny moments from my exerpiences as a former res on long term call outs
I worked as a paper pusher at a HQ and worked at my res unit at night and weekends.
where I worked it was brass heavy like most HQs and as the ranks got lower they thinned it out very quick.
work detailslike on clean up days at the base, always was run by the section head who was lcol or maj, who answered to the COS a full col or a Bgen.
so life for a guy like me who was a cpl it was different.
i was never taught what what do when the general came in to the restroom and was waiting in line for me to finish, the building only had one restroom per floor per sex. basic training did not cover that , or i missed that lecture. incase your wondering hurry up and get out of the way.
headdress came off once you got to work , did not have to wear it between buildings, temp offices and main buildings, so saluting was not a big thing, maybe a few times a day as you walked around the base.
I kept count one week how many times I saluted in a day at my full time army job, it was less then 5 times, went to my res unit that night and it was headdress on all the time unless I was sitting in my office working, i saluted more then 30 times that night as I went about my duties. sometimes res units are more army then full time army units. i thought i should start charging for salutes.
after being at the HQ for 2 years and doing my job I went on my CLC at the RCR battle school in petawawa. it was a huge shock for me, coming to attention for MCPLs and above, i forgot how many times I forgot to call room as the drill staff walked in, i would just look up and think it is just a mcpl and forget about it.
we seldom did parades at the HQ and it being so brass heavy, they could formed up platoons of majors and above, and they would pick in advance who was to have various duties on parade because they had too many sgts, wo's,sgt majors and a lot of cwo's running around.
a drill stadd asked me once when the last time as a cpl i gave drill and I looked at him and told it was lthe friday before the course started , i lined up the COS ( full col) and the MGen and the RSM at the HQ on the parking lot between coffe breaks and give drill. told him till that class I had never given a drill command in my life. never had the chance i was busy working no time to give drill. I thought the Sgt was going to kill me for me being so flip with him.
I guess my army background was not typical of most res force or reg force members because HQ duties do spoil you for the the other side of the army. I seldom worn combat uniforms, had more work dress then you could use on course locker inspection.
Class BA callouts can be fun and educational. I guess they are now getting fewer and fewer with budget cuts?
I worked as a paper pusher at a HQ and worked at my res unit at night and weekends.
where I worked it was brass heavy like most HQs and as the ranks got lower they thinned it out very quick.
work detailslike on clean up days at the base, always was run by the section head who was lcol or maj, who answered to the COS a full col or a Bgen.
so life for a guy like me who was a cpl it was different.
i was never taught what what do when the general came in to the restroom and was waiting in line for me to finish, the building only had one restroom per floor per sex. basic training did not cover that , or i missed that lecture. incase your wondering hurry up and get out of the way.
headdress came off once you got to work , did not have to wear it between buildings, temp offices and main buildings, so saluting was not a big thing, maybe a few times a day as you walked around the base.
I kept count one week how many times I saluted in a day at my full time army job, it was less then 5 times, went to my res unit that night and it was headdress on all the time unless I was sitting in my office working, i saluted more then 30 times that night as I went about my duties. sometimes res units are more army then full time army units. i thought i should start charging for salutes.
after being at the HQ for 2 years and doing my job I went on my CLC at the RCR battle school in petawawa. it was a huge shock for me, coming to attention for MCPLs and above, i forgot how many times I forgot to call room as the drill staff walked in, i would just look up and think it is just a mcpl and forget about it.
we seldom did parades at the HQ and it being so brass heavy, they could formed up platoons of majors and above, and they would pick in advance who was to have various duties on parade because they had too many sgts, wo's,sgt majors and a lot of cwo's running around.
a drill stadd asked me once when the last time as a cpl i gave drill and I looked at him and told it was lthe friday before the course started , i lined up the COS ( full col) and the MGen and the RSM at the HQ on the parking lot between coffe breaks and give drill. told him till that class I had never given a drill command in my life. never had the chance i was busy working no time to give drill. I thought the Sgt was going to kill me for me being so flip with him.
I guess my army background was not typical of most res force or reg force members because HQ duties do spoil you for the the other side of the army. I seldom worn combat uniforms, had more work dress then you could use on course locker inspection.
Class BA callouts can be fun and educational. I guess they are now getting fewer and fewer with budget cuts?
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There are certain positions in the Army Reserve (and other parts of the Primary Reserve) designated as full-time. Many are for RMS clerks, performing administrative and finance duties. Generally, such positions are announced, interested applicants submit their name via their chain of command, and if selected the individual will serve for a period of three years, with a possibility of one renewal for a second three year period.
There are other positions created on an as-required basis to meet specific needs: some are for relatively short periods of time (2-3 months), other for periods of up to two years.
There are positions at most rank levels; most full-time positions are for Cpls, MCpls, Sgts and WOs; among officers, Capts and Majs are in the most demand.
Beyond this, there are opportunities for overseas deployments; these vary depending on the mission, and the Land Force Area tasked to generate the soldiers for the mission.
There are other positions created on an as-required basis to meet specific needs: some are for relatively short periods of time (2-3 months), other for periods of up to two years.
There are positions at most rank levels; most full-time positions are for Cpls, MCpls, Sgts and WOs; among officers, Capts and Majs are in the most demand.
Beyond this, there are opportunities for overseas deployments; these vary depending on the mission, and the Land Force Area tasked to generate the soldiers for the mission.
Trinity
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Why would want to be a full time reservist.
You get somewhat less pay than your full time reg force counterparts.
You're benefits are less (pension) or only available while on contract.
When your 6 month contract is up for renewal there is no guarantee you'll
get your position back so job stability is always looming over your head.
Being a Class B junkie.. isn't the best way to go.
Take a class B, if you like it a lot, then look into the regular force.
You get somewhat less pay than your full time reg force counterparts.
You're benefits are less (pension) or only available while on contract.
When your 6 month contract is up for renewal there is no guarantee you'll
get your position back so job stability is always looming over your head.
Being a Class B junkie.. isn't the best way to go.
Take a class B, if you like it a lot, then look into the regular force.
Trinity said:
There could be a variety of reasons why.
However keep in mind that as a private (expect to be in that rank for at least two years) you probably won't get too many Class B opportunities other than summer tasks and training. And as Trinity mentioned job security is an issue. Contracts are all fine and dandy but you might have to bounce around a lot. there aren't too many "secure Class B" jobs out there.
Also (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong) Toronto does not have too much of a military presence in comparison with places like Halifax or Ottawa for example where there are numerous job postings.
That being said you should still try the reserves out. Itr's good way to see if teh Regular Force is for you.
Haggis
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dapaterson said:
There is no published limit to the number of extensions the incumbent can have, as long as s/he still meets all the prerequsites for employment This is particularly true for members with a very specific skill set or detailed corporate knowledge of the business of their section/unit/directorate.
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Haggis said:
I don't know if it is true for all comands - but here in Kingston for CommRes and CDA etc - the Class B Reserves have to compete for any position that will be filled longer than 3 years... and every 3 years thereafter.
I am not sure what the specifics are around it - this is new since I was in.
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What are the Army and Air Reserves like for Class C billets? For the Navy Reserves, if you are posted to a core crew billet on an MCDV, or any of the positions at Port Security Section, you are on a Class C contract. All of the benefits of Reg F, without the pension of course....but they say it's coming.....
Haggis
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All commands must hire reservists using the procedures outlined in CMP Instruction 20-04. It's a national policy.muffin said:
As I said in an earlier post a Reserve POSITION can exist for a maximum of three years. Any longer and it becomes a Reg F position. A Reservist can be hired to fill all or any portion of the position's lifespan (3 X 1 year contracts, competed annually or one three year contract) The Reservist's contract end date cannot extend beyond the expiry date of the position.
Example: A Range Control position is established at CFB Somewhere for three years, expiring 31 March 09. Cpl Bloggins applies for and is hired into this position for the duration. Two years in, he does something stupid and is terminated. Cpl Smith is hired to fill the same position, essentially finishing off the lifespan of Cpl Bloggin's position. Cpl Smith's expiry date must be on or before 31 March 09. Cpl Smith cannot work beyond that date in the ORIGINAL position. If Range Control wish to extend his employment, they must first create a new position number for him to occupy for up to three more years.
Clear as mud???
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Taking into account the shortages at pert much all rank levels, the positions available to reservists will continue to be available to reservists for many years to come.
You have to be fit, good at what you do and meet the universality of service. Being available for deployment is a bonus.
You have to be fit, good at what you do and meet the universality of service. Being available for deployment is a bonus.
No doubt. But I have to agree that TOS for long term class B employement need to be changed. Both to benefit the member and the employing unit as well.
Too many times I've seen reservists up and quitting because they didn't like the job they had only to bounce to another job elsewhere. There should be a minimum time served in a contract and a penalty for those that breach that.
With that caveat you could increase the 15% difference by some but not all.
Too many times I've seen reservists up and quitting because they didn't like the job they had only to bounce to another job elsewhere. There should be a minimum time served in a contract and a penalty for those that breach that.
With that caveat you could increase the 15% difference by some but not all.
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job protection would be nice. should be some kind of law that prevents employers from giving away your full time job somewhere just because you were on tour a few times... i mean, employers could hire part time workers to fill your position while your gone, im sure thos part timers understand that their part time job would not be perm, could even tell them why the part time position opened up ie) we have a soldier away on tour ;P
as for bonuses during xmas & whatnot, that would really boost my feelings towards the military! i mean... here, we get pretty much no work from december to like feb ... unless you are tasked away from your unit somewhere, so it kind of sucks.. they pretty much leave you high & dry
worse if you are a student & need your reserve pay to help you along, also...
as far as i know, if you miss 3 trg days.. without a valid reason, you can get in alot of trouble... & if you are just a moron, if your unit doesn't respect you.. they could perhaps start the process of releasing you
i know i was very sick once, believe it was a thursday night, and we had an ex that weekend... you could obviously tell i was not feeling well that night, so i told my sct cmd i wasn't feeling to hot & would like to get this weekend off (i never miss training) .. anyway, i had to wait like a day at a hospital for a checkup suffering there haha... and in the end i slapped a photo copy of the doc's orders on my WO's door & left cause no one was around, very uncool
there are a crazy number of things that could be done, to keep reservists coming back to work
also, as for trg schedules... i find aren't accurate at all, constantly changing ... since i've been in, i don't think i've ever had a schedule that ever stuck to the dates also making it hard for civilian employer to keep you around...
friend of mine had to get laid off from his civilian job, to go away on a callout.... out of nowhere, the callout was canceled... and he had no job to go back to, yikes!
as for bonuses during xmas & whatnot, that would really boost my feelings towards the military! i mean... here, we get pretty much no work from december to like feb ... unless you are tasked away from your unit somewhere, so it kind of sucks.. they pretty much leave you high & dry
worse if you are a student & need your reserve pay to help you along, also... as far as i know, if you miss 3 trg days.. without a valid reason, you can get in alot of trouble... & if you are just a moron, if your unit doesn't respect you.. they could perhaps start the process of releasing you
i know i was very sick once, believe it was a thursday night, and we had an ex that weekend... you could obviously tell i was not feeling well that night, so i told my sct cmd i wasn't feeling to hot & would like to get this weekend off (i never miss training) .. anyway, i had to wait like a day at a hospital for a checkup
suffering there haha... and in the end i slapped a photo copy of the doc's orders on my WO's door & left cause no one was around, very uncool there are a crazy number of things that could be done, to keep reservists coming back to work
also, as for trg schedules... i find aren't accurate at all, constantly changing ... since i've been in, i don't think i've ever had a schedule that ever stuck to the dates
also making it hard for civilian employer to keep you around... friend of mine had to get laid off from his civilian job, to go away on a callout.... out of nowhere, the callout was canceled... and he had no job to go back to, yikes!
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Haggis: CMP 20/04 places the limit of six years in a position. Para 4.9 reads (in part)
With the concurrence of the employing unit, an extension to a period of Cl “B” Res Svc for the same mbr at the same rank against the same posn, which has not expired, does not require an additional notification msg. The incumbent cannot exceed a maximum of six years in the same position without an additional notification message.
There are two kinds of full-time reserve positions: temporary and permanent. Temp positions are lime-limited; permanent ones are not. In theory, permanent full-time reserve positions are those in support of the reserve force; temp positions can be for almost any purpose.
Establishment management is a voodoo art all its own; there are numerous restrictions on the creation of positions (for example, Cols, Generals and CWOs all require detailed written substantiation for new positions), differences in Regular and Reserve positions management, and differences between part-time Reserve positions, permanent full-time and temporary full-time positions. Sometimes I think the intent is to ensure full employment for all staff officers.
With the concurrence of the employing unit, an extension to a period of Cl “B” Res Svc for the same mbr at the same rank against the same posn, which has not expired, does not require an additional notification msg. The incumbent cannot exceed a maximum of six years in the same position without an additional notification message.
There are two kinds of full-time reserve positions: temporary and permanent. Temp positions are lime-limited; permanent ones are not. In theory, permanent full-time reserve positions are those in support of the reserve force; temp positions can be for almost any purpose.
Establishment management is a voodoo art all its own; there are numerous restrictions on the creation of positions (for example, Cols, Generals and CWOs all require detailed written substantiation for new positions), differences in Regular and Reserve positions management, and differences between part-time Reserve positions, permanent full-time and temporary full-time positions. Sometimes I think the intent is to ensure full employment for all staff officers.
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