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CFL said:
Because the Toronto Police press release made specific mention of it.
Regent Park Murder, Army Reservists convicted in homeless man's death
- Thread starter medic65726
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Because the Toronto Police press release made specific mention of it.
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ctv just reported they were at a social function at the armories that evening, They did not say what type of social function. That cant be good news for members of the armed forces.
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Several years ago, the 48th Highlanders were training on a weekend morning at Moss Park Armoury. A section was outside for a fresh air break, and one Highlander spotted a homeless man being assaulted across the street. Without hestitation, the Section Commander immediately led his troops across the street - a couple split off and gave chase, other gave first aid, another was sent back to the Armoury for blankets to cover the victim, while others controlled the scene.
When the poilce arrived to arrest the attacker, they blurted out that they were surprised the Highlanders hadn't worked him over - the reply? "That would have been wrong."
I note also that a female witness attempted to intervene - one woman against three young men ... I salute her for trying to do the right thing.
People in very high places knew about this on Wednesday, possibly/probably due to NIS involvement.
And, on the topic of media coverage, it's twice as galling when you realise the Star had just published some good coverage of Ex STALWART GUARDIAN ... and now that's all forgotten.
Perhaps you noticed the Star photographs ... ?
When the poilce arrived to arrest the attacker, they blurted out that they were surprised the Highlanders hadn't worked him over - the reply? "That would have been wrong."
I note also that a female witness attempted to intervene - one woman against three young men ... I salute her for trying to do the right thing.
Kat Stevens said:
People in very high places knew about this on Wednesday, possibly/probably due to NIS involvement.
And, on the topic of media coverage, it's twice as galling when you realise the Star had just published some good coverage of Ex STALWART GUARDIAN ... and now that's all forgotten.
Perhaps you noticed the Star photographs ... ?
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Mod edit for inappropriate comments
Stay in the lane!
Anyways... I just watched the City TV (Toronto) coverage.... They discuss the men beating him to death as they zoom out of some weapon in front of the armoury... I saw it as a bit symbolic but then again I could be reading into things.
This is by no means a smear compaign but as stated before... Where is all the positive coverage!?
Stay in the lane!
Anyways... I just watched the City TV (Toronto) coverage.... They discuss the men beating him to death as they zoom out of some weapon in front of the armoury... I saw it as a bit symbolic but then again I could be reading into things.
This is by no means a smear compaign but as stated before... Where is all the positive coverage!?
FormerHorseGuard
Sr. Member
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it is a dark day for the QOR, Moss Park and everyone else involved. The facts were reported are all important in the story. The suspects, names, ages, and background are all news worthy, the location is important factor in the story. I am sure NIS is on the case to make sure the suspects were not on duty or if they were on duty, what they were doing there?
I am sure this will get more coverage and such as the court dates are made and the facts come out, or the lack of facts.
I am sure the Toronto District Commander, QOR CO and the OIC armory have had a few long chats or something about this matter. They would be meeting if the story was of a positive nature, and be meeting more since it is not a good story coming out.
this is not something res troops are trained to do and I hope the idea that this is a rare incident comes out and maybe some of the posiitive things the units down at the Park have done will come out too.
The CF is made up of a lot of people, uniformed and civilies, we do have some bad or near bad apples that make up the CF and that is the way it is. I hope the people realize that not every member of the QOR is involved, and I hope people realize that 3 people do not reflect an entire unit.
Would be a good time for the QOR CO and Public affairs officer arrange some sort of positive Homeless and Unit thing, get some of the troops out to help out at a local soup kitchen or something and have them show the better side of the unit. even if the media does not report it, have the homeless people realize that they are not having to fear the troops
I am hoping something positive comes out of this
I am sure this will get more coverage and such as the court dates are made and the facts come out, or the lack of facts.
I am sure the Toronto District Commander, QOR CO and the OIC armory have had a few long chats or something about this matter. They would be meeting if the story was of a positive nature, and be meeting more since it is not a good story coming out.
this is not something res troops are trained to do and I hope the idea that this is a rare incident comes out and maybe some of the posiitive things the units down at the Park have done will come out too.
The CF is made up of a lot of people, uniformed and civilies, we do have some bad or near bad apples that make up the CF and that is the way it is. I hope the people realize that not every member of the QOR is involved, and I hope people realize that 3 people do not reflect an entire unit.
Would be a good time for the QOR CO and Public affairs officer arrange some sort of positive Homeless and Unit thing, get some of the troops out to help out at a local soup kitchen or something and have them show the better side of the unit. even if the media does not report it, have the homeless people realize that they are not having to fear the troops
I am hoping something positive comes out of this
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Slim said:
I'd been wondering whether the three accused lived in Regent Park, or were there for other reasons.
Here's a partial update:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125784210116&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
(may require online registration with Toronto Star)
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Having just come back from Stalwart Guardian this year working with these guys, one of whom was in my wpns pl, I can only say that I am shocked over the whole thing. Totally didn't see it coming, but I guess one never does.
I am sincerely hoping that the scenario turns out to be three lads with too much alcohol in their system, and nothing more than a perceived slight and senseless act of violence, rather than a preventable event resulting from, as some have suggested, broken homes, violent histories, etc, not screened out during hiring.
In other words, I hope that if the allegations turn out to be true, then it was just a random, isolated incident which just happens to involve three young buddies who succumbed to a momentary lapse of common sense and decency, and that they just happened to all be in the same part-time job, leaving a work function.
I just can't see these guys going out of their way to beat up homeless people for no reason whatsoever.
But one thing is for sure, this is going to reflect poorly on all of us.
I am sincerely hoping that the scenario turns out to be three lads with too much alcohol in their system, and nothing more than a perceived slight and senseless act of violence, rather than a preventable event resulting from, as some have suggested, broken homes, violent histories, etc, not screened out during hiring.
In other words, I hope that if the allegations turn out to be true, then it was just a random, isolated incident which just happens to involve three young buddies who succumbed to a momentary lapse of common sense and decency, and that they just happened to all be in the same part-time job, leaving a work function.
I just can't see these guys going out of their way to beat up homeless people for no reason whatsoever.
But one thing is for sure, this is going to reflect poorly on all of us.
In Toronto, three young men, whose names and ages have been published will appear in custody
in a Toronto based Provincial Court, for arraingment related to their part in an incident which has
resulted in the application of formal charges under the Criminal Code of Canada Revised (CCCR).The
fact is, that we know little or nothing about the circumstances or details of the incident, nor will
we until the Toronto based media focus on the incident and the alleged criminal offence forming
the critical part of the incident. The most significant question is, how will the media react to this
incident? The Toronto Star will have a particular perspective; so will the Sun. Where will the Globe
go with this? The reaction of the media will be the catalyst of reaction from MND/DND - what will
it be? My opinion is that the connection of the accused with the CF has nothing whatever to do
with their participation in the alleged offence/offences; they, not the CF have ultimate responsibility
for actions they are accused of committing, resulting in a criminal prosecution. They remain however
the accused, potentially liable (liability is the critical factor in Criminal Law in Canada), and required
to answer to the law, not the Canadian Forces. MacLeod
in a Toronto based Provincial Court, for arraingment related to their part in an incident which has
resulted in the application of formal charges under the Criminal Code of Canada Revised (CCCR).The
fact is, that we know little or nothing about the circumstances or details of the incident, nor will
we until the Toronto based media focus on the incident and the alleged criminal offence forming
the critical part of the incident. The most significant question is, how will the media react to this
incident? The Toronto Star will have a particular perspective; so will the Sun. Where will the Globe
go with this? The reaction of the media will be the catalyst of reaction from MND/DND - what will
it be? My opinion is that the connection of the accused with the CF has nothing whatever to do
with their participation in the alleged offence/offences; they, not the CF have ultimate responsibility
for actions they are accused of committing, resulting in a criminal prosecution. They remain however
the accused, potentially liable (liability is the critical factor in Criminal Law in Canada), and required
to answer to the law, not the Canadian Forces. MacLeod
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If it should transpire these 3 are guilty, then they should be treated like any other citizen convicted of the same offence. Extra punishment just because they wear/(used to wear) the bag is just not on.
I think everybody should just cool down and see what transpires- wait for the facts to emerge which explain the situation. To be sure, there are relatively few similarities between what happened at the time of this incident and the "other incident" that occured more than 10 years ago in a foreign country. The rare similarities that do exist are hopefully not relevant.
To everyone: Many members of the QOR visit this site and are reading this thread in particular. Show some respect and some understanding- they are in shock as to what happened with their comrades and the fact that there is a temporal connection to a regimental social function. [and probably nothing more]. The QOR soldiers reading these threads may be in their own Regiment, but that regiment is a part of your army and a part of your family in arms. Get behind them and give them the support the need- they've done the same for others, and they would do it for you in a heartbeat.
To the QOR: Keep your heads up.
Cheers.
I think everybody should just cool down and see what transpires- wait for the facts to emerge which explain the situation. To be sure, there are relatively few similarities between what happened at the time of this incident and the "other incident" that occured more than 10 years ago in a foreign country. The rare similarities that do exist are hopefully not relevant.
To everyone: Many members of the QOR visit this site and are reading this thread in particular. Show some respect and some understanding- they are in shock as to what happened with their comrades and the fact that there is a temporal connection to a regimental social function. [and probably nothing more]. The QOR soldiers reading these threads may be in their own Regiment, but that regiment is a part of your army and a part of your family in arms. Get behind them and give them the support the need- they've done the same for others, and they would do it for you in a heartbeat.
To the QOR: Keep your heads up.
Cheers.
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whiskey601 said:
Eloquently put Whiskey thank you for bringing this topic back where it matters.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
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Everyone who thinks this reflects poorly on anyone other than the people directly responsible has failed to qualify as a rational human being. All such people here, in the media, and in society at large need to give their collective heads a shake.
Anyone who wants to stand up and loudly proclaim that generalization based on race, gender, age, occupation etc is an admirable way to assign blame, feel free.
Anyone who wants to stand up and loudly proclaim that generalization based on race, gender, age, occupation etc is an admirable way to assign blame, feel free.
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The"Army reservists charged in homeless man's beating death" thread has been tucked away.
The 3 men in question are now facing the legal system and we should not take any chance's on swaying that system one way or another, let the courts decide guilt or innocence.
Thank you,
Bruce
The 3 men in question are now facing the legal system and we should not take any chance's on swaying that system one way or another, let the courts decide guilt or innocence.
Thank you,
Bruce
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
GLOBE AND MAIL
DATE: 2005.09.08
PAGE: A18
EDITION: Metro
DATELINE:
WORDS: 735
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troops' party preceded man's killing in Moss Park Police defend rare delay in announcing that Paul Croutch had been beaten to death
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNNATI GANDHI About 50 people from the <Queen's> <Own> <Rifles> of Canada went out for dinner and drinks at a downtown bar on Tuesday night last week, hours before police discovered a badly beaten, unconscious homeless man near the regiment's home at Moss Park Armoury.
The reservists were playing host to a send-off for visiting troops from Germany and Britain, Major Tim Lourie said on behalf of the <Queen's> <Own> <Rifles>. Now three of the regiment's members face second-degree murder and assault charges.
"It was at a local establishment down on The Esplanade. About 50 or so members of the unit, as well as the German soldiers, went there for dinner and socializing," he said.
The Bier Markt on The Esplanade confirmed a dinner reservation for 50 people from the Canadian Armed Forces last Tuesday. The party ended at about 11 o'clock, the employee said.
"The various different groups went [in] a number of different directions. In this case, the German troops, as well as some British troops that were being hosted by 7 Toronto Regiment, were staying at the Armoury, so they would have gone back.
"But the soldiers from the Queen's Own or any of the other units wouldn't have normally gone back to the unit to stay there, they would have gone home," Major Lourie said.
He could not confirm that the three accused attended the send-off party.
At about 4:40 a.m. Wednesday, police discovered the badly bruised body of Paul Croutch, 59, in nearby Moss Park.
He was suffering what the coroner called "blunt-impact head trauma . . . consistent with being punched, kicked or stomped." Mr. Croutch was taken to hospital, where he was pronounced dead that morning.
On Friday night, Toronto Police and the National Investigation Services of the Canadian Armed Forces arrested three reserve members of the Moss Park Armoury.
Questions quickly arose about why a homicide on the streets of Toronto was not made public until early Saturday morning, nearly four days after the incident.
Detective Wayne Fowler, the lead homicide investigator on the case, said police released information after the three arrests.
"As soon as the arrests were made, the press release went out.
. . . Because this investigation was not in the media at the time -- the bad guys didn't know the police were investigating this murder." Mark Pugash, communications director for Toronto Police Services, said holding back news of a homicide on Toronto streets is very rare, but it is unavoidable in cases like this.
"There might be cases where investigators might be keeping an eye on someone and, in their view, that if this were to be publicized widely, it might compromise their ability to obtain the evidence they need." Mr. Pugash said the military involvement had nothing to do with the postponed announcement.
"The considerations that govern what we do are public safety, the integrity of the investigation. The fact that there might be some other institution involved is not a factor that would be taken into account." Captain Mark Giles, spokesman for the National Investigation Services of the Canadian Forces, said he is concerned about the severity of the incident.
"Any time you have, as we do here, three of our soldiers who are alleged to have been involved in such a serious situation, it's obviously not good news for us." Major Lourie said the arrests have taken a toll on those who are part of the reserves.
"These people work very, very hard. They're dedicated Canadians and to see this sort of thing happen and to be linked with it as being part of this organization, people are having a difficult time coming to grips with it," he said.
"This is one of our top units we have in the Brigade, and some might say in Canada. The <Queen's> <Own> <Rifles> have a long and drawn out prestigious history of supporting Canada." The Toronto Disaster Relief Committee, which has called on the Attorney-General of Ontario to prosecute the beating death of Mr.
Croutch as a hate crime, was scheduled to gather with the homeless, front-line workers and community partners this morning at the site of the killing at Queen Street East and Jarvis Street.
Jeffery Hall, 21, Mountaz Ibrahim, 23, and Brian Deganis, 21, are scheduled to appear for a remand hearing in court today at College Park.
DATE: 2005.09.08
PAGE: A18
EDITION: Metro
DATELINE:
WORDS: 735
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troops' party preceded man's killing in Moss Park Police defend rare delay in announcing that Paul Croutch had been beaten to death
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNNATI GANDHI About 50 people from the <Queen's> <Own> <Rifles> of Canada went out for dinner and drinks at a downtown bar on Tuesday night last week, hours before police discovered a badly beaten, unconscious homeless man near the regiment's home at Moss Park Armoury.
The reservists were playing host to a send-off for visiting troops from Germany and Britain, Major Tim Lourie said on behalf of the <Queen's> <Own> <Rifles>. Now three of the regiment's members face second-degree murder and assault charges.
"It was at a local establishment down on The Esplanade. About 50 or so members of the unit, as well as the German soldiers, went there for dinner and socializing," he said.
The Bier Markt on The Esplanade confirmed a dinner reservation for 50 people from the Canadian Armed Forces last Tuesday. The party ended at about 11 o'clock, the employee said.
"The various different groups went [in] a number of different directions. In this case, the German troops, as well as some British troops that were being hosted by 7 Toronto Regiment, were staying at the Armoury, so they would have gone back.
"But the soldiers from the Queen's Own or any of the other units wouldn't have normally gone back to the unit to stay there, they would have gone home," Major Lourie said.
He could not confirm that the three accused attended the send-off party.
At about 4:40 a.m. Wednesday, police discovered the badly bruised body of Paul Croutch, 59, in nearby Moss Park.
He was suffering what the coroner called "blunt-impact head trauma . . . consistent with being punched, kicked or stomped." Mr. Croutch was taken to hospital, where he was pronounced dead that morning.
On Friday night, Toronto Police and the National Investigation Services of the Canadian Armed Forces arrested three reserve members of the Moss Park Armoury.
Questions quickly arose about why a homicide on the streets of Toronto was not made public until early Saturday morning, nearly four days after the incident.
Detective Wayne Fowler, the lead homicide investigator on the case, said police released information after the three arrests.
"As soon as the arrests were made, the press release went out.
. . . Because this investigation was not in the media at the time -- the bad guys didn't know the police were investigating this murder." Mark Pugash, communications director for Toronto Police Services, said holding back news of a homicide on Toronto streets is very rare, but it is unavoidable in cases like this.
"There might be cases where investigators might be keeping an eye on someone and, in their view, that if this were to be publicized widely, it might compromise their ability to obtain the evidence they need." Mr. Pugash said the military involvement had nothing to do with the postponed announcement.
"The considerations that govern what we do are public safety, the integrity of the investigation. The fact that there might be some other institution involved is not a factor that would be taken into account." Captain Mark Giles, spokesman for the National Investigation Services of the Canadian Forces, said he is concerned about the severity of the incident.
"Any time you have, as we do here, three of our soldiers who are alleged to have been involved in such a serious situation, it's obviously not good news for us." Major Lourie said the arrests have taken a toll on those who are part of the reserves.
"These people work very, very hard. They're dedicated Canadians and to see this sort of thing happen and to be linked with it as being part of this organization, people are having a difficult time coming to grips with it," he said.
"This is one of our top units we have in the Brigade, and some might say in Canada. The <Queen's> <Own> <Rifles> have a long and drawn out prestigious history of supporting Canada." The Toronto Disaster Relief Committee, which has called on the Attorney-General of Ontario to prosecute the beating death of Mr.
Croutch as a hate crime, was scheduled to gather with the homeless, front-line workers and community partners this morning at the site of the killing at Queen Street East and Jarvis Street.
Jeffery Hall, 21, Mountaz Ibrahim, 23, and Brian Deganis, 21, are scheduled to appear for a remand hearing in court today at College Park.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
This thread is offered as a service to Army.ca members, as a convenient means to monitor media coverage of the Regent Park murder. Unfortunately, due to the tendency for overly emotional commentary, this thread will remain locked in order to avoid speculation, innuendo, rumour and misinformation.
So-called "editorial control" will rest with those media sources reporting on this story.
Looking at this from another angle, this approach is somewhat analogous to Army.ca saying "It would be inappropriate for us to comment upon a matter which is before the courts."
We ask you to please respect this difficult decision, and refrain from starting new threads, please. Thank you.
So-called "editorial control" will rest with those media sources reporting on this story.
Looking at this from another angle, this approach is somewhat analogous to Army.ca saying "It would be inappropriate for us to comment upon a matter which is before the courts."
We ask you to please respect this difficult decision, and refrain from starting new threads, please. Thank you.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
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Toronto Police Service news release, 03 Sep 05, 0003 hrs:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/8384.pdf
640 AM Radio: http://www.640toronto.com/news/metro.cfm?cat=7428109912&rem=17302&red=80110923aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=metro.cfm
CITY-TV 03 Sep 05: http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20050903-006/page.asp
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/8384.pdf
640 AM Radio: http://www.640toronto.com/news/metro.cfm?cat=7428109912&rem=17302&red=80110923aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=metro.cfm
CITY-TV 03 Sep 05: http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20050903-006/page.asp
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 410
Sep. 3, 2005. 08:35 AM
Army reservists charged in homeless man's beating death
Victim, 59, was found in park with fatal injuries
Female witness also attacked, police say
CANADIAN PRESS
WITH FILES FROM THESTAR.COM STAFF
Three members of the Canadian Armed Forces reserves are facing charges in the beating death of a homeless man in Toronto park.
Police were called to a downtown park early Wednesday where they found 59-year-old Paul Croutch unconscious and unresponsive.
Police said Friday that Croutch was taken to St. Michael's Hospital and died later that day from his injuries.
Police say an autopsy determined Croutch died from blows to the head consistent with being punched, kicked or stomped.
Police say a woman who witnessed the alleged assault suffered bruising when she was attacked.
Jeffery Hall, 21, Mountaz Ibrahim, 23, and Brian Deganis, 21, all of Toronto, are charged with second-degree murder and assault causing bodily harm.
All three are members of the Queen's Own Rifles, based at Moss Park Armoury at Queen S. E. and Jarvis St., police said.
City police and the Canadian Forces National Investigation Services were involved in the investigation.
The three men were scheduled to appear in a Toronto court Saturday.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125741951070&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&t=TS_Home
Army reservists charged in homeless man's beating death
Victim, 59, was found in park with fatal injuries
Female witness also attacked, police say
CANADIAN PRESS
WITH FILES FROM THESTAR.COM STAFF
Three members of the Canadian Armed Forces reserves are facing charges in the beating death of a homeless man in Toronto park.
Police were called to a downtown park early Wednesday where they found 59-year-old Paul Croutch unconscious and unresponsive.
Police said Friday that Croutch was taken to St. Michael's Hospital and died later that day from his injuries.
Police say an autopsy determined Croutch died from blows to the head consistent with being punched, kicked or stomped.
Police say a woman who witnessed the alleged assault suffered bruising when she was attacked.
Jeffery Hall, 21, Mountaz Ibrahim, 23, and Brian Deganis, 21, all of Toronto, are charged with second-degree murder and assault causing bodily harm.
All three are members of the Queen's Own Rifles, based at Moss Park Armoury at Queen S. E. and Jarvis St., police said.
City police and the Canadian Forces National Investigation Services were involved in the investigation.
The three men were scheduled to appear in a Toronto court Saturday.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125741951070&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&t=TS_Home
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125784210116&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
(may require online registration with Toronto Star)
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
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