Reconstitution

[Navy_Pete]

Fucking “accepted risk” is such an absurd concept. We essentially allow mid level management / commanders to decide the CAF policies don’t apply because they will it so. Risk was accepted on a section attack range, and yet the person being court martial for negligence is the Cpl, while the accepter of risk had career implications. If you want to start looking at changing CF culture there’s a good start point. - rant off

In violent agreement there; usually the person 'accepting the risk' has no skin in the game and isn't held accountable when things go sideways. Until you get a few GOFOs court martialed though...

@Halifax Tar good point, I guess that was one refresher I kept getting waived with the posting cycle and sailing sched. Not intentionally though, that's a fun one, but never was really a big deal during the DAG as long as I was up to date on the rest. I would have loved to go to the pool for that one, but hard to do if you aren't posted to the coast before cycle back to the ship into a lunatic schedule.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If we are truly in a reconstitution phase, operations shouldn't be priority, all available instructors should be pushed to the schools, rent portable class rooms if you have to for a year, and just mass train troops

The problem there is we are training “students” so just having more classrooms will just reposition the bottleneck.

We need the training aides and equipment that soldiers, sailors and air-lifeforms (don’t want to offend RCAF members who might not identify as human) need to conduct operations with (the end state with value).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Does anyone know how the evolutions were conducted in the Falklands ? Were they mass chaos or no ?

I only have second hand information from people I know who were there.

Pretty much from Day 1 on ship everyone was run through everything they needed to do on a ship in a combat zone, whether they were on a warship or a ferry under lease. This included all the action stations' stuff, firefighting, casualty management etc.

When they got to Ascension Island they spent alot of time on landing craft drills in arctic waters - even though Ascension is essentially tropical.

After they left Ascension it was 'all business' and they conducted themselves as if they could be attacked at any time.

The overall feeling I got was that it was very well handled, mainly by the Navy, and that they had the right training and equipment. The Navy was very highly regarded by the 'Brown Jobs' as a result.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No issues.

Just a point of clarity, Sea survival is competency that is kept up by doing it every couple years years when posted to a ship. Just like FF, Small Arms, CBRN ect ect.

It also includes a pool portion of climbing into a life raft.

In comparison, I think most flying communities have annual requirements for maintaining currency. We do the Sea Survival course at CFSSAR once, but follow up with annual ALSE (aviation life support equipment) briefs and refresher, plus wet and dry ditch training requirements. Not completing them will see a person grounded until they’ve been completed.

Having said that I cant imagine a real battle related survival stations being as orderly as we once practiced.

I know of one no duff situation that happened on an Aurora (prop over speed) that resulted in a no duff “prepare to ditch”; the AES Op I knew that was on it said there no real way to simulate the real thing and everything changes when the heart rate goes up and is pumping the adrenaline around. I’ve been on two airborne emergencies that involved smoke in the cockpit (kapton wiring is in the Aurora…the same wiring SwissAir 111 had) and the world changes quickly when you hear the flight deck on oxygen masks.

I can’t imagine the same/worse situation on a warship; a fire of unknown origin has many more possible origins. And you can’t just jettison weapons and fuel…I have a friend who was on the FRE air Det off Norway. Scary shit.

 

[markppcli]

In comparison, I think moat flying communities have annual requirements for maintaining currency. We do the Sea Survival course at CFSSAR once, but follow up with annual ALSE (aviation life support equipment) briefs and refresher, plus wet and dry ditch training requirements. Not completing them will see a person grounded until they’ve been completed.

since moving to a world dictated by the Air Force, the RCAF concept ofcurrency to be is the most professional thing I’ve seen in the CAF. The Army is very big on “we’ve trained you once you know it forever,” which is obviously absurd. Having to have skills assessed and practiced semi annually is so much better and ensures people actually know their job.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I’ve been blue DEU long enough now to 100% believe that qualified does not equal current, and current does not equal proficient. We are seeing crews that are observably less proficient and measurably less experienced.

I think the rest of the CAF could look at how we draw the line on when someone needs to be checked out by Standards and Training people as well as our fatigue assessment and crew rest programs. Sleep debt is a real impairment and can be related to x sleep debt = y amount of drinks worth of impairment.

All of these bits and pieces factor into our MALA - mission acceptance launch authority process.

 

[KevinB]

Fucking “accepted risk” is such an absurd concept. We essentially allow mid level management / commanders to decide the CAF policies don’t apply because they will it so. Risk was accepted on a section attack range, and yet the person being court martial for negligence is the Cpl, while the accepter of risk had career implications. If you want to start looking at changing CF culture there’s a good start point. - rant off

Going back a few decades, in prep for OP Cobra the 1 CMBG Commander and CO 1VP were on the range.

In March 1995, Cpl. Neil MacKinnon was killed at Canadian Forces Base Suffield, Alberta, during a training exercise.
Cpl. MacKinnon was preparing to throw a grenade while his fire team partner with a C9 was was "shooting him into the trench". A bullet stuck MacKinnon in the back of head and his grenade exploded, killing him.

Now key points:

None of the weapons had been zeroed before the range practice - and none had been fired live since leaving Calgary in AVGP's on the road move (which also had two accidents)
The C9 that fired the round was layer determined to be over 1m off zero - the (then young) Pte. (who I won't name as he is a personal friend), using it was a new addition to the Bn coming in from Battle School - this was his first ex with the Bn.

The OC of B Coy Maj. David Hirter, was found guilty of three count of negligence and one of unbecoming conduct. He was demoted to captain. Two enlisted men (a Sgt and a WO) assigned as safety officers for section were found not guilty of negligence. IMHO the Sgt was a total waste of rations - and the WO (Perry G) was watching the other part of the section. The fact they charged Perry was rather insidious, and left a bad tase in a lot of mouths, but not as bad as how Dave was treated.

*Three months prior I had to explain to the Sgt how to zero the C79 optic, between that and other issues, I don't think he was fit to be a Cpl in the Infantry let alone a Sgt - I won't name him, but I have zero respect for them. Personally I think he should have hung himself with his sash...

However the true disgust is that the CO of 1VP and the Commander of 1CMBG where both on the range, and aware that no live fire zero confirmation had been done, they and the worthless waste of skin of an RSM at that time, left the range after the accident and blamed everything on Dave Hirter.

 

[MilEME09]

The problem there is we are training “students” so just having more classrooms will just reposition the bottleneck.

We need the training aides and equipment that soldiers, sailors and air-lifeforms (don’t want to offend RCAF members who might not identify as human) need to conduct operations with (the end state with value).

I agree, but we gotta start somewhere, and having say two serials of ten per year for techs when you have a 200+ bag log, doesn't work

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I agree, but we gotta start somewhere, and having say two serials of ten per year for techs when you have a 200+ bag log, doesn't work

I guess I just see no change to the end state (OFP level CAF members)…so a bit of a shell game?

 

[Halifax Tar]

In comparison, I think most flying communities have annual requirements for maintaining currency. We do the Sea Survival course at CFSSAR once, but follow up with annual ALSE (aviation life support equipment) briefs and refresher, plus wet and dry ditch training requirements. Not completing them will see a person grounded until they’ve been completed.



I know of one no duff situation that happened on an Aurora (prop over speed) that resulted in a no duff “prepare to ditch”; the AES Op I knew that was on it said there no real way to simulate the real thing and everything changes when the heart rate goes up and is pumping the adrenaline around. I’ve been on two airborne emergencies that involved smoke in the cockpit (kapton wiring is in the Aurora…the same wiring SwissAir 111 had) and the world changes quickly when you hear the flight deck on oxygen masks.

I can’t imagine the same/worse situation on a warship; a fire of unknown origin has many more possible origins. And you can’t just jettison weapons and fuel…I have a friend who was on the FRE air Det off Norway. Scary shit.

I was in PRE and we were taking IRO and FRE across the pond for their Op Apollo deployments.

We stopped in the Azores on the way back, had a fire. The tugs were buttoned on fast and ready to throw us out into the ocean if we didn't soon contain it.

Believe it or not stuff happens all the time, very minor mostly. Black outs were so common on TOR when we went dark I would open my strips and wait by the office wicket because I knew some ET or Eng was gonna be asking for parts fast.

I think Sailors and Airmen have alot in common. We're all about the machines. Without them we lack purpose.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I was in PRE and we were taking IRO and FRE across the pond for their Op Apollo deployments.

We stopped in the Azores on the way back, had a fire. The tugs were buttoned on fast and ready to throw us out into the ocean if we didn't soon contain it.

Believe it or not stuff happens all the time, very minor mostly. Black outs were so common on TOR when we went dark I would open my strips and wait by the office wicket because I knew some ET or Eng was gonna be asking for parts fast.

I think Sailors and Airmen have alot in common. We're all about the machines. Without them we lack purpose.

Our search for a “cabin fire/fire of unknown origin” is wayyyyyy smaller though. We have the option of trying to make it to land/closest vessel while descending and fire fighting etc. ships don’t have that option; fight in place.

I can’t imagine a fire on a ship, honestly. My buddy on the FRE told me their view of what happened etc and thought “maybe plane fires aren’t that bad?”…

 

[Halifax Tar]

Our search for a “cabin fire/fire of unknown origin” is wayyyyyy smaller though. We have the option of trying to make it to land/closest vessel while descending and fire fighting etc. ships don’t have that option; fight in place.

I can’t imagine a fire on a ship, honestly. My buddy on the FRE told me their view of what happened etc and thought “maybe plane fires aren’t that bad?”…

I can jump off a ship...

I don't think you have that option... At least our mutual friend told me you didn't lol

FYI I'm biased... Flying scares the crap out of me, I hate it.

 

[NavalMoose]

Our search for a “cabin fire/fire of unknown origin” is wayyyyyy smaller though. We have the option of trying to make it to land/closest vessel while descending and fire fighting etc. ships don’t have that option; fight in place.

I can’t imagine a fire on a ship, honestly. My buddy on the FRE told me their view of what happened etc and thought “maybe plane fires aren’t that bad?”…

In 1986 while in the Royal Navy aboard HMS Illustrious, I was present for the forward gearbox explosion and fire at about 0030. As part of the Standing Sea Fire Party (SSFP) and in particular ventilation party, my first job was to get 2 drums of AFFF down one of the foam tubes leading to the gear room. Running...sorry...moving with a purpose down the flats to my foam tube there was already black oily smoke, not overwhelming but you knew it was there. This was the start of a very long night and there were thoughts of abandoning ship, but we put it out and limped back into harbour. The point I am trying to make and as cliche as it sounds is that we were so well trained that things were done automatically...the training really did just kick in and we thought about it later. There is no substitute for regular realistic training, it gives you confidence in your abilities and your team.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In 1986 while in the Royal Navy aboard HMS Illustrious, I was present for the forward gearbox explosion and fire at about 0030. As part of the Standing Sea Fire Party (SSFP) and in particular ventilation party, my first job was to get 2 drums of AFFF down one of the foam tubes leading to the gear room. Running...sorry...moving with a purpose down the flats to my foam tube there was already black oily smoke, not overwhelming but you knew it was there. This was the start of a very long night and there were thoughts of abandoning ship, but we put it out and limped back into harbour. The point I am trying to make and as cliche as it sounds is that we were so well trained that things were done automatically...the training really did just kick in and we thought about it later. There is no substitute for regular realistic training, it gives you confidence in your abilities and your team.

I was with 45 CDO RM at that time.

As I recall the jokes related to RN members, formerly thought to be underway for a long spell away from home port, returning unannounced after being seen off by the wives

HMS illustrious gearbox explosion and fire—3 April 1986 | Journal of The Royal Naval Medical Service

jrnms.bmj.com

 

[Jarnhamar]

Like OTs, I don't believe reservists CTing to the regular force are given any sense of priority because they're already in the system. We want new recruits, despite these guys and girls already being relatively trained and vetted.

I don't see our current reserve units being able to augment the Reg F with anything more than a section worth of soldiers. We should streamline the CT process for reservists to go reg force. Get someone into the reg force in 1-2 months for a 3-year contract.

Focus on individual and section-level skills and training with an emphasis on units being a shortcut past basic and trades training to accommodate people in school etc..

 

[NavalMoose]

I was with 45 CDO RM at that time.

As I recall the jokes related to RN members, formerly thought to be underway for a long spell away from home port, returning unannounced after being seen off by the wives

HMS illustrious gearbox explosion and fire—3 April 1986 | Journal of The Royal Naval Medical Service

jrnms.bmj.com

Yes, I believe there was even a cartoon in the local paper of a matelot returning home to find his wife in bed, not alone...lol. I was happily single at the time.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I can jump off a ship...

I don't think you have that option... At least our mutual friend told me you didn't lol

That option doesn’t include the expected kit anymore, nope. If you do it, it’s for sure a one-time thing. Lol

 

[Halifax Tar]

That option doesn’t include the expected kit anymore, nope. If you do it, it’s for sure a one-time thing. Lol

Well for you and I jumping into the North Atlantic is pretty much the end no matter what the altitude is lol

I love our sea survival times that get announced at wakey wakey. I've heard it as low as 1 to 2 minutes.

Might be best to stay onboard and ride the girl to the bottom lol. I dunno, I don't ever wanna be there.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I remember looking out starboard aft observer window one December night, 0300, stormy, cold, flying about 300' off the deck, sea state 5-6 XXX miles south of Iceland and admitting to myself "ain't gonna survive that, don't care what kit we have".

100% agreed on that "don't ever wanna be there"!

 

[Halifax Tar]

I remember looking out starboard aft observer window one December night, 0300, stormy, cold, flying about 300' off the deck, sea state 5-6 XXX miles south of Iceland and admitting to myself "ain't gonna survive that, don't care what kit we have".

100% agreed on that "don't ever wanna be there"!

What's the seas want, the seas taketh.