Questions : Explaining my criminal record to a senior officer committee

[Stein]

So a convicted criminal wants to hold a Queen's Commission.

Not only I want, but I will. It's only a matter of time. If it fails this time, it won't once I will have received a pardon...

You may have turned your life around etc, but maybe you should have thought about how your voluntary criminal career might affect your later life choices.

That's why now I know more than a lot of people about what responsibility is, for my own actions and for actions that other do because of my influence. What I've done affected my whole life, but it also affected who I am. And from the moment I have learnt from it, I'm a better, more responsible and more mature person, making myself a better person compared to what I would have been without commiting that mistake. I know what consequences a bad action can have, so I always think twice everything I do in my life. Maybe that's one of the reason that caused my career in computer science and management to be very successful.

You have a history of dishonesty, why should the Queen entrust the lives of her soldiers to you?

I don't know anybody that has been 100% honest everytime in their lives. The fact that I faced my mistakes and paid for it without trying to run away, and the fact that I have learnt from it and repaired what I did, proves that although I have made mistakes, I'm not a criminal but a one time mistaker. There's a difference between someone making a mistake once then repair it, and someone choosing the crime as a way of life... Don't you think people derserve a second chance? Not a third or fourth chance, but only a second chance...

It is one thing for a soldier to be recruited with a dubious past, but as a commissioned officer?  I would not want to serve under you, with you, or have you under my command.  How much credibility do you think you would have once knowledge of your criminal past got out?

I don't think credibility depends only on a criminal record. It's also a matter of who you are, and how you are. From the moment you are a good worker, a good leader and a good person, you can get high credibility although you have a criminal record. I have 45 employees under me, and I have a lot credibility  (and they know for my criminal record because I have many friends now among my team (and because I need a waiver to enter USA...)).. Why? Because the way I lead them. They know I am here to serve them, make sure they have everything they need to get their job done, to avoid external factors to disturb them when doing their job and do the political things they don't like to care about. They know I only have another function, not a domination role... To have a criminal record don't affect the way we work together and what we can achieve as a team.

If I would have a pardon and join in the army without anybody knowing my past, could you really see a difference? Probably not. What's the difference between me without a pardon, and me with a pardon? I'm still the same person. The only difference is that in the first case, you would never know I made mistakes. But I'm still the same person...

And what if I would have been convicted of driving drunk? Would it be different to you?

You may think I am being harsh, but that is how I see it.  It is not personal and I do wish you good luck in another career choice.

It's ok. You have your opinion and I have mine. Your not harsh, you're honest with yourself and other about what you think, wich I think is a quality.
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I for one am going to have to disagree. The whole foundation of the military justice and administrative punishment system is to allow our members a second chance to improve on their faults and become better members of the CF. That's why you don't automatically throw someone on C&P without first going through the other steps and providing counseling. If this individual has indeed pulled themselves out of whatever slump got them into trouble in the first place then power to him. Sure he may have a black mark on his record; an IC stays on your file forever but if you correct your fault in 3 to 6 months then it becomes a moot point.

You are right x80. Our system is based on the fact that someone can commit a mistake, repair it, and change the way he is to nver commit it again. It's not only about the military justice, it's about Canada. We are one of the rare country allowing a second chance. And it seems it's a good system if we look at the statistics. And you guys in the CF are working to preserve that system. And that's what I want to do : preserve the way we live and the foundation of our system. I don't know any other country in which I would have succeed to start my life in one of the poorest place in Canada, then make a stupid thing, then turn around and succeed in my personnal and profesionnal life, becoming a really good citizen.
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I know MP's with prior criminal records.

Everybody deserves a second chance!

Totally agree!
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I had no idea that officers were as pure as the driven snow.

They are not, and nobody is. If someone says he is, he just lies. There's only one man in the history that was, and unfortunatly he died 2000 years ago... But I have to admit that not everybody made a criminal offence. My mistakes were sometimes bigger that a lot of people.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/decisions_e.asp

How many of them had prior criminal records? It could be interresting to see the numbers... I don't think there's a correlation.

You might want to take a look at the number of officers whose careers have not been adversely affected by a criminal record.  It doesn't appear to have affected their credibility.

Indeed, credibility do not depend only on the criminal record. I know people without criminal record that hve absolutely no credibility. That depends mainly on how you are with others and who you are in general...

 

[bartbandyrfc]

Stein,

You appear to be a good person who made a mistake in the past.  I wish you the best of luck with your application.  I for one think that sometimes people who have made a mistake, and have learned from that mistake, often become the very best role models of trustworthiness.

However, I believe the pardon is likely the only way to expunge the past and become an officer in the Canadian Forces.  The committee will be harsh in their judgement of your character, but this stems from the responsibility they have to ensure that the soldiers of the future are led by the most upstanding people possible.

The first line of the Queen's commission says it all:

To our trusty and well beloved STEIN. Greeting!

We, reposing especial trust in your loyalty, courage, and good conduct do by these presents constitute and appoint you to be an officer in Our Canadian Armed Forces

This document continues on with beautiful and awe inspiring language, and illustrates to its subject the awesome responsibilities that he or she must bear.  A criminal record brings your character into question and the committee has no room for error.  You have an uphill battle.

Good luck to you.

BB

 

[Greymatters]

So a convicted criminal wants to hold a Queen's Commission.

I think not.  You may have turned your life around etc, but maybe you should have thought about how your voluntary criminal career might affect your later life choices.

You have a history of dishonesty, why should the Queen entrust the lives of her soldiers to you?  It is one thing for a soldier to be recruited with a dubious past, but as a commissioned officer?  I would not want to serve under you, with you, or have you under my command.  How much credibility do you think you would have once knowledge of your criminal past got out? 

You may think I am being harsh, but that is how I see it.  It is not personal and I do wish you good luck in another career choice.

That sounds a bit judgemental, not to mention contradictory.  In one line you mention how they've turned their life around and in the next you accuse them of a history of dishonesty. 

I would think an officer in the MP branch would preferably be pure as the driven snow, but lesser mortals should be allowed a bit more leniency without being regarded as 'career criminals'...   

 

[Stein]

However, I believe the pardon is likely the only way to expunge the past and become an officer in the Canadian Forces.  The committee will be harsh in their judgement of your character, but this stems from the responsibility they have to ensure that the soldiers of the future are led by the most upstanding people possible.

I wish good luck to myself too! But if it fails, due to my past mistake, I will just accept it as consequence of my own actions. I will be the only one to blame in that failure, and will have to wait more to do what I want to do. If the committee decide that I'll have to wait, I will respect their decision and be patient. I have a totally trust in them to take the right decision, no matter if it's the decision I want or not. After all, as you said, they have a great responsibility toward the army.

 

[Love793]

So a convicted criminal wants to hold a Queen's Commission.

I think not.  You may have turned your life around etc, but maybe you should have thought about how your voluntary criminal career might affect your later life choices.

You have a history of dishonesty, why should the Queen entrust the lives of her soldiers to you?  It is one thing for a soldier to be recruited with a dubious past, but as a commissioned officer?  I would not want to serve under you, with you, or have you under my command.  How much credibility do you think you would have once knowledge of your criminal past got out? 

You may think I am being harsh, but that is how I see it.  It is not personal and I do wish you good luck in another career choice.

I know law enforcement officers whom have had convictions more serious than this (not trying to down play the offence by any means), and they are taken at word in court.  The guy made a mistake, that makes him human. Now he seems to have learned from his mistakes and is striving to better himself, that makes him a better human. I do believe that's a principle of leadership. I remember reading it some where.  Yes he has a up hill battle, but I think some of the improvements he has made, may just help him out.

 

[RCDtpr]

I know law enforcement officers whom have had convictions more serious than this (not trying to down play the offence by any means), and they are taken at word in court.  The guy made a mistake, that makes him human. Now he seems to have learned from his mistakes and is striving to better himself, that makes him a better human. I do believe that's a principle of leadership. I remember reading it some where.  Yes he has a up hill battle, but I think some of the improvements he has made, may just help him out.

I'm sure there are law enforcements officers out there with convictions more serious than this.  However I don't think you will find many people getting hired with a conviction of any kind.  Getting convicted of something while already a law enforcement officer or a serving CF member is VERY different from a person trying to become a member with a conviction.....

And secondly I agree with the above posters who don't think you should be getting hired as an officer.  Like it or not officers are expected to be example setters and therefore are held to a higher standard.  I personally would not want to follow someone who not only committed a theft, but premeditated the crime as well.  Being convicted of a heat of the moment crime.....ok you made a quick stupid decision, it happens.  But to premeditated a crime? Inexcusable for this line of work, simple as that.  I for one hope you aren't accepted as an officer in the CF.

 

[Stein]

etting convicted of something while already a law enforcement officer or a serving CF member is VERY different from a person trying to become a member with a conviction.....

Which one do you think is worst? The one that made a mistake before and got in the army, or someone making a mistake after he sworn that he will an example setter?

And secondly I agree with the above posters who don't think you should be getting hired as an officer.  Like it or not officers are expected to be example setters and therefore are held to a higher standard.

Making a mistake don't prevent someone to become, after that mistake, an example setter and reach even higher standards... Don't you think?

I personally would not want to follow someone who not only committed a theft, but premeditated the crime as well.  Being convicted of a heat of the moment crime.....ok you made a quick stupid decision, it happens.  But to premeditated a crime? Inexcusable for this line of work, simple as that.

So you would prefer to follow someone that make actions without thinking of before?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I for one wish you the best of luck in becoming an officer Stein. Hopefully down the road if one of your subordinates gets into trouble with the law you would use your experience to assist them in their legal needs.

 

[Stein]

I for one wish you the best of luck in becoming an officer Stein. Hopefully down the road if one of your subordinates gets into trouble with the law you would use your experience to assist them in their legal needs.

In Canada, there's actually more than 3,3 million people having a criminal record. On that 3,3 millions, there's a man/woman proportion of 98/2. So, about 20% of male canadians had or have a criminal record during their lives. It's a lot and that's why our system is based on the "second chance" principle. We are convicting more than anywhere else in the world, but we recognize the right to have a second chance. http://www.asrsq.ca/Fr/Bulletin/Bul_Anc_Fre.htm (sorry it's in french, but I'm pretty sure you can find the stats in english somewhere ...)

So as you said, if someone I know has trouble with the law, which has almost 100% chances to happen if I know more than 5 people, I would use my experience to help him. Not help him to run away from his responsibilities, but help him to face it.

 

[RCDtpr]

In your question of which one do I think is worse...getting a record while in the CF or getting one before you get in I don't think either is better.  They are both bad.  HOWEVER if you have one before you get in luckily the CF has the right to tell you to take a walk.  Becoming a soldier, especially an officer, is not a right it's a priviledge.  YOU in my opinion, should lose that priviledge as soon as you committed a crime.  I don't care what you've done since it happened and I don't care that you've tried to better yourself.

If I found out my Lt. had a criminal record for theft I would never look at him in the same light.  I would always be wondering if he is going to steal my stuff when I'm not around.  How can I trust you to lead me into combat and get me out alive if I can't even trust you to be around my belongings when I'm not?

And in my opinion your little statistic regarding criminal records is nonsense.  It also takes into account YOUTH records which lots of people have.  However you have an adult record which I can tell you, most Canadians don't have.  It also doesn't tell you the circumstances regarding someones "criminal" record.  I know of a fellow soldier who obtained a record after being convicted of assault.  Why was he convicted of assault?  He was backing up a buddy in a bar fight who got jumped.  He has a criminal record, but in my opinion it's a justified record, and I have no problems working with him. 

That being said, I would not want to work with a common thief which is what you are/were.  Simple as that.  And please don't think this is meant to be a personal attack......it's not.  I'm simply voicing my opinion on why I hope this board turns you down and tell you never to apply to the CF again.

 

[Stein]

should lose that priviledge as soon as you committed a crime.  I don't care what you've done since it happened and I don't care that you've tried to better yourself.

AND

I would always be wondering if he is going to steal my stuff when I'm not around.  How can I trust you to lead me into combat and get me out alive if I can't even trust you to be around my belongings when I'm not?

AND

It also doesn't tell you the circumstances regarding someones "criminal" record.

AND

I know of a fellow soldier who obtained a record after being convicted of assault.  Why was he convicted of assault?  He was backing up a buddy in a bar fight who got jumped.  He has a criminal record, but in my opinion it's a justified record, and I have no problems working with him.

So one hand you say that we should not judge without knowing the circumstances, and the hand you judge me without knowing the circumstances. Nevertheless, you first say that all crimes are bad, but you make a distinction between good crimes (you friend) and bad crimes (all the other). By making such a distinction, you say that steeling something is worst than fighting with someone in a bar, "to help a buddy who got into troubles" and taking the risk of hurting innocent people, instead of trying to calm down the situation and/or preventing it to happen? My opinion is that both are bad actions.

And, your stuff wouldn't be at risk with me. I am always following the rules and laws now, probably more than most people. It's caused by the fact that I know what the consequences are and I really don't want to face it again. And, I don't think there's a correlation between having stolen something and the capacity to lead or to have honour and courage. There's a lot of examples in history that proves that someone with a criminal record can become a really good person...

If someone has faced his past actions, without trying to run away from the consequences, isn't that person showing that he has the sense of what responsibility is? If someone never had to face the consequences of his own actions, how do you know that person wouldn't run away from ihis responsibilities? If someone has faced his responsibilities and learnt from his past actions, don't it make that person more better than what he would have became without his mistakes?

And in my opinion your little statistic regarding criminal records is nonsense.

Facts are sometimes nonsense... but these are not my statistics, these are Canada's Minister of Justice statistics and do not include youth records.

That being said, I would not want to work with a common thief which is what you are/were.  Simple as that.  And please don't think this is meant to be a personal attack......it's not.  I'm simply voicing my opinion on why I hope this board turns you down and tell you never to apply to the CF again.

That's your opinion and I respect it.

 

[RCDtpr]

Please go ahead and show me where I said some crimes are good and some are bad.  I said that some crimes might be jusitifiable, such as the example I gave.  From what you've said your crime wasn't justifiable.  But alas, this is turning into a pissing contest.  I've made my opinion heard, you've made your opinion heard.  So I guess now all we can do is sit and wait until you have your board meeting.

 

[AlphaQup]

I had no idea that officers were as pure as the driven snow.   :

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/decisions_e.asp

You might want to take a look at the number of officers whose careers have not been adversely affected by a criminal record.  It doesn't appear to have affected their credibility.

Cool link. Any reason why an officer cadet would be on that sight though?
R. v. Officer Cadet S.R.M. Warren, 2008 CM 2005

Presiding - Military Judge P.J. Lamont, Cdr

 

[Stein]

Please go ahead and show me where I said some crimes are good and some are bad.  I said that some crimes might be jusitifiable, such as the example I gave.  From what you've said your crime wasn't justifiable.

but in my opinion it's a justified record

I don't think any crime can be justifiable. But, that's only my opinion. If you consider it to be justifiable, don't you think he has done the right thing? Or do you still consider he has done a bad thing?

So I guess now all we can do is sit and wait until you have your board meeting.

Absolutely, that's the only thing we can do. Thanks for your opinion though. I know that it won't be easy to get the trust of some people if I succed to join in and someone then know about my past actions. The easiest thing to do would be to wait for a pardon so nobody would know about my past actions. But I am not the kind of people that automatically choose the easy way... still believe it can work and if the information get out oneday, it is the right of people to question me on it and it will my duty to be honest with them. But I always succeeded so far to get the trust of people I was working with, despite my criminal record. It's always possible to get someone's trust, it's just that sometimes it's harder to do.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I'm sure there are law enforcements officers out there with convictions more serious than this.  However I don't think you will find many people getting hired with a conviction of any kind.  Getting convicted of something while already a law enforcement officer or a serving CF member is VERY different from a person trying to become a member with a conviction.....

You are so far out of your lane you should be in the car with Steve Martin and John Candy........

And secondly I agree with the above posters who don't think you should be getting hired as an officer.  Like it or not officers are expected to be example setters and therefore are held to a higher standard.  I personally would not want to follow someone who not only committed a theft, but premeditated the crime as well.  Being convicted of a heat of the moment crime.....ok you made a quick stupid decision, it happens.  But to premeditated a crime? Inexcusable for this line of work, simple as that.  I for one hope you aren't accepted as an officer in the CF.

More kife........................Gee, I hope I don't have to give back my 10 years in the Service and my 19 in Corrections because 30 years ago I needed to learn something the hard way.
Give me a friggin' break.


Stein....................you have already done something lots of people never accomplish.............reaching down, grabbing yourself by the nuts and saying "I don't want to be a dirtbag anymore".   Good luck.
Bruce

 

[Stein]

Cool link. Any reason why an officer cadet would be on that sight though?
R. v. Officer Cadet S.R.M. Warren, 2008 CM 2005

Presiding - Military Judge P.J. Lamont, Cdr

He got caught taking drugs.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/sentence/2008/2008cm1014.f.pdf

 

[Stein]

Good luck.

Thanks!

 

[CountDC]

wholly crap!!!

Guess we better go back through the books and take away some commisions and ranks from all those past criminals now in the military. Glad I already qualify for pension with my 23+ years - hopefully they won't be able to take that away from me just because of my past.

Stein you have my vote of support - based on the info you have provided here hopefully I will have the priviledge of working with you in the future along with some of these nay sayers and we can drive them crazy talking about our wonderful past. ;D

Justified crime makes me think of all those speeders, reckless drivers, drug users, drunk drivers, etc that always say you think the cops would have something better to do like catch real criminals - my response is you are a real criminal as you broke the law and if not for people like you the police would have more time available to deal with the other criminals. Can't help but wonder how many of the negative posters here have never broken the law and how many of them are still breaking the law to this day.

 

[tabernac]

He got caught taking drugs.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/sentence/2008/2008cm1014.f.pdf

Not quite. You have the wrong link. http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/sentence/2008/2008cm2005.pdf

Officer Cadet Warren, having accepted and recorded your pleas of guilty
to charge No. 1, a charge of assault causing bodily harm, and charge No. 3, a charge of
drunkenness, this court now finds you guilty of charges No. 1 and 3.

 

[Stein]

Not quite. You have the wrong link. http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/sentence/2008/2008cm2005.pdf

Sorry, my bad!