Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread

[Mudshuvel]

Hey all,

I'm in need for a PLQ Theory Lesson Plan format, up to date and current. We don't have access to any on the Q-Drive and its required ASAP. If anyone can help, could you should be an PM?

Cheers

Mud

 

[MikeL]

I'll have a look and see if I have one still,  but your course staff should be giving you this stuff.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Something I've been thinking about the last couple of days which I thought could be passed on here to up and coming leaders.

A week ago I heard about some instructors on a reserve BMQ making recruits  do push ups with MOB boxes on their backs. I couldn't believe that kind of stupidity still happens.

Then a couple days ago I heard a pretty sad story. While waiting for my brakes to be finished I started chatting with one of the employees there who recognized my jacket as a military one.  He had friends who served in Afghanistan, knew civilians who went there for work, told me I was an idiot for throwing out my Tim Hortons cadpat hat cause they're limited editions. He helped put some care packages together for people overseas. Really great guy who loves the military and supports us 200%. It was like talking to one of the boys from the mess.

Come to find out his story. He was a was a young navy officer who partied a bit too much for the early 90's. He ended up getting out because he didn't fit in very well being an officer. He missed the CF so much that he rejoined as an NCM a couple of years later.  He had to do his basic over again and was flying through. Planned on a career in the CF.    Week 7 of 8 they were being punished and doing triple time drill with weapons and rucksacks. The guy said he knew they shouldn't be doing it but kept his mouth shut. One instructor came in saw it and made a comment about how it was dangerous and they shouldn't be doing it. The other instructor argued  and the first one left saying "well just make sure no one gets hurt".  On a right turn this guy tore something in his back and that was it. End ex for his military career.

On his way out of the CF the medical system managed to punt him without a pension saying it was a pre-existing injury. He didn't explain what exactly he was doing on PT to hurt himself.  He told me not a day goes by that he doesn't wake up and wish he was still in the CF and just listening to him talk I could feel how much he meant it.  I asked him why he didn't tell the doctors that he was hurt doing stupid PT and it was the instructors fault and he said they were really good instructors and he didn't want to ruin their careers over him.


When I heard this story it made me immediately think of what I heard a few days prior- the instructor making recruits do MOB box push-ups. There were 3 failures of leadership I seen in this guys story.  The instructor making recruits do triple time drill with rifles and rucksacks. The instructor who seen it, recognized it as being wrong and failed to put a stop to it and finally this guy who having had previous leadership training as an officer just went along with it because he didn't want to cause shit.

This guys who life was drastically changed (including the CF loosing someone who seems like a pretty cool guy) because of stupid PT when the instructors obviously knew better.

As a leader you might be put in a position where you need to go against the grain and stand out by stopping something that seems relatively harmless but something as "small" as a PT session done incorrectly can ruin someones whole career in a few seconds. Someone lives the rest of their life in pain and the CF looses a soldier.

 

[63 Delta]

Great post with some great points! I remember being in basic in St Jean 5 years ago. My basic platoon was on the obstacle course, and the barb wire entanglement was full of ice and snow. Because of this, the MCpl decided to have us run right next to the entanglements. The problem was, the ground was extremely slick with mud, and the entanglement were built with 6 foot pickets sunk into the ground about 5 feet. Essentially the picket was a spike pointing up out of the ground. If anyone would have slipped and fallen, it would have easily impaled them. I pointed this out to the MCpl, and he brushed me off, telling me that one day we would do this with machine guns firing over top of the entanglement. Five years in, still haven't done that.

As well, during DP1, the course before me was required to run up and down the stairs fire man carrying course mates with their gas masks on. I don't see how that is constructive at all. They were extremely lucky no one was injured; I can only imagine the career implications if for you if someone was injured, and you were found to be in charge.

Anyways, all were great lessons in what not to do as a leader. There are many better ways to push your followers to their limits, without endangering them or exposing them to injuries.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The 'guys story', I hate to say, sounds a bit too far fetched for me. 

As for the MOB pushups, I've done chain/Airborne pushups before, pushups on my helmet, even PT with a section of telephone pole before; all approved PT by the CofC.  Even ran 1 or 2 miles (can't remember how far it was), from "somewhere between Granville and Cornwallis" to the Obstacle Crse in FFO and gas mask on, again approved PT that everyone did.

The last line I agree with, having witnessed something to that effect before, and been one of the Staff that brought it up to the CofC.  IMO, it is usually a young Crse Officer or newly minted MCpl that doesn't think thinks thru.

However, any unsantioned/off the books PT was, before I left the Trg System world,  taboo and anyone caught doing it would be dealt with swiftly. 

I have personal knowledge of a few ex-mbr's who were just dickheads with a little bit of rank as well WRT not knowing where the line between PT and STUPID is.  Good part of the reason they are ex-mbr's.

:2c:

 

[Jarnhamar]

The 'guys story', I hate to say, sounds a bit too far fetched for me. 

naw man, he sounded very legit and I'm damn awesome at catching people in tall tales.  Besides, I'm sure you, like myself, have seem some very crazy and stupid things in our time in the CF. Stuff that easily out does this. Off the top of my head a section commander in bosnia forcing a cpl to walk infront of an iltis to "prove" the ground off of the pavement with a radio thrown on his back for added weight.
:

As for the MOB pushups, I've done chain/Airborne pushups before, pushups on my helmet, even PT with a section of telephone pole before; all approved PT by the CofC.  Even ran 1 or 2 miles (can't remember how far it was), from "somewhere between Granville and Cornwallis" to the Obstacle Crse in FFO and gas mask on, again approved PT that everyone did.

Are you telling me that triple time drill with rucksacks is an approved form of punishment / corrective PT or it's acceptable to have recruits doing push ups with those giant MOB boxes on their backs?
That's an honest question, I was under the impression the answer to both those questions were no.
I'm leary sometimes of the justification that "the chain of command approved it". In my example above of the cpl in Bosnia- his "chain of command" approved him walking through a field.

The last line I agree with, having witnessed something to that effect before, and been one of the Staff that brought it up to the CofC.  IMO, it is usually a young Crse Officer or newly minted MCpl that doesn't think thinks thru.

Young officers from RMC do tend to a bit over eager and gung hoe with PT but I think the fitness training/classes they do is still way more in depth and comprehensive than what a young cpl will learn on PLQ. The 1 day fitness plq mod is only mandatory for the regular force unless it's changed. You may have a 19 year old master corporal "leading" 30 or 40 students in PT.

 

[john. M]

naw man, he sounded very legit and I'm damn awesome at catching people in tall tales.  Besides, I'm sure you, like myself, have seem some very crazy and stupid things in our time in the CF. Stuff that easily out does this. Off the top of my head a section commander in bosnia forcing a cpl to walk infront of an iltis to "prove" the ground off of the pavement with a radio thrown on his back for added weight.
:
Are you telling me that triple time drill with rucksacks is an approved form of punishment / corrective PT or it's acceptable to have recruits doing push ups with those giant MOB boxes on their backs?
That's an honest question, I was under the impression the answer to both those questions were no.
I'm leary sometimes of the justification that "the chain of command approved it". In my example above of the cpl in Bosnia- his "chain of command" approved him walking through a field.
Young officers from RMC do tend to a bit over eager and gung hoe with PT but I think the fitness training/classes they do is still way more in depth and comprehensive than what a young cpl will learn on PLQ. The 1 day fitness plq mod is only mandatory for the regular force unless it's changed. You may have a 19 year old master corporal "leading" 30 or 40 students in PT.

When I did PLQ last year, we reservist did do 1 day PT mod.  Plus there is no reserve run PLQ anymore correct me if im wrong.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

When I did PLQ last year, we reservist did do 1 day PT mod.  Plus there is no reserve run PLQ anymore correct me if im wrong.

All of these courses should now be a REG/PRES mix.....

 

[Eye In The Sky]

naw man, he sounded very legit and I'm damn awesome at catching people in tall tales.  Besides, I'm sure you, like myself, have seem some very crazy and stupid things in our time in the CF. Stuff that easily out does this. Off the top of my head a section commander in bosnia forcing a cpl to walk infront of an iltis to "prove" the ground off of the pavement with a radio thrown on his back for added weight.

Someone sounding legit to me would have to be confirmed with something more substantive.

I have seen or know of things that happened that shouldn't have, sure.  I just don't see the benefit to posting them or the details on a public forum.  People messed up/made bad decisions, if required the CofC was informed and it was dealt with.

I have also been around the CF long enough to know you don't believe every story you hear.  Examples are too numerous to name.

:
Are you telling me that triple time drill with rucksacks is an approved form of punishment / corrective PT

No I am saying that is part of the story I don't actually believe.  I've never HEARD of triple time drill before.  Rucksack drill, as a punishment, went out the windows YEARS ago IIRC.  I think the last time I heard of it was early '90s in Gagetown.  I know I've read the RSM Defaulters Instructions before, and it explicitedly stated what was to happen/not to happen, and that stuff fell in the latter list.  Thats not all that long ago, circa 2000 when I was Duty Sgt and had defaulters.

or it's acceptable to have recruits doing push ups with those giant MOB boxes on their backs?

How much does the MOB weigh?  As I said, I've done stuff like situps with 3-4 other candidates with asection of telephone pole and it was part of actual PT.  I am not saying it IS a sanctioned PT thing.  I am saying if it was it wouldn't strike me as "too much".  I go to the gym and lift weights before work, so lifting a MOB is no different to me than doing bench press.  I do it for fitness and strength trg, on my own.  If some 170lb teenager can't do a pushup with 50lbs on his back...wow.

More of concern, if it is happening, and its not part of an approved PT session/plan, the CofC should be info'd about it. 

Did you witness it?  Are you sure, beyond a doubt, it happened?  Then tell your CofC.  Its the only way to ensure it stops, and that the mbr doing it is given proper instruction so as to change his/her ways.  If people are coloring outside the lines, talking about it here will not stop it from happening and start the proper corrective action the CofC would take to remedy the problem.

I won't speculate if it did/didn't happen, I just know if it is, it should be pushed up the CofC for many reasons, and if it didn't happen, anyonoe and their dog reading this thread could get the wrong impression.  How many reporters frequent this site?

I'm leary sometimes of the justification that "the chain of command approved it".

  I can assure you, things like extra PT, extra drill, extra inspection, etc have been requested for an ACTUAL trg requirement, and approved by the CofC before, on more than one course I've taught on.  They key to it is requesting it, and only doing what is approved by the CofC.  If they answer "remedial inspection from 1900-2000hrs, you'd better be done and off that floor by 2000.

In my example above of the cpl in Bosnia- his "chain of command" approved him walking through a field.

I'll refer to my comment earlier about being around long enough to not believe everything I hear. 

Young officers from RMC do tend to a bit over eager and gung hoe with PT but I think the fitness training/classes they do is still way more in depth and comprehensive than what a young cpl will learn on PLQ. The 1 day fitness plq mod is only mandatory for the regular force unless it's changed. You may have a 19 year old master corporal "leading" 30 or 40 students in PT.

I'll suggest a 19 year old MCpl leading 30/40 recruits is the exception, not the rule.  IF a 19 year old MCpl is inexperienced and on the power trip, then sorting that out and properly developing the habits and attitude towards proper trg techniques is, IMO, a leadership function.  He/she needs to be mentored by a strong Sgt/WO.  So, if there is a 19 year old MCpl leading PT unsupervised, that is a leadership issue. 

Also, FWIW, almost every course I've been staff on, including BMQ at CFLRS, the Crse O lead morning PT, not the youngest MCpl available in NATO.

Experience is experience, and a Cpl with atleast 4 years in the Reg Force has seen how to do things by his/her MCpl, Sgt etc, like conduct a PT session, the same as a RMC student will see more senior people lead PT when they are going thru their system.  The danger lies in the ones who want, so badly, to be 'in the hot seat'; you know the type, frothing at the mouth to be able to "lead people", that when they do get to be staff, they are too busy bathing in their own awesomeness to remember their jobs as leaders. 

One of my favorite RSMs I ever served under, a guy who started in the Black Watch when it was still in the Reg Frce ORBAT, once said something along the line of:

"You gotta stop and ask yourself sometimes, in the middle of it all, is this trg serving any purpose to make my troops better, and if not, why the hell are we doing it then". 

 

[chrisf]

I'll suggest a 19 year old MCpl leading 30/40 recruits is the exception, not the rule.  IF a 19 year old MCpl is inexperienced and on the power trip, then sorting that out and properly developing the habits and attitude towards proper trg techniques is, IMO, a leadership function.  He/she needs to be mentored by a strong Sgt/WO.  So, if there is a 19 year old MCpl leading PT unsupervised, that is a leadership issue. 

At least as far as mo'litia courses are concerned, it ends up the norm, not the exception... it's just the result of high turn-over in units, and the resulting leadership, particularly at the lower ranks, being very junior as a result.

Some do well regardless, some don't, all would benefit from mentoring...

Older/more experienced troops tend to have jobs and families, with limited availability as a result...

My better half very recently finished up a reserve weekend course. With the exception of the course warrant (who, as with any of the instructors, was only available part-time) the most senior instructor was a mcpl with two years experience...

"You gotta stop and ask yourself sometimes, in the middle of it all, is this trg serving any purpose to make my troops better, and if not, why the hell are we doing it then".

That should be cast in brass and nailed a a lot of walls...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I spent 17 years in the Res, worked as an Instr right from the Jnr Cpl instr to Crse WO and A/Crse O on home unit/LFA TC courses, so I know the realities, and limitations the Res world faced/faces.

It didn't, and doesn't, change the realities of what is or isn't leadership responsibilities, IMO. 

:2c:

 

[chrisf]

It didn't, and doesn't, change the realities of what is or isn't leadership responsibilities, IMO. 

You're absolutely right, but it still remains the norm, not an exception... doesn't mean that norm is acceptable though...

 

[Jarnhamar]

When I did PLQ last year, we reservist did do 1 day PT mod.  Plus there is no reserve run PLQ anymore correct me if im wrong.

Right right.  The PT mod is a day long. Reservists do not need the PT mod to be promoted to MCpl but I believe reg force members do require it.

Someone sounding legit to me would have to be confirmed with something more substantive.

I'll concede that this fellows story could be inaccurate. Maybe his triple time drill was really just double time drill that seemed really fast to him.
Maybe there is more or less to the story than he briefly explained.
Regardless of the accuracy of this guys specific story I think we all agree that someones career/life can be negatively changed in a moment thanks to someone turning a blind eye to a dangerous action.

Examples are too numerous to name.

Exactly.

Rucksack drill, as a punishment, went out the windows YEARS ago IIRC.  I think the last time I heard of it was early '90s in Gagetown.

I've seen it as recently as 2005

How much does the MOB weigh?  As I said, I've done stuff like situps with 3-4 other candidates with asection of telephone pole and it was part of actual PT.  I am not saying it IS a sanctioned PT thing.  I am saying if it was it wouldn't strike me as "too much".  I go to the gym and lift weights before work, so lifting a MOB is no different to me than doing bench press.  I do it for fitness and strength trg, on my own.  If some 170lb teenager can't do a pushup with 50lbs on his back...wow.

You and I may have no problem doing it.  What about a 102 pound 5'0  female recruit, would her trying to do a push up with a 50 pound cumbersome plastic barracks box on her back be dangerous?  She crumbles smashes her face develops a back injury and shes out of the CF.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.  Personally "mob box push ups" just seems dangerous to me.

Also, FWIW, almost every course I've been staff on, including BMQ at CFLRS, the Crse O lead morning PT, not the youngest MCpl available in NATO.

Agreed, it's the times with manning shortages and what do find inexperienced members leading their own style of PT that's the issue.

Experience is experience, and a Cpl with atleast 4 years in the Reg Force has seen how to do things by his/her MCpl, Sgt etc, like conduct a PT session, the same as a RMC student will see more senior people lead PT when they are going thru their system.  The danger lies in the ones who want, so badly, to be 'in the hot seat'; you know the type, frothing at the mouth to be able to "lead people", that when they do get to be staff, they are too busy bathing in their own awesomeness to remember their jobs as leaders. 

For sure.

 

[chrisf]

Right right.  The PT mod is a day long. Reservists do not need the PT mod to be promoted to MCpl but I believe reg force members do require it.

Absolutely they do, unless somthing has changed recently.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Right right.  The PT mod is a day long. Reservists do not need the PT mod to be promoted to MCpl but I believe reg force members do require it.

For the in-house courses we run MOD 1 (PT)  is manditory.....

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looks like it's changed recently. That's good news.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You and I may have no problem doing it.  What about a 102 pound 5'0  female recruit, would her trying to do a push up with a 50 pound cumbersome plastic barracks box on her back be dangerous?  She crumbles smashes her face develops a back injury and shes out of the CF.

I don't want to get into the "there should be one standard" argument, its circular and has been  :deadhorse: so I'll just leave that one at that.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.  Personally "mob box push ups" just seems dangerous to me.

As they very likely are, but I like to focus on the point of IF it is happening, it needs to be addressed to those who have the power to cease the activity, correct the Instr, etc. 

Agreed, it's the times with manning shortages and what do find inexperienced members leading their own style of PT that's the issue.

I see that as a Leadership issue.  If the Crse O/Crse WO provide direction on "what/when/how/who", there should be no problem.  If there is a problem, it also suggests the instr NOT following the direction is not following orders.  That can be dealt with as well.

 

[a_majoor]

PLQ Mods 1-3 include the PT portion for both the Regular Force and Reserve candidates. This can get slightly silly as I have seen Reservists who are qualified civvy fitness instructors/trainers in their "real life" jobs being herded into the fitness center along with everyone else (and in the back of my mind I wondered what CSOR candidates thought of the PT experience compared to what they do back in their unit).

I am a big proponent of the "one standard" model, since a C-6 GPMG weighs 11 KG regardless of who is carrying it. Until someone can make local exceptions to the laws of physics, that's just the way it will be.

I am a bit stunned to hear of people doing "barracks box" pushups with the barracks box on their backs. Not only is it dangerous and stupid, it is also implausible. Did they perhaps mean the candidates were doing pushups with their feet elevated by being up on the barracks box so more body weight rests on the arms? That is plausible and also sanctioned (putting the feet up on benches and so on is the more common way to do this, but a MOABB will do in a pinch).

Leaders are responsible for the care of their troops as well as the readiness to carry out tasks. Perhaps if their mentors teach junior leaders to treat the men like high quality tools rather than disposable widgits we will see attitudes change for the better.

 

[HeavyHooker]

Just got a date for the PLQ Residential.  I know what the PLQ is obviously but the residential portion of that title is a bit confusing. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

HH

 

[dangerboy]

Just got a date for the PLQ Residential.  I know what the PLQ is obviously but the residential portion of that title is a bit confusing. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

HH

Depending on what mods you have the residency usually covers the fol: Some lectures on leadership (PO 201), Instruct personel (Skill, Knowledge and Drill. PO 202), Conduct a conventional range (you act as an ARSO, Butts NCO, Ammo NCO. PO 210) and conduct Physical Fitness training (PO 203).