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Pilot life after CF

Inch said:
On the transfer question, have a read of part 4 of the CARS, under every licence there is a "Credit for DND Applicants" section detailing what a miltary pilot must do to get the licence. As Loachman said, hours are hours, doesn't matter where you get them as far as Transport Canada is concerned.

Actually, the issue is with getting credit for type ratings (421.20 in the CARS) ... hours are hours, and total hours are the same for the actual licenses but DND time is credited differently for type ratings (and for all I know probably some other things, too).
 
I_am_John_Galt_(again) said:
Actually, the issue is with getting credit for type ratings (421.20 in the CARS) ... hours are hours, and total hours are the same for the actual licenses but DND time is credited differently for type ratings (and for all I know probably some other things, too).

421.20 is for a Pilot Permit on Gyroplanes. Pilot permits are considerably different than Pilot Licences. Specifically, Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Helicopters), or ATPLH for short. 421.35 details the requirements for ATPLH. We meet the skill requirement, experience requirement is usually the same for all licences, you must meet the hours as laid out, and we must write the HAMRA and HARON as does everyone who wants an ATPLH.

To get helo type ratings (CARs 421.40 para 3f), all we have to have done is a Pilot Proficiency Check in the previous 12 months, since we do them annually, it's no big deal for me to get an S61 type rating on an ATPLH once I meet the hour requirements and successfully write the HAMRA and HARON.
 
Sorry, 421.40 (typo) ... I'm not saying that it is necessarily difficult to qualify for civvy equivalent ratings, just that they are different and T'port Canada has to review the applicant's DND hours and confirm that they meet the civvy standard (they employ people to do just this specifically).
 
They do that fot civies applying for licenses too.  You have to send them a proof of hours and if they feel like it they will call the operators and request if the flights were really done (looking at the airplane's logbook)

Max
 
Another reason operators like the military pilots is that most retire from the military qualified as an aircraft captain on type.  Civvies tend to build up the hours (1500+ and sometimes much higher) before even considering an upgrade.  Reasons are varied.  More responsibility such as losing your own rating if your cojo fails the IRT in the SIM is an example.  Also, after working with a certain operator for several years as a cojo, there is not much of an incentive to upgrade.

Of course, we don't do much long-lining like the civvie operators. ;D
 
I_am_John_Galt_(again) said:
Sorry, 421.40 (typo) ... I'm not saying that it is necessarily difficult to qualify for civvy equivalent ratings, just that they are different and T'port Canada has to review the applicant's DND hours and confirm that they meet the civvy standard (they employ people to do just this specifically).

That's no different than a civvie requesting a type rating. It's actually easier than you think. I know many people that have ATPLH licences but have very little solo flight time since all operational helos are two pilot (except the Kiowa guys back in the day). I only have about 10 hrs solo flight time in helos and that's all I'll ever get unless I get posted to helo school to fly Jet Rangers.

When I get the hour requirements and just before I do the Cyclone conversion course, I'll get my ATPLH with S61 rating. As soon as I've got a category on the Cyclone, I'll get an S92 type rating.
 
Inch said:
That's no different than a civvie requesting a type rating.
Yes I know that, but the requirements are different (which is what I was trying to convey in response to the original question).
 
I_am_John_Galt_(again) said:
Yes I know that, but the requirements are different (which is what I was trying to convey in response to the original question).

What requirements?
 
Inch said:
What requirements?
For type ratings.

e.g.
(iii) Skill

Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the rating, an applicant shall have successfully completed a qualifying flight under the supervision of a Transport Canada Inspector or a qualified person qualified in accordance with CAR 425.21(7)(a).

and

(iii) Skill

An applicant shall have passed a pilot proficiency check conducted in accordance with Part VII for that helicopter type within the 12 months preceding the application for the rating or passed a pilot proficiency check acceptable to the Minister for that helicopter type within 12 months preceding the application for the rating.
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(etc. ... the civilian requirements)

are not the same as

(4) Credits for DND Applicants

(a) Active and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are qualified to wings standard shall be deemed to have met the qualifying flight requirement specified in 3(c)(iii), 3(g)(iii), 3(k)(ii), and 3(l) above provided the applicant:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating, or
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) has qualified as pilot-in-command on the aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(b) Active and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are qualified to wings standard shall be deemed to have met the Pilot Proficiency Check requirement specified in 3(a)(iii), 3(b)(iii), 3(f)(iii),and 3(g)(ii) above provided the applicant:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating, or
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) has qualified as pilot-in-command on the aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
(military requirement)
 
I see that, you're just pointing out that they're different?

Since we all upgrade to Aircraft Captain and requal every year, it seems to me that it's easier for a DND applicant to get the type rating.
 
As it turns-out, yes.  I didn't know exactly what the difference was, only that they were different, so I originally told the poster to check with T'port Canada (no one had responded to his question at that point).  You took the time to refer him to the CARs, so I checked them myself to make sure we were all on the same page (CPL & ATPL where it is really just a matter of number of hours, irrespective of source vs. type ratings where the requirement for military hours is somewhat different* (unless I am missing something)).

*Which you pointed-out that an active duty pilot should have no problem meeting ... thus, as it turns-out, for practical purposes the difference is not that great.  ::)
 
ATPL's aside.

Transport Canada regulations are very clear on equivalent licenses/ratings.  As a multi-engine pilot with an unrestricted IRT, all I must do is write the PSTAR and score 80% on the test and I will receive my PPL.  If I wish to go further, I must write my CSTAR and again score 80% and then I would receive my Commercial, Multi-engine, IFR rating.

I could do this tomorrow with or without any PIC on type and gain such licenses.

I trust this answers the original posters question.
 
Zoomie said:
ATPL's aside.

Transport Canada regulations are very clear on equivalent licenses/ratings.  As a multi-engine pilot with an unrestricted IRT, all I must do is write the PSTAR and score 80% on the test and I will receive my PPL.  If I wish to go further, I must write my CSTAR and again score 80% and then I would receive my Commercial, Multi-engine, IFR rating.

I could do this tomorrow with or without any PIC on type and gain such licenses.

I trust this answers the original posters question.


I have a Commercial Aeroplane licence and I gotta say, as far as written tests go, I've never heard of a CSTAR. PSTAR is a test to get a student pilot permit, PPAER is the written test to get a PPL. To get a CPL, you write the CPAER. For DND credit towards a CPL, you need to write the "Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures (ARPCO)", or the HARPC for a CPL-H.

You do need PIC time to get a multi rating, 50 hrs on type. For the instrument rating, you only need a valid, unrestricted IRT. Just got my unrestricted today.  ;D
 
Inch said:
You do need PIC time to get a multi rating, 50 hrs on type. For the instrument rating, you only need a valid, unrestricted IRT. Just got my unrestricted today.  ;D

Inch, if I'm reading what you typed correctly, you're saying that you need 50 hrs on type to get a multi rating?  Just checking my logbook, and I got my multi-engine rating on a BE-76 in 2001 with 9.5hrs Dual and 1.1hrs Solo (that being the ME flight test)

After my multi-IFR flight test, I had 23.8hrs Dual and 2.5hrs Solo (both flt tests)

Unless you mean you need 50 hrs BEFORE doing a multi rating..  ie. on single eng a/c...  OR if you're talking military time..  if that's the case, I'll find out after my Sea King OTU in 2019   
 
I think he means you need 50 hrs PIC on type before you can have your CPL.  PIC is NOT the same as Solo. 

Max
 
SupersonicMax said:
PIC is NOT the same as Solo. 

Max

In my civie logbook the columns indicate "Dual" "PIC" "Co-pilot"  ; and in my mil logbook has the columns "Dual" and "Pilot" for SE ; and "Dual" "First Pilot" "Second Pilot" for ME...   so unless I ain't smokin' what you're rollin', PIC is the same as Solo..  Been wrong before tho!

Hippie
 
In my books, PIC time is the time you are in charge of an aircraft.  In a multi-crew environment, that's the AC.  You have an FO, you are NOT solo and you still log it as First Pilot and you are the AC in the crew.

Max
 
According to the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_38 (scroll down to 3 & 4) civvy applicants need to pass the prescribed test: mil applicants need i) at least 50 hours in the last 24 months, or ii) to have qualified in the last 24 months.

(3) Multi-engine Class Rating - Requirements

(a) Skill

An applicant for a multi-engine class rating shall complete a flight test to the standard outlined in the Flight Test Standard, Multi-Engine Class Rating.

(b) Credits for DND Applicants

Active and retired personnel of the Canadian Forces who are qualified to the pilot aeroplane wings standard shall be considered to have satisfied the skill requirements as set forth above provided that the applicant:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time as pilot-in-command in multi-engine aeroplanes during the 24 months preceding the date of application for the rating, or

(ii) has met the prescribed standards of the Canadian Forces to act as pilot-in-command of multi-engine aeroplanes during the 24 months preceding the date of application for the rating.
 
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