Perun: Defence Strategy for Small Nations

[Halifax Tar]

True but the Navy needs them to be an actual useful Navy for Canada.

Same argument as the Navy

Which is why I see a need for Regular Army PY’s to be given up to them.

Honestly Canada should have given a lot more thought to what it was requiring from the Army at that point and tossed numbers to grow (so the constant stripping of units to fill others wasn’t required).

Right now a Btl Grp deploying Army doesn’t need the bodies it has.




Lol.


Honestly Roto’s should have been lengthened a long time ago. 9-12 months would have decreased the need to keep raping other units.

Agreed.

If we're going to maintain and expeditionary Army then the RCN should have the tools move it around IMHO.

 

[KevinB]

Agreed.

If we're going to maintain and expeditionary Army then the RCN should have the tools move it around IMHO.

Yup - which may mean needing to scale the Army back to allow for the proper support structures both in the Army itself, as well as the RCN and RCAF.

I don’t see the usefulness of having a larger Army that can’t go anywhere or do anything in a timely fashion.

 

[GR66]

Yup - which may mean needing to scale the Army back to allow for the proper support structures both in the Army itself, as well as the RCN and RCAF.

I don’t see the usefulness of having a larger Army that can’t go anywhere or do anything in a timely fashion.

I've suggested previously that the GOC subsidize additional RO-RO ferries for BC Ferries and Marine Atlantic that have military compatible Comms and a superstructure capable of supporting installation of a helipad. Some of the crew positions could be dedicated to Naval Reserve members and the ships could be "activated" for a week or so per year so that loading/unloading exercises can be practiced.

Similarly, the RCAF could purchase a dozen or so extra MRTTs and just park them. Lots of trained Airbus pilots around that can be brought in during a crisis if required.

Helicopter pilots are probably more difficult to come by so that may require Reg Force expansion to cover that requirement.

 

[quadrapiper]

I've suggested previously that the GOC subsidize additional RO-RO ferries for BC Ferries and Marine Atlantic that have military compatible Comms and a superstructure capable of supporting installation of a helipad. Some of the crew positions could be dedicated to Naval Reserve members and the ships could be "activated" for a week or so per year so that loading/unloading exercises can be practiced.

Similarly, the RCAF could purchase a dozen or so extra MRTTs and just park them. Lots of trained Airbus pilots around that can be brought in during a crisis if required.

Helicopter pilots are probably more difficult to come by so that may require Reg Force expansion to cover that requirement.

Marine Atlantic only, unless you'd like basing vessels for domestic coastal work: BC Ferries only has (had?) one run that dictates a more or less oceangoing vessel. Everything else is served by various sizes of double-ended floating parking garage.

Now, planting a helipad and sundry other enablers (fitted for but not with items: dry lines for extra communications systems, power and water runs to the car decks, e.g.) and funding enough that you could pull one out of revenue service, might be an interesting tool for provincial emergency response.

 

[ArmyRick]

Part way through this video. Good watch. Reminds me of my napkin armed forces experiment I put out a few months ago.

 

[Kirkhill]

Marine Atlantic only, unless you'd like basing vessels for domestic coastal work: BC Ferries only has (had?) one run that dictates a more or less oceangoing vessel. Everything else is served by various sizes of double-ended floating parking garage.

That isn't to say that we couldn't subsidize BC Ferries to put ocean going boats on some of their other runs, or just subsidize two or three ships to run from Vancouver to Rupert and Anchorage.

Now, planting a helipad and sundry other enablers (fitted for but not with items: dry lines for extra communications systems, power and water runs to the car decks, e.g.) and funding enough that you could pull one out of revenue service, might be an interesting tool for provincial emergency response.

Or even fit them with as nice to haves - ie it would be nice to have a couple of medical facilities in reach by helicopter cruising up and down the coast - a ferry with a pad, good comms and a small but expandable medical treatment facility. Etc.

 

[quadrapiper]

Or even fit them with as nice to haves - ie it would be nice to have a couple of medical facilities in reach by helicopter cruising up and down the coast - a ferry with a pad, good comms and a small but expandable medical treatment facility. Etc.

The simplest way to rig that sort of thing would be trailers or other modular arrangements moving onto the car decks. Preserves the passenger deck space for holding/warming/whatever and doesn't require either a mostly-wasted block of space or extensive engineering/crazed unbolting of seating to turn passenger decks into something else.

 

[Kirkhill]

The simplest way to rig that sort of thing would be trailers or other modular arrangements moving onto the car decks. Preserves the passenger deck space for holding/warming/whatever and doesn't require either a mostly-wasted block of space or extensive engineering/crazed unbolting of seating to turn passenger decks into something else.

But if you are willing to subsidize at all then why not subsidize space on board as well? Make them bigger than strictly commercially necessary even if you maintain a "passenger deck" that is permanently locked off from the paying customers?

These things will lose money. Like most government services. On the other hand they are available to supply services.

 

[ArmyRick]

I like the video and how it went on about Kiwiland, Emuland and Freedom-whatever. Maybe we should ask them their thoughts on "Far North Huge country low population land"

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You be better off building a proper hanger, then it might survive the North Atlantic intact. that framework is strong enough to damage the helicopters when it collapses and adds a significant fire risk.

Canada needs to step away from Federal Fleet services, take the lessons learned from that, the RFA , the US systems and stand up the RCFA.

This fleet starts out with Astreix and the harbour tugs and some other small vessels like the Torpedo Recovery vessels.

Davie is contracted to build Astreix sistership and put into the RCFA fleet. Two Kingstons are transferred to this fleet and outfitted for route survey and clearance, one on each coast. Eventually these will be replaced by more modern vessels with AUV's.

So eventually the RCFA fleet will look like this:

2x AOR's
2x Amphibious landing ships (Mistral or similar)
2x route clearance vessels
1x Oceangoing and ice strengthened LST (Mainly for Arctic ops)
1x Ocean going tug with salvage, towing and firefighting capability
1x Ocean going Fleet Repair vessel, with cranes, divers, repair shops
Multiple smaller vessels on each coast (tugs, personal ferries, floating cranes, etc)

The RCFA primary mission is to support the RCN and the government of Canada's objectives
Secondary missions to support Allied efforts overseas, both in training, and on missions
Third mission is to support the training and certification of Canadian Merchant Marine personal to be come the future RCFA personal, ships pilots, escort tug masters, etc. Each maritime school gets slots and funding to send candidates onto the vessels. Slots are also open for Naval Reserve and Sea Cadets.

The RCFA could be structured under DND or another Department as a SOA, similar to how the CCG operates. The RCFA could also support CCG missions like environmental disasters or disaster response. I am guessing the above fleet will need roughly 500 seagoing personal, plus supplements from the other orgs.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think your landing ships and AMPHIBs need to RCN vessels. As I think they would be considered combatants.

But I stand to be corrected.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think your landing ships and AMPHIBs need to RCN vessels. As I think they would be considered combatants.

But I stand to be corrected.

Perhaps, except that we don't have the Naval sailors for them currently or in the foreseeable future. Get the RCFA going, then you have the ships for all your peacetime training and for non-ocean warfare ops. I am not suggesting opposed landings but mainly the movement of the army to coastal areas for whatever ops there are. I will argue that the only area they would be at major risk is in the Western Pacific. The biggest risks would be from Non-State actors opposing the delivery of the army who likely being sent to suppress their activities. So that would be floating IED's, suicide boats (manned and unmanned) and drones and homemade loitering ammunition.

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps, except that we don't have the Naval sailors for them currently or in the foreseeable future. Get the RCFA going, then you have the ships for all your peacetime training and for non-ocean warfare ops. I am not suggesting opposed landings but mainly the movement of the army to coastal areas for whatever ops there are. I will argue that the only area they would be at major risk is in the Western Pacific. The biggest risks would be from Non-State actors opposing the delivery of the army who likely being sent to suppress their activities. So that would be floating IED's, suicide boats (manned and unmanned) and drones and homemade loitering ammunition.

Build it and they will come…

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Build it and they will come…

The RCFA is bigger than just the RCN. It can be a vehicle to address issues across Canada and can be a pipeline to produce sailors, deck and engine room officers for the RCFA and all of Canada's marine industries. Without that steady supply of deck officers, there will be a shortage of tugboat Captains and Ships pilots, which will have a significant impact on the economy, which in turns impacts how much money there is for the RCN renewal.

 

[YZT580]

You be better off building a proper hanger, then it might survive the North Atlantic intact. that framework is strong enough to damage the helicopters when it collapses and adds a significant fire risk.

Canada needs to step away from Federal Fleet services, take the lessons learned from that, the RFA , the US systems and stand up the RCFA.

This fleet starts out with Astreix and the harbour tugs and some other small vessels like the Torpedo Recovery vessels.

Davie is contracted to build Astreix sistership and put into the RCFA fleet. Two Kingstons are transferred to this fleet and outfitted for route survey and clearance, one on each coast. Eventually these will be replaced by more modern vessels with AUV's.

So eventually the RCFA fleet will look like this:

2x AOR's
2x Amphibious landing ships (Mistral or similar)
2x route clearance vessels
1x Oceangoing and ice strengthened LST (Mainly for Arctic ops)
1x Ocean going tug with salvage, towing and firefighting capability
1x Ocean going Fleet Repair vessel, with cranes, divers, repair shops
Multiple smaller vessels on each coast (tugs, personal ferries, floating cranes, etc)

The RCFA primary mission is to support the RCN and the government of Canada's objectives
Secondary missions to support Allied efforts overseas, both in training, and on missions
Third mission is to support the training and certification of Canadian Merchant Marine personal to be come the future RCFA personal, ships pilots, escort tug masters, etc. Each maritime school gets slots and funding to send candidates onto the vessels. Slots are also open for Naval Reserve and Sea Cadets.

The RCFA could be structured under DND or another Department as a SOA, similar to how the CCG operates. The RCFA could also support CCG missions like environmental disasters or disaster response. I am guessing the above fleet will need roughly 500 seagoing personal, plus supplements from the other orgs.

nice, but everywhere you have two, you need 3 and all the ones need to become 2s plus add and 2 ice capable tugs for service up north

 

[KevinB]

The RCFA is bigger than just the RCN. It can be a vehicle to address issues across Canada and can be a pipeline to produce sailors, deck and engine room officers for the RCFA and all of Canada's marine industries. Without that steady supply of deck officers, there will be a shortage of tugboat Captains and Ships pilots, which will have a significant impact on the economy, which in turns impacts how much money there is for the RCN renewal.

Your idea could work for simple transport RORO’s but not for Amphibs or Landing Ships.
Those ships would be used to project power - and this combatants.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

nice, but everywhere you have two, you need 3 and all the ones need to become 2s plus add and 2 ice capable tugs for service up north

Sometimes you just have to accept 75% availability rates. Getting up to that level does not take that much, after that, it increases exponentially. The single LST gets a refit in winter and is ready to go for the summer Arctic season. If it's not available you adjust your plans.

 

[YZT580]

Sometimes you just have to accept 75% availability rates. Getting up to that level does not take that much, after that, it increases exponentially. The single LST gets a refit in winter and is ready to go for the summer Arctic season. If it's not available you adjust your plans.

So make it a single arctic certified tug, 2 ocean salvage tugs (one each side) there is no quick way to move resources from one coast to the other, and a third mistral because it is built to military specs. and the lead time for construction of even one is have a decade or more

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Your idea could work for simple transport RORO’s but not for Amphibs or Landing Ships.
Those ships would be used to project power - and this combatants.

Your thinking like an American

The LST is mostly domestic ops in the Arctic and possibly Caribbean or domestic exercises.

The Amphibious landing ships will support a lot of operations, often just moving equipment to Europe and back. Fleet exercises and other missions the government will send them on, such as humanitarian and UN support. Eventually you could convert those to naval crews, if you solve the recruitment problem which will already impact all of the current naval ship replacement plans. As YZT580 mentions, it will take 5-10 years to get those amphibious if we started tomorrow. Having Merchant Marine crew sealift ships is not new and is being done by the US as well under the Military Sealift Command. Also the RFA ran vessels in support of the Falklands as well.