P-8 Poseidon

[George Wallace]

Excellent points Max.  Air Traffic has been monitored closely for the last five or six decades and the tools used to monitor and track the thousands of aircraft in the air at one time have ever increased in their capabilities over those decades.  Stealth aircraft would have to be very sophisticated to elude detection, and an aircraft masquerading as a civilian airliner would not go unnoticed. 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Not quite.  If you are operating within 12 NM of a country's coast, you need to have a diplomatic clearance. 

If you operate outside 12 NM from the coast, you have 2 options: Due Regard or on a flight plan.

Due Regard, their ATC will see radar returns not on flight plan.  They will know a military aircraft is out you're doing some work. Only available to state aircraft.

If you are on a flight plan, you will have a Canforce callsign and will be filed as a military flight.

Either way, they'll know a military aircraft is out there.

I think that he meant the aircraft could stay incognito to drug ships, etc by flying along normal routes and appearing as a civilian airliner to the ship vice actually fooling a host nation ATC...

 

[McG]

Is detection and tracking of aircraft a developed capability within cartels?  I assume that would just provide another signature that makes them easier to find.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Bird_Gunner,

There are several tools to monitor non-military aircraft that are on a flight plan, a lot of them readily available online.  By elimination, it is fairly simple to deduct which one is civilian and which one is military.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Bird_Gunner,

There are several tools to monitor non-military aircraft that are on a flight plan, a lot of them readily available online.  By elimination, it is fairly simple to deduct which one is civilian and which one is military.

Agreed. But having worked in a TDL network/AD environment with North Bay I can assure you that there are ways in which flights can be blocked from internet/phone apps or masked if required. If that was the case than there would be no point to stealth aircraft as the "enemy" could just look them up on an app.

 

[SupersonicMax]

That's my point. As soon as you file Military as your flight type, it will be blocked from being seen by everybody.  Now, if let's say, a drug smugler sees an aircraft and it is not on those system, they could see it as a military flight.  By exclusion. 

Having been in North Bay, you should have an idea of the ressources Cartels have to avoid being detected and detecting us. Not that it is impossible to avoid being detected, but I don't think flying a civilian pattern aircraft is going to help much.

Tangent alert: Stealth is not meant for this kind of mission.  It's meant for war-time when you don't ask permission to enter sovereign airspace.

 

[Good2Golf]

Tangent alert: Stealth is not meant for this kind of mission.  It's meant for war-time when you don't ask permission to enter sovereign airspace.

So Canada intends to enter another nation's sovereign airspace without permission, hence the F-35 as opposed to less stealthy fighters?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

That's my point. As soon as you file Military as your flight type, it will be blocked from being seen by everybody.  Now, if let's say, a drug smugler sees an aircraft and it is not on those system, they could see it as a military flight.  By exclusion. 

Having been in North Bay, you should have an idea of the ressources Cartels have to avoid being detected and detecting us. Not that it is impossible to avoid being detected, but I don't think flying a civilian pattern aircraft is going to help much.

Tangent alert: Stealth is not meant for this kind of mission.  It's meant for war-time when you don't ask permission to enter sovereign airspace.

Tangent alert- I understand what stealth is for, as my previous discussions on aircraft have already indicated and really dont need your sarcasm. The stealth comparison was used to point out a fallacy with your example of ATC having overarching knowledge and being to bring up all the information off of the internet.

MCG- Drug smugglers do, in fact, have a great deal of resources, including submarines, and what they lack they have the money to buy after the fact. However, they are not TDL compatible (and to be fair, our military is BARELY TDL capable) and would only receive what is given by civilian authorities/radar signature. What the signature is would depend on the IFF mod. Based on availability, if they even had the IFF capability, they would be in the Mod 1-3 range, which only provides basic information. Modes 4-5 provide more detailed information on the aircraft, and cartels would certainly not have this.

That said, if one were to operate a sophisticated operation, one could easily become a "joker" or "faker" to appear as a civilian airliner(s) on the open network with prior authorization from government officials without causing any issue to ATC, not to mention in international waters.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

So Canada intends to enter another nation's sovereign airspace without permission, hence the F-35 as opposed to less stealthy fighters?

op:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think that he meant the aircraft could stay incognito to drug ships, etc by flying along normal routes and appearing as a civilian airliner to the ship vice actually fooling a host nation ATC...

Flying in airways will also limit the ability to localize and track a contact.  Once you find something it is better to hold it and hand it off. 

Even with the best passive technologies, there are times you can't remain overt and at high altitudes.  There are other things you do in those cases.


:2c:

 

[SupersonicMax]

G2G,

Canada precisely did this in Iraq (1991),  Yugoslavia (1999), Libya (2011) and as far as I know Syria (2015).

Based on this trend, I say there is a good possibility it may happen again in the next 40 years.

Bird_Gunner:  I wasn't sarcastic.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Flying in airways will also limit the ability to localize and track a contact.  Once you find something it is better to hold it and hand it off. 

Even with the best passive technologies, there are times you can't remain overt and at high altitudes.  There are other things you do in those cases.


:2c:

Agree. Being completely visible and letting suspected cartel ships/aircraft know you're watching them is a valid strategy as well.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Agree. Being completely visible and letting suspected cartel ships/aircraft know you're watching them is a valid strategy as well.

And then there is the trickier middle ground; covert and unnoticed.

 

[Good2Golf]

G2G,

Canada precisely did this in Iraq (1991),  Yugoslavia (1999), Libya (2011) and as far as I know Syria (2015).

Based on this trend, I say there is a good possibility it may happen again in the next 40 years.

Bird_Gunner:  I wasn't sarcastic.

I could see two modes of entering another nation's airspace: 1) conducting missions deliberately against an adversary, where "low (multi-spectral) visibility" (stealth) would be a tactical advantage, or 2) conduct of covert operations with an intent to deny involvement in the area.  If you mean that Canada needs the technology in the case of 1) above, then I concur with your assessment/logic.  I'm hoping you don't mean 2) as that is not in keeping with Canada's (general) perspective of above board/declared operations.

Regards
G2G

 

[SupersonicMax]

Nope, don't mean 2 at all!

 

[Spencer100]

The P-1 is looking to give the P-8 some competition.

http://aviationweek.com/blog/kawasaki-p-1-flies-air-tattoo

Nice pictures in the article, for those who have not seen it before. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

Meanwhile India buying more P-8s:

India To Buy 4 P-8s...

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the highest body in the MoD that decides weapons procurement, cleared the purchase of additional P-8I aircraft Tuesday on a government-to-government basis to top the eight already contracted in 2009.

The Indian Navy last year invoked the option clause in the contract under which it could order four additional P-8Is. The P-8I is the Indian variant of the P-8A...
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/15/india-boeing-p8-maritime-surveillance/30181931/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Zoomie]

Flying in airways will also limit the ability to localize and track a contact.  Once you find something it is better to hold it and hand it off. 

Even with the best passive technologies, there are times you can't remain overt and at high altitudes.  There are other things you do in those cases.

Somewhat of a necro post.  High and overt is something that happens quite frequently in the war against drugs.  The low and slow (ie P-3) get their target information from somewhere - right? ;-)

Flying in the high environment outside of sovereign airspace is actually un-monitored.  Most countries can see maybe 100nm off their coast - and that is primarily SSR for the civilian controllers.  It's quite easy to disappear up amongst the blue skies.  Most probably those at sea level can't even see those operating in the high flight levels.

 

[CougarKing]

More Poseidons on the way, including 4 for Australia.

Defense News

20 More P-8s for US, Australia Ordered From Boeing
By Christopher P. Cavas 12:59 a.m. EST January 29, 2016
Boeing P-8A Poseidon


WASHINGTON — The Boeing Company received a hefty $2.5 billion contract award from the US Navy to provide that service with 16 more P-8A Poseidon maritime multi-mission aircraft, along with four P-8As for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), the Pentagon announced Thursday.

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[CougarKing]

More to add to the Poseidon's sub-killing power:

Defense News

Boeing Showcases New Sub-Hunting Missile
Lara Seligman, Defense News 6:36 p.m. EDT May 18, 2016

WASHINGTON — Boeing showed off its newest sub-killing missile this week at the annual Sea-Air-Space conference, a flying torpedo that will enable the Navy’s P-8 Poseidon to hunt enemy submarines from great heights.

The HAAWC, which stands for High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability, is an add-on kit for the Navy’s Mark 54 lightweight torpedo that gives the weapon the ability to glide through the air high above the clouds. Boeing is aiming to have the technology on the Navy’s submarine-hunting P-8 in 2017, according to company representatives.

The HAAWC kit turns the torpedo into a miniature jet, complete with wings, a tail and a GPS-guided navigation system. Once it nears the water, the kit peels off and the system activates a parachute that lowers the weapon to the water. The engine then starts and the missile begins its run toward its target.

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