Out-of-shape soldiers a 'national threat'

[Infanteer]

There is no longer a fitness matrix nor an annual MTI.  Officer promotion exams are gone too.  I think objective criteria was considered too mean.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I have always been of the opinion that work will always be there.  Yes we all have stuff to do during the day at our job, but really, if you cut an hour or 2 of work for PT, its not like the world will end.

Also, to be fair being that we are in the profession of arms, PT is PART OF OUR JOBS.

On the flip side I would like to see more dedication from higher ups to fitness.  To many times CofC is lazy and decides lets just do a run (because it requires little to no planning/work on their part), with no training goal/plan in mind.  So we end up doing just running all week.

With all the various options at our disposal (sports, crossfit, weight room, spin class, army fitness centre, structured/interesting run workouts, beach/pool workouts, etc) I am dissappointed with my leadership in that regard.

On another note, I totally agree that the good hockey players and runners get rewarded by leadership.  I had a CSM who would bring the coy together to talk about how so and so did on a marathon or 10k run or hockey tournament over the weekend, yet he NEVER did that for any other sport anyone did, which I found was insulting to the rest of us.

I honestly think if you dont pass the fitness test, you should be put on remedial PT, and also have a period of time where you get no courses or promotions aka your career is at a halt until you prove you are fit again.


As to the whole if you do better then your command you get reward, I'm not so big on that one, since for example i've had several people in my CofC who were competitive marathon/long distance runners, well i'm sorry but if CSM or OC is 6ft and 150lbs with a 4:20 km, and habitually runs 10km's in under 40mins, I know for sure i'm not going to beat him , just like if my CSM or OC was a competitive lifter I probably couldn't beat them.

its funny though how when colleagues or people higher ranking then me tell me to pick it up on the run (I run 5k in 25-26mins so i'm not terribly slow) and I shoot back at them i'll go your speed when you can come to the gym and lift what I lift, they glare at me and say that's not fair because i'm a big guy and I lift on my own time, its funny how they don't see how the very argument they are using applies to running.

In conclusion I agree to yes ENFORCING the rules as they are.

also I am one of those people who think it is important to have 2nd language profile.  There are a lot of french troops thrown into anglo units without any 2nd language training and its nice for them to be able to converse properly to their fullest with higher ups.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm not sure how things are today, but waaay back when a CO's performance was 'measured' against many things.

If one's unit finished very high or very low on the fitness matrix that fact might make it on to a PER. If, on the other hand, one's unit got anything less than fully satisfactory mark on the annual MTI (Mechanical (including weapons), Telecommunications and Instruments) inspection it would appear on the CO's PER. I can recall, as a NCO, junior officer, sub-unit OC and CO, the efforts we made to "pass" the MTI. My recollection of the efforts we put into fitness and sports, including tests, is that it was substantially less.

If that's still the case then I have no doubt that the troops, especially the supervisory NCOs, understand and weigh their priorities accordingly.

I fondly - not -remember the days of the Bde Comd's Inspection where we scrubbed, polished, washed, sanded, painted etc and did drill for weeks on end to pass that blasted parade and inspection.
On CSM in the early 80s had all the troops, including PL WOs on laundry parade one night to ensure the troops laundered their uniforms to his standard.

Then came Jimmmmmy in 93.

 

[McG]

... we should not further incorporate fitness into the CFPAS more than as it is now as a P/F.

In the military, as in professional sports, it is the ability to go beyond the minimum - achieving some extraordinary physical feat or outperforming that paragon on the other team - which is the deciding factor in victory.  In professional sports, defeat is unlikely to equate with death(s).  So if professional sports can recognize physical prowess in ascension of pers, surely the military should.

This is not to say that fitness should be disproportionately weighted, but we should be able to score it on a scale equivalent to every other bullet in the performance section, and we should be able to award that score based on empirical measurement from a common fitness test. 

 

[ModlrMike]

We should not score fitness on a curve - to do so will only reward the gym rats. Pass/fail is sufficient for our needs. We have a defined standard, one that now represents the ability to complete common military tasks.

IMO, the annual fitness test should be done in Apr for everyone, no exceptions; 100% testing of available personnel. If you fail, then there is an entire year for you to sort yourself out and you should be able to retest at any time during the subsequent year. If you need to go on course or are slated for promotion after you've failed, then you test again. No pass = no course / promotion until you pass. If you fail in Mar, then you're passed over for promotion and career action occurs. We should not make this any more complex than it needs to be.

I understand that work will always be there, and that sometimes operational necessity will create seemingly insurmountable pressure to complete the work. That being said, there are ways to schedule one's troops to accomplish both work flow and PT. If the CoC demands that work is done to the exclusion of PT then they've clearly misunderstood the message.

If we accept that fitness is a condition of service then the quid-pro-quo is that we provide time during normal working hours. This should not mean that we extend the work day.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We should not score fitness on a curve - to do so will only reward the gym rats. Pass/fail is sufficient for our needs. We have a defined standard, one that now represents the ability to complete common military tasks.

IMO, the annual fitness test should be done in Apr for everyone, no exceptions; 100% testing of available personnel. If you fail, then there is an entire year for you to sort yourself out and you should be able to retest at any time during the subsequent year. If you need to go on course or are slated for promotion after you've failed, then you test again. No pass = no course / promotion until you pass. If you fail in Mar, then you're passed over for promotion and career action occurs. We should not make this any more complex than it needs to be.

I understand that work will always be there, and that sometimes operational necessity will create seemingly insurmountable pressure to complete the work. That being said, there are ways to schedule one's troops to accomplish both work flow and PT. If the CoC demands that work is done to the exclusion of PT then they've clearly misunderstood the message.

If we accept that fitness is a condition of service then the quid-pro-quo is that we provide time during normal working hours. This should not mean that we extend the work day.

This is where I do not agree, if we limit ourselves to only achieving the minimum then we are always settling for less which is the completely wrong attitude in the profession of arms.  For the record I don't think anyone here is arguing for some uberninja test on the scale of an NFL combine.  All some of us are saying is that if we want to make fitness a priority in the CF then we need to start linking it with career progression and CFPAS. 

I think part of the problem is a lot of people do not actually understand how they receive the score they do on their PERs.  It is based on achieving certain key benchmarks at your present rank.  Performance at work still accounts for a substantial majority of the score but their are other things like French, professional development (i.e. career courses), education, etc... that give you points towards your final score.  So when you see that you are MOI on your PER only 75%-80% of that score is really based on your work performance, the other 25% is based on you hitting your career benchmarks.  What Infanteer proposed and what seems logical to me is taking fitness and incorporating it into that 25% and making it a scaled system so that people will compete for it.

Your argument that this will just allow gym rats to rise up is a fallacious argument.  If someone spends all their time in the gym they will still only add 5% to their potential score on their PER while they may very well have neglected their other areas now so it will balance itself out. 

 

[dapaterson]

There is a difference between Cbt Arms in garrison, who train to maintain their skills, and CSS soldiers in garrison, who actively employ their skills in garrison.

CSS soldiers have clear deliverables and tasks in garrison.  For example, if vehicles are not maintained, the unit VOR goes up and operational readiness is clearly, quantifiably diminished.  If an infantry platoon doesn't do a periodic refresher on MGs, the impact isn't visible or quantifiable, and a commander can't see it.

So a commander will order his support soldiers to lower his VOR.  Since we aren't issued more than 24 hours in a day, leaders have to prioritize tasks within that time.  And if soldiers have to work 10 hours a day in garrison they'll do so, plus add in a few Saturdays.  So PT may get pushed to the right - because their commanders have given higher priorities to their troops.

Commanders have three COAs:

(1) Request additional resources;
(2) Accept a higher VOR;
(3) Accept less PT.

COA (4), more PT and lower VOR, results in burnt out CSS soldiers - particularly when they see their Cbt Arms brethren and sistren sliding out at 15h00, when they've still got another 3 hours of work ahead of them.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I can see it now;

Bde Comd- WTF do you mean I only have one aev and six tanks available for for ex ANAL RAM???
CO Strats and 1CER-  Sorry sir,  but a least everyone got their PT in
Bde Comd-  Oh, we'll, good enough then, ex cancelled

;D

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There is a difference between Cbt Arms in garrison, who train to maintain their skills, and CSS soldiers in garrison, who actively employ their skills in garrison.

CSS soldiers have clear deliverables and tasks in garrison.  For example, if vehicles are not maintained, the unit VOR goes up and operational readiness is clearly, quantifiably diminished.  If an infantry platoon doesn't do a periodic refresher on MGs, the impact isn't visible or quantifiable, and a commander can't see it.

So a commander will order his support soldiers to lower his VOR.  Since we aren't issued more than 24 hours in a day, leaders have to prioritize tasks within that time.  And if soldiers have to work 10 hours a day in garrison they'll do so, plus add in a few Saturdays.  So PT may get pushed to the right - because their commanders have given higher priorities to their troops.

Commanders have three COAs:

(1) Request additional resources;
(2) Accept a higher VOR;
(3) Accept less PT.

COA (4), more PT and lower VOR, results in burnt out CSS soldiers - particularly when they see their Cbt Arms brethren and sistren sliding out at 15h00, when they've still got another 3 hours of work ahead of them.

This I can agree with; however, I still don't think it excuses people from being unfit which is why I am agreeing with Infanteer that we need to incorporate fitness into CFPAS and incorporate it into that discretionary 25%.  I need to work extra hard to learn to speak french as an anglophone so I can earn my extra points so why shouldn't I be able to earn extra points for being very fit as well? 

If we do this, then the onus is on the member to get himself in shape as it is something that can help him get a few extra points to get promoted.  I often wouldn't have time to do PT during the day when I worked at the Bn and in my present job I sometimes don't have time to do it either, so what does that mean?  It means I come in early and do it or hit the gym after work.

It takes an hour of your day to stay in shape, along with some healthy eating and good lifestyle choices, an hour is not asking a heck of a lot. 

I can see it now;

Bde Comd- WTF do you mean I only have one aev and six tanks available for for ex ANAL RAM???
CO Strats and 1CER-  Sorry sir,  but a least everyone got their PT in
Bde Comd-  Oh, we'll, good enough then, ex cancelled

;D

We could have a smoker instead

 

[Infanteer]

CSS soldiers have clear deliverables and tasks in garrison.  For example, if vehicles are not maintained, the unit VOR goes up and operational readiness is clearly, quantifiably diminished.  If an infantry platoon doesn't do a periodic refresher on MGs, the impact isn't visible or quantifiable, and a commander can't see it.

I keep seeing this argument - if we have to do PT for 30-45 minutes, everything goes to crap.  It's just thrown out there.  I look at the ESR every day and have commanded CSS soldiers (including Maint Pl).  Busy? yes.  But the rifle companies can get just as busy during the week and they do have stuff to do in garrison.  The VOR is more a function of lack of parts - our ESR is largely "W/P".

Our unit CSS soldiers have no problems maintaining an active PT program while still doing their job, so I'm still not buying it. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I keep seeing this argument - if we have to do PT for 30-45 minutes, everything goes to crap.  It's just thrown out there.  I look at the ESR every day and have commanded CSS soldiers (including Maint Pl).  Busy? yes.  But the rifle companies can get just as busy during the week and they do have stuff to do in garrison.  The VOR is more a function of lack of parts - our ESR is largely "W/P".

Our unit CSS soldiers have no problems maintaining an active PT program while still doing their job, so I'm still not buying it.

Having spent a little bit of time with the Sigs and also with our CSS Coy I would echo this.  In all honesty, our CSS guys at 3 RCR were some of the fittest guys we had at the Bn and I am not BSing when I say that, these guys put a lot of the infanteers in the unit to shame.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There is a difference between Cbt Arms in garrison, who train to maintain their skills, and CSS soldiers in garrison, who actively employ their skills in garrison.

CSS soldiers have clear deliverables and tasks in garrison.  For example, if vehicles are not maintained, the unit VOR goes up and operational readiness is clearly, quantifiably diminished.  If an infantry platoon doesn't do a periodic refresher on MGs, the impact isn't visible or quantifiable, and a commander can't see it.

So a commander will order his support soldiers to lower his VOR.  Since we aren't issued more than 24 hours in a day, leaders have to prioritize tasks within that time.  And if soldiers have to work 10 hours a day in garrison they'll do so, plus add in a few Saturdays.  So PT may get pushed to the right - because their commanders have given higher priorities to their troops.

Commanders have three COAs:

(1) Request additional resources;
(2) Accept a higher VOR;
(3) Accept less PT.

COA (4), more PT and lower VOR, results in burnt out CSS soldiers - particularly when they see their Cbt Arms brethren and sistren sliding out at 15h00, when they've still got another 3 hours of work ahead of them.

Great post.  Infantry guys can get away with sliding our early or doing PT twice a day. CSS guys are busy up until 1600hrs.

I'd rather see CSS guys get less PT if it means our vehicles and equipment are in better condition. 


When a soldier is unfit (okay let's call them unacceptably over weight) whether they do PT 3 times a week or 5 it won't make a difference. That's not enough to get someone in shape. Those people need healthier life styles including better eating habits, less bad habits, PT on their own time.

 

[dapaterson]

I think we're in violent agreement.

Generally, CSS soldiers can schedule and conduct PT like any others.  Sometimes, however, higher priorities will intrude.  (And hopefully, those higher priorities will come along with parts).


And OZ's point is bang on: PT is only part of the solution: healthier lifestyle is the foundation.  Diet Coke with a burger and fries isn't the solution - the burger and fries is the problem.

 

[northernboy_24]

According to some recent studies that diet coke is also a big problem, especially with the burger and fries. Since having the sweet taste without the calories tricks the body and causes it to hold onto all calories it can.  Look up metabolic disease, according to several studies drinking one can of pop a day (diet or regular) can result in increased insulin levels, fat deposits in the visceral tissues, high blood pressure etc etc.

But what do I know I am one of the ones with a BMI of over 30, after all someone who works out several times a week, bikes to and from work and manages my diet extremely carefully is part of the problem.  It doesn't matter I have a 32 inch waist, a lower percentage body fat and regularly works cardio and weights into my workouts (cough *crossfit* cough). Since eating healthy, working out and paying huge grocery bills isn't rewarded maybe I will resort to eating pre-frozen cheap food and burgers and fries.  That sounds a lot easier than making tandoori mahi mahi with stir-fried veggies and quinoa.

I tried to get unit PT around here and got laughed at and told "we do PT on our own" and PSP requires a minimum of  12-15 pers to run a unit PT class.  I guess I will stick to PT on my own time and dime and suppliment it with the occasional swim at the CF facilities.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If you're a regular force member working at a reserve unit or a reservist on a 3 year  contract then the reserve unit is supposed to provide you with a gym membership if no CF facility is available. I was on a year class B contract fought to get a gym membership and lost, which was ironic because the people on the 3 year contracts who were allowed to get a membership never used the gym (or really did PT).

 

[northernboy_24]

I have access to CF facilities I just choose to rarely use them and workout at a gym of my choice.  I am not complaining about spending money for the gym.  Far from it, I love my gym and the crazy people that go there.  I just despise the lack of people here that are willing to do unit PT.  I am not asking for them to do it daily but even once a week would be a fun time to do a circuit, go for a run, etc, I will even let them choose.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

MJP, your profile says you are at Svc Bn, if that is still true we are no longer at the same unit, I left in April for 1 VP and that is wear my opinion is based on.  And not to side track this thread to much, but Svc Bn would be well served if they put "production", what ever service that maybe for you, ahead of everything else.  Svc Bn has had a well deserved reputation in 1 CMBG at least(for the past 25 years), for not supporting the Bde because they are to busy doing everything else(including PT 4/5 days a week).  I think at least in some parts of Svc Bn this is starting to change after 3 different Comd teams running FSG's this spring, and seeing that support to the Bde is Svc Bn primary role, not it's secondary role :-/

My task is to keep 55 LAV's and 100-ish B Vehicles operational, and sometimes I do need to limit PT and even going on non career courses, and nice to do taskings, in order to accomplish this.  This is the reality in a high readiness Inf BG.  And in the end my troops all can still pass the BFT with no issues, we may not set any records, but we meet the standard, and most importantly we can more than meet the physical and mental demands of operations, which in the end is why we promote PT and have these standards.

Jon

What about "staggered" PT times?  I know it sounds stupid but is it really so different from a 'tactical feed' in the field?  I've seen those work so not everyone is off the def pos'n, etc etc at the same time. 

Stagger PT times as a sub-unit solution and have it run at the sub-unit level.  Adhere to the CDS words (the mantras of "PT on your own time" or "we are too busy to include it in the work day" are to be eliminated)  and the DAOD (1 hour sessions x 5 days a week unless operational reason mean "cannot"). 

Find the "this is how we can make this work" solution; not the PERFECT one.  I sure don't ever remember making 'the plan' that was perfect, but I am sure I cooked off more than a few that 'worked'.

I think the 'change' will start with it being enforced from the top down to start. 

If physical fitness is a Leaderhsip issue institutionally speaking, than individually speaking I believe it is a 'discipline' issue.  So start with enforced, then move thru group --> habits --> self. 

But it has to start from the top, be enforced and 'lead by example' from the top.  :2c:

 

[DrSize]

First off, BMI is absolutely useless and I think anyone can agree on that.  If you are athletic with a decent amount of muscle mass the BMI will rate you as overweight or obese.  PT benchmarks are far more relevant to ones actual shape and truly how fit they are.

Secondly, having been posted to the NCR and having sat outside NDHQ many times to pick my wife up from work, I have seen the fitness level of the people there in their CFs and it is a very sad state.  Maybe 10% if that looked like they have seen the inside of a gym and ate a proper diet.

Next point, nutrition is far more essential than actual training.  That being said, anyone who has a belly or is overweight in a bad way has absolutely no f'n excuse to be an embarrassment to the uniform, and yes we are a joke due to the poor physical condition of the majority of our members.  Nutrition is 70% and Training is 30%.  People need to learn to eat one ingredient food (Chicken, Beef, Buffalo, Fish, Eggs, Turkey, Spinach, Asparagus, Kale, Berries etc).  Also our kitchens need to do a better job and have healthier options.  While I was away on a 3 month career course with the exception of getting hard boiled eggs in the morning there was absolutely 0 healthy options for lunch and supper and you look at the staff and they are all obese and don't have a clue how to eat properly.  I understand cooks are the lowest of the low but we need to recruit some healthy fit cooks that have the knowledge to come up with proper healthy meals without all the extra shit they put in.

So basically what I am getting at is the problem doesn't lie with the actual PT but with people not have the discipline to make smart choices when it comes to their health and fitness and waist line.  People need to take more pride in themselves and the uniform they put on and we truly need to start looking the part of a fit fighting force.  If someone has a high bodyfat % they need to take a hard look at themselves and maybe say yeah I don't need that doughnut, or maybe going to McDicks for lunch isn't the right thing to do, or lets not order that pizza tonight and BBQ some chicken breast instead to go over some spinach.  Instead of that late night snack or beer, have some eggs, it is not hard, it just takes some discipline.

The actual PT part is easy, if you don't have time at work and can't make time at work either wake up an hour early or train after work or in the evening.  Another solution is instead of going to McDicks for lunch....how about you train then, I am sure your supervisor would even give you 1.5 hours for it if you didn't have time first thing in the morning or at the end of the day.  There is no excuse to not be fit......period

I would like to see a system implemented to get rid of the out of shape.  If there BF % reaches a point that is too high they are put on C&P with 6 months to correct it and then release if they are unable too.  You would start to see people start watching their dirty habits and lifestyle choices a lot more closely and we would start to look like an actual fit military and start making time for PT.  Most people (civilian) work a regular work day (some 12 hours) and then go train after work.  It comes down to pride.

The CF Express Test was not good because it was gender and age specific which is not right.  The FORCE test is a step in the right direction.  I once had a Cpl who was in his 20s and couldn't pass the Express, his second failure I briefed my CoC on how we need to take adminstrative action and at the very least an IC so we could escalate to a RW if he continued to fail and then ultimately push for release.  I was not backed up and nothing, we need to start disciplining people for failing PT tests as it is unacceptable

 

[Infanteer]

What about "staggered" PT times?

It's not stupid - it's perfectly sensible and I've done it before.  Like I said before, we need to get away from the idea that 0730-1000 is the only time we can give to PT.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Very good discussion, all.

But it has to start from the top, be enforced and 'lead by example' from the top.  :2c:

.... Another solution is instead of going to McDicks for lunch....how about you train then, I am sure your supervisor would even give you 1.5 hours for it if you didn't have time first thing in the morning or at the end of the day ....

Then again, not all that long ago, there were people working in the NCR, former greens (and already very fit) who moved into light blue, who almost had to file a redress in order to get time to work out/stay fit.  I know "anecdote" is not the singular of "data", but it sounds like PT time policy is far from uniform.

My second-hand :2c: