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Ottawa to pay nearly $1B to settle sexual misconduct lawsuits against CAF

grayzone

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I'm not going to say they're lying, because you know, we should believe them, but applications to the suit for compensation required no substantiation, and a few people I heard mention that they had applied definitely made it sound like they applied just t get "free money",
{people I heard mention that they had applied definitely made it sound like they applied just t get "free money"}

...perhaps these people did not want to share the painful memories in a place they could be overheard by you. They may have minimized the impact of their experiences. It's almost as though you expect the candidness they might offer with their therapist.

Take a step back; faced with traumatic situations, some of us make light in crude, off-side remarks. Take an accident investigator faced with another gruesome crash, you wouldn't take their off-side remark and jot it down for the crash report.
 

PuckChaser

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I'm not going to say they're lying, because you know, we should believe them, but applications to the suit for compensation required no substantiation, and a few people I heard mention that they had applied definitely made it sound like they applied just t get "free money",
So believe all victims only counts if they're not men?
 

Eaglelord17

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I'm not going to say they're lying, because you know, we should believe them, but applications to the suit for compensation required no substantiation, and a few people I heard mention that they had applied definitely made it sound like they applied just t get "free money",
And you still likely had plenty who didn't apply at all even though they would be eligible.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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And you still likely had plenty who didn't apply at all even though they would be eligible.
This is actually a great point to make. Honestly, in some cases no amount of money is going to totally fix something either so it isn't really worth arguing about cost analysis when it comes to this stuff.
 
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So believe all victims only counts if they're not men?

Why does it have to be one or the other – why can’t both views be correct and supported? In order to be considered as a member of the Class Action you had to answer yes to the following question:

“Have you been a woman, identify as a woman or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+”

That was the criteria to be able to apply for compensation under the Class Action.

I am sure that there are some men who lied on the application to get some money. There were most likely some women who also may have stretched the truth to get money. There were also many, many legitimate claims that were filed as well.

The problem is that if the above is all true (and I believe it is), there are a number of issues that arise:

  • The application process lends itself to fraud as, to the best of my knowledge, there was no “check” or other way to verify if someone was not being truthful.
  • It becomes difficult to back up or believe any so called “facts” that are based upon the data that was collected form the applications.
  • Anyone who fraudulently applied received/will receive money they are not entitled to.
  • Fraudulent applications take away from some of the legitimacy and feelings of justice from those who were legitimately affected by this. Nothing gets people angrier than knowing that others are illegitimately benefiting from their pain and suffering.
  • The people who have legitimate claims under Part B and C of the Class Action (anything other than the $5k) have their claims settled based upon the money that is left over after the $5k settlements are paid. Therefore, the more fraudulent claims that are paid, the less money that there is to split up for the legitimate claims.

This is just my take on things. There are many angles to this, but in the end, the fraudulent claims take money and justice away from the legitimate ones and makes any “factual statements” about the data questionable at best.
 

Kat Stevens

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A billion?? Do you have any idea how many gender rights symposiums in South Sudan that could buy?
 

Jarnhamar

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Why does it have to be one or the other – why can’t both views be correct and supported? In order to be considered as a member of the Class Action you had to answer yes to the following question:

“Have you been a woman, identify as a woman or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+”

That was the criteria to be able to apply for compensation under the Class Action.
Men could still apply; I think they fell under a different compensation fund or ratio.
 

Jarnhamar

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A billion?? Do you have any idea how many gender rights symposiums in South Sudan that could buy?
After the $250 million to train facilitators, $150 million to conduct a pre-symposium survey, $75 million to a company to crunch the data and $125 in advertising?
 
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After the $250 million to train facilitators, $150 million to conduct a pre-symposium survey, $75 million to a company to crunch the data and $125 in advertising?
Men could still apply; I think they fell under a different compensation fund or ratio.

Yes men could apply, but they had to answer "yes" to the question: "Have you been a woman, identify as a woman or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+".

So if a man applied, in order to answer "truthfully", he would have had to have been a woman or identify as a woman at some point in time since 1985 or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+.

Also, all of the money comes from the same pot.
 

Jarnhamar

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Yes men could apply, but they had to answer "yes" to the question: "Have you been a woman, identify as a woman or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+".

So if a man applied, in order to answer "truthfully", he would have had to have been a woman or identify as a woman at some point in time since 1985 or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+.

Also, all of the money comes from the same pot.
Are you saying all of the men who applied (40% of the class action lawsuit) all answered yes to being a woman or LGBTQ2+?

cis heterosexual males were kept out of the class action lawsuit?
 

GreyWarden

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I hope I'm comprehending this right... so forgive me if I'm not.

But... money, is how they will handle serious issues like this? Was there any actual accountability done beforehand? Saying sorry without genuine action to do better is just pointless... but sadly, justice is hard to come by these days.

Please believe a person if they come up to you and speak. Don't victim blame. Encourage gently to report something, but don't make them feel guilty for choosing not to. Going through it all is incredibly stressful.
 
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Are you saying all of the men who applied (40% of the class action lawsuit) all answered yes to being a woman or LGBTQ2+?

cis heterosexual males were kept out of the class action lawsuit?

Yes that is exactly what the Class Actions terms says. You had to answer YES to the question in order to apply - that is the terms of the Class Action.

So in response to your question - yes, heterosexual males could not apply for compensation under the terms of the Class Action.
 

grayzone

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Why does it have to be one or the other – why can’t both views be correct and supported? In order to be considered as a member of the Class Action you had to answer yes to the following question:

“Have you been a woman, identify as a woman or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+”

That was the criteria to be able to apply for compensation under the Class Action.

I am sure that there are some men who lied on the application to get some money. There were most likely some women who also may have stretched the truth to get money. There were also many, many legitimate claims that were filed as well.

The problem is that if the above is all true (and I believe it is), there are a number of issues that arise:

  • The application process lends itself to fraud as, to the best of my knowledge, there was no “check” or other way to verify if someone was not being truthful.
  • It becomes difficult to back up or believe any so called “facts” that are based upon the data that was collected form the applications.
  • Anyone who fraudulently applied received/will receive money they are not entitled to.
  • Fraudulent applications take away from some of the legitimacy and feelings of justice from those who were legitimately affected by this. Nothing gets people angrier than knowing that others are illegitimately benefiting from their pain and suffering.
  • The people who have legitimate claims under Part B and C of the Class Action (anything other than the $5k) have their claims settled based upon the money that is left over after the $5k settlements are paid. Therefore, the more fraudulent claims that are paid, the less money that there is to split up for the legitimate claims.

This is just my take on things. There are many angles to this, but in the end, the fraudulent claims take money and justice away from the legitimate ones and makes any “factual statements” about the data questionable at best.
the fol applies to many incomplete/misinformed posts:
...so many people are worried about fraud (without grounds beyond hearing people muse about 'how easy it would be') and end up missing half the info or miss-reading the info...

"Current and former CAF members, and current and former employees of DND and the SNPF, CF, who experienced sexual misconduct in the military workplace may submit a confidential claim for financial compensation and apply to participate in a Restorative Engagement program."

There are 3 categories members may apply for: A, B and C.

I have to wonder how many of the commentators have even read the entire 22 page claim application, understanding that most may not have had reason to.
* Reading the application is still good SA on the cultural changes that have so far failed to take hold.
 

Good2Golf

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…unless the Q-for-Questioning is interpreted as questioning why CIS-gendered males shouldn’t otherwise be considered as well…
 

grayzone

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Yes that is exactly what the Class Actions terms says. You had to answer YES to the question in order to apply - that is the terms of the Class Action.

So in response to your question - yes, heterosexual males could not apply for compensation under the terms of the Class Action.
That is incorrect. You are ignoring two of the three categories.
 

grayzone

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Brief summary of the sexual misconduct claims:

CAF LGBT Purge Canada’s Cold War Purge of LGBTQ from the Military
“exposed LGBTQ servicemen and women were pressured to reveal fellow gays or lesbians in the service and given the “choice” to resign with an honourable discharge, or face court-martial and a dishonourable discharge. These practices continued through the 1960s, 70s and 80s.”

Sexual Misconduct Class Action

Settlement agreement approved 25 Nov 2019
CAF class members defined: current or former CAF members who experienced Sexual Misconduct up to and including Nov 25, 2019

DND/SNPF class members defined: current and former employees of DND and of the Staff of the Non-Public Funds, Canadian Forces, who experienced Sexual Misconduct up to and including Nov 25, 2019

Claims
Cat A –1985 onward, women and LGBTQ2+ only, who experienced sexual harassment and discrimination
As I understand it, this fills the gap between the LGBT Purge Settlement and 2019, because those not swept up in the purge, and those who served after, still suffered discrimination, harassment, assaults… Based on gender and sexual orientation (no straight males for this part only)

Cat B1– sexual harassment and/or sexual assault in the form of unwanted sexual touching

Cat B2 – sexual assault in the form of sexual attack or sexual activity

Cat C – members for which VAC benefits have been denied
As I understand it, this is to rectify past VAC claim denials, and bringing it in line with the changes to VAC policies enacted as part of the settlement.

If you want to be Frank about it, I’ll be the boy named Sue and say that the threads on social media, including the posts here, show me just how ill informed we all were regarding the particulars of the Class Action Settlement. When the non-victimized find it confusing and convoluted, then how are distressed survivors meant to make sense of it, mostly in isolation, because of the still taboo nature of the topic.
What a mess. We owe them better than this.
 
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heterosexual males were not excluded from applying to the claim, though category B and C

Yes - you are correct about category B and C . I should have been clearer on that - my post about the "illegitimate claims" was directed at the Category A compensation (the $5k amount) as it is the one that did not require any sort of evidence in order to file.

Category B and C require specific incidents in order to apply. Could there be some illegitimate claims under B and C sure, but I would suspect that most of them would be under category A which was limited only to groups specified earlier.
 
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the fol applies to many incomplete/misinformed posts:
...so many people are worried about fraud (without grounds beyond hearing people muse about 'how easy it would be') and end up missing half the info or miss-reading the info...

"Current and former CAF members, and current and former employees of DND and the SNPF, CF, who experienced sexual misconduct in the military workplace may submit a confidential claim for financial compensation and apply to participate in a Restorative Engagement program."

There are 3 categories members may apply for: A, B and C.

I have to wonder how many of the commentators have even read the entire 22 page claim application, understanding that most may not have had reason to.
* Reading the application is still good SA on the cultural changes that have so far failed to take hold.

Just to be clear, not that I have to, but I am speaking as a person who HAS filed a claim and am referencing the information from the Class Action website. I am not making this up - I am well read on this. For all who are interested, here are some links:

Settlement Document:


Q and As:

 
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