Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)

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swonder25

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Hi again folks,

I was on here before looking for some information on COT's, which Guy Incognito was nice enough to find for me. My trb was at the end of November and that is when I was removed from course and cease trained. I interviewed with the bpso at the beginning of May (way beyond the 70 days in the Canforgen) and to date, still do not have a new trade.

Basically we are looking at 8-9 months and counting and given that I have already been advised on this msg board that 8-12 months would be falling through the cracks, I feel confident in saying this is getting a bit ridiculous. Is anyone aware of how I can find out out what is happening? What avenues would I have to rectify this delay? I am assuming I should be putting together a grievance based on the simple fact that the 30-70-90 timeline in the canforgen has been completely disregarded.

Thanks for your help!
 

Jorkapp

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swonder25 said:
Hi again folks,

I was on here before looking for some information on COT's, which Guy Incognito was nice enough to find for me. My trb was at the end of November and that is when I was removed from course and cease trained. I interviewed with the bpso at the beginning of May (way beyond the 70 days in the Canforgen) and to date, still do not have a new trade.

Basically we are looking at 8-9 months and counting and given that I have already been advised on this msg board that 8-12 months would be falling through the cracks, I feel confident in saying this is getting a bit ridiculous. Is anyone aware of how I can find out out what is happening? What avenues would I have to rectify this delay? I am assuming I should be putting together a grievance based on the simple fact that the 30-70-90 timeline in the canforgen has been completely disregarded.

Thanks for your help!

The 90 day timeline isn't 90 days and you're in your new trade:

(2) OTHERWISE REFERRED TO THE PSO OFFICE TO DETERMINE SUITABILITY FOR A COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFER-UNTRAINED (COT-U). THE CHAIN OF COMMAND SHALL ENSURE THAT THE MEMBER MEETS WITH THE BASE OR WING PSO FOR AN INITIAL CAREER COUNSELLING SESSION WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE AND THAT THE PSO REPORT (CF 285) AND ALL ACCOMPANYING ADMINISTRATIVE PAPERWORK ARE SUBMITTED TO DGMC/DMILC 7 FOR A DETERMINATION OF FURTHER SERVICE WITHIN NINETY (90) DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE. SHOULD THE MEMBER NOT BE INTERESTED IN TRANSFERRING TO A MILITARY OCCUPATION THAT IS AVAILABLE WITHIN 90 DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE, THE MEMBER SHALL BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THIS DECISION. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY THE PRACTICE OF RETAINING A MEMBER ON THE BASIC TRG LIST UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A MILITARY OCCUPATION OF INTEREST TO THE MEMBER BECOMES AVAILABLE FOR OT UNTRAINED SHALL CEASE

The 90 days represents a limit for you to have chosen a new trade and have been interviewed by the BPSO for suitability. By the sound of things, you've met that deadline. DGMC has no deadline to get you into a new trade. I too fell through the cracks on reassignment years ago. From my CT date to reassignment was 51 weeks. In my case, there was a misunderstanding between the BPSO and DGMC about whether or not I needed a new medical, and it stalled my file until someone figured out what was going on. Your best bet is to regularly contact the BPSO and inquire about the status of your file. Failing that, get your chain involved.
 

Untamed Spyder

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Hey, so I am currently in the Air Force and so far, i feel like i don't belong here. I heard its extremely complicated and a very long process to change elements. Anyone have any experience in changing elements? I'm RegF and currently a tech trade, Thinking about going into something combat arms. Anyone with any knowledge, lemme know!


Thanks!
 

mariomike

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Untamed Spyder said:
I'm RegF and currently a tech trade, Thinking about going into something combat arms.

Depending how far along in your career as an AVS SYS TECH you are, this may, or may not, be of interest,

Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/23075.0
5 pages.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Untamed Spyder said:
Hey, so I am currently in the Air Force and so far, i feel like i don't belong here. I heard its extremely complicated and a very long process to change elements. Anyone have any experience in changing elements? I'm RegF and currently a tech trade, Thinking about going into something combat arms. Anyone with any knowledge, lemme know!


Thanks!

Lots of us have changed elements and MOSIDs in the past.  It is not as complicated as it might seem, but can be daunting if you're quite new to the CAF and how the sea of regulations, policy and orders work.

Judging by your signature block, I'm going to guess you're at CFSATE or something...have you started your QL3 training yet?  You don't have enough time in to apply for the AVOTP (Annual Voluntary Occupational Transfer Program), but there is a possibility you might be eligible to apply for a MOC Reassignment.

Would help more to know where you're at in your training at this time.
 

Untamed Spyder

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Eye In The Sky said:
Lots of us have changed elements and MOSIDs in the past.  It is not as complicated as it might seem, but can be daunting if you're quite new to the CAF and how the sea of regulations, policy and orders work.

Judging by your signature block, I'm going to guess you're at CFSATE or something...have you started your QL3 training yet?  You don't have enough time in to apply for the AVOTP (Annual Voluntary Occupational Transfer Program), but there is a possibility you might be eligible to apply for a MOC Reassignment.

Would help more to know where you're at in your training at this time.


Hey,


I'm currently at CFSCE doing POET. I'm not on my 3s yet. Do i just talk to my CoC about MOC Reassignment or how would that work?
Thanks for the help!
 

Eye In The Sky

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Basically, I recommend you talk to your MCpl/Sgt, whoever you "next up" is a superior, and tell them you are thinking of changing trades and why.  They might try to tell you that you "can't OT, you don't have enough time in".  And they are right...you'd be looking at a MOC Reassignment IAW CFAO 11-12.

Here is a link that has some detail, from the CFAO (CF Admin Order).  https://army.ca/forums/threads/79625/post-754861.html#msg754861

Now, on top of that Order, there was also something that used to be in play called the Basic Training List Admin Guide...for MOC Reassignments, it states this:

Occupation Reassignment
214. Overview Occupation reassignment is roughly equivalent to occupation transfer (OT), except that it applies to personnel on the SUTL or BTL who are not yet occupation qualified in their current occupation. This includes personnel who were previously qualified in another occupation (eg OTs, CFRs, component transfers, etc). While the basic process is very similar to that for OT, there are some specific policies affecting reassignment which are quite different. D Mil C7 is currently the CF occupation reassignment authority for all untrained personnel [I would suspect this has changed...but its not really important who the OR authority is.  Suffice to say, it isn't CFSCE or CFSATE], and executes this responsibility IAW FA direction. Reassignment, like OT, is an integral part of CF retention initiatives and seeks to balance the career choices and aspirations of individual CF personnel with the legitimate needs of the service. CMP (FA) guiding principles in carrying out the procedures outlined below are procedural fairness and consistency.

215. Reassignment Lists

D Mil C 7 releases a monthly message detailing the occupations (both NCM and officer) open for BTL voluntary and compulsory reassignment for that month. For SUTL officers (ie those ROTP, UTPNCM, MOTP and DOTP officers still attending academic studies), there is an annual program conducted each fall for voluntary reassignment. Occupation reassignment lists are developed by D Mil C 7 based on intake requirements and training vacancies for each occupation. For BTL officer and NCM reassignments, the occupations that are considered open (in) are limited to those that have a remaining intake requirement against the Internal SIP for the current fiscal year (FY). The voluntary reassignment lists are further limited to occupations that are seriously under strength (IAW DGPR occupation status list) or are in danger of not meeting minimum training loads. The SUTL reassignment list is based on the remaining production requirement for the projected production year. This is developed from the FY production requirement detailed in the DGPR Statement of Production Requirements with the Long Range Planning Model ratios for ROTP/UTPNCM applied and taking into account any personnel already in the training system. Seriously undermanned occupations may have limited opportunities for voluntary reassignment out of the occupation.

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment

Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated
below:
a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;

e. The trainee shall submit a written request through his chain of command clearly indicating the new MOSID(s) to which he/she is requesting VOR or, if the trainee has no new MOSID in mind and wishes to investigate what other MOSIDs for which he/she may be qualified. In the written request the trainee will clearly indicate what his/her career intentions (release or remain in current MOSID) should the trainee be deemed not suitable for VOR or the trainees decide that the MOSIDs offered are not personally acceptable. Personnel requesting a VOR will not normally be permitted to cease training. However, the Basic Training Manager, in consultation with the Training Establishment, may decide that the trainee will be removed from training if capacity issues and/or administrative or disciplinary problems prove that the trainee is a disruptive influence or otherwise unacceptable presence on the a course.
-----------------------------------------------------

Now, I can't comment on if the BTAGs are the latest and up to date version, etc, however the policy would be something close to that, if not exact.

My recommendation is

1.  inform your CoC ASAP of your wishes and intentions. 
2.  be careful in your wording...you are not requesting an Occupation Transfer, you aren't trained yet.  You are requesting an MOC Reassignment.
3.  If you are sure you don't want to be "what trade you are now"...at the same time you can request they set up an appointment with the Personnel Selection Office to see a Personnel Selection Officer for assessment/consideration for Reassignment.  The PSO office will have all the latest rules and regs and lists that you'll need.
4.  be prepared to put it all in a memo to start a paper trail...your MCpl/Sgt should be able to help you with that.  If they won't...that's a different issue.
5.  expect some resistance and the odd Jedi Mind Trick (you don't want to switch trades...infantry isn't the trade you're looking for) from your CoC.

Need any other advice, come on back.  Oh, and yes, as you aren't trained yet in your MOSID you are on the BTL (not holding a position in a unit yet).
 

Untamed Spyder

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Wow, Thank you very much!!


MCpl have already told me to think more about if i want bad knees in the future, lol. Anyways I will definitely look at writing a memo up and then submitting it. Thank you very much for all the help.
 

mariomike

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Untamed Spyder said:
Anyways I will definitely look at writing a memo up and then submitting it.

If requesting MOC Reassignment, you may, or may not, find these discussions of interest,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=Fl4tWr3nDZyjjwTL6Z2wCQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22MOC+Reassignment%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22MOC+Reassignment%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.120271.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.W88veF-IG1E
 

Eye In The Sky

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Untamed Spyder said:
Wow, Thank you very much!!


MCpl have already told me to think more about if i want bad knees in the future, lol. Anyways I will definitely look at writing a memo up and then submitting it. Thank you very much for all the help.

Like I said, talk to them and ask about a PSO appointment to change trades....not an OT, a reassignment.  You might also hear it referred to as a VOT (U) - Voluntary Occupation Reassignment (Untrained).

I'll also attached a draft version of a DAOD from 2011 that was never signed off, but this also shows the way the VOT policy was going...not sure what the end state with this one ended up, but you'll see the VOT-U stuff in it starting on Page 8.

Not sure if the BTAGs are still in play either and don't have DWAN access at this time, but I'll attach them as well.  Don't discount CFAO 11-12 though...it was still Ref A on the last AVOTP competition message.  That is why I mentioned it and the MOC reassignment stuff.  You'll have to get that on this site (search for it) of from your CoC..CFAOs aren't avail on the internet.
 

Attachments

  • Draft DAOD 5002-OT 12 Oct 2011.doc
    294.5 KB · Views: 275
  • BTL Admin Guide v5 15 Apr 10.pdf
    167.1 KB · Views: 445

Trecr

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Currently putting in a request for Occupational Reassignment. I'm still waiting for DP1, so not eligible for OT. I am wondering what causes most OR/OT to not be accepted. The trade I'm in is no longer red. The trade I'm trying to join currently is red.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Trecr said:
Currently putting in a request for Occupational Reassignment. I'm still waiting for DP1, so not eligible for OT. I am wondering what causes most OR/OT to not be accepted. The trade I'm in is no longer red. The trade I'm trying to join currently is red.

Trade health of the losing/gaining trades is part of it...the other part could be largely what the PSO determines from their assessment.  :2c:
 

Eye In The Sky

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Trecr said:
Currently putting in a request for Occupational Reassignment. I'm still waiting for DP1, so not eligible for OT. I am wondering what causes most OR/OT to not be accepted. The trade I'm in is no longer red. The trade I'm trying to join currently is red.

Part of it is, as you mentioned, trade health of the losing/gaining trades.  The other large piece of the puzzle is likely the PSO determination/assessment of the file.  :2c:
 

Trecr

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Anyone know the length of time I could expect to wait for a response from my VOR request? I'm supposed to go on DP1 in approx 7 weeks. I heard I wouldn't see any progress until July. We have a few people on PAT waiting for VOR's, and some have interviews with the BPSO, others are waiting forever, eventually go on DP1, and go to to regiment without ever hearing back.
 

PuckChaser

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Every case is unique, and there's a lot of factors at play. You're not owed a VOR, and you have put yourself at the mercy of the system. Perhaps you should have put more thought into your trade choices on recruitment, as you had no other options listed other than Crewman.
 

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I am needing a MOC reassignment as well, however, I am unsure how to create the memo. If someone could send me or direct me to a template I would appreciate it. I just finished BMQ and want to do it right. Thank you.
 

mariomike

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Matthard said:
I am needing a MOC reassignment as well, however, I am unsure how to create the memo.

This may, or may not, help,

MOC Reassignment Memo

https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=zTmMW6yNKauPjwS5_6PYCw&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22moc+reassignment%22+memo&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22moc+reassignment%22+memo&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.22879.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.kUWtSkt2fZA
 

Eye In The Sky

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You could also ask your MCpl/Sgt/immediate superior for assistance.  It is part of their leadership function.
 

MNicol

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Hi everyone! (I really hope this is where I’m supposed to post this.)

My name is Meghan and I’m a grade 11 student in Ontario. Like pretty much everyone else in high school, I’d rather not graduate university with a debt that causes me to mortgage my firstborn. The military seems to offer an ideal program, but I want to make sure it’s right for me.

1. If I do a grade 12 co-op, can I then join the Reg forces after it and attend a civilian university at the same time? (It has to be civilian because RMC doesn’t offer the degree that I want.) Would it still be covered by the Paid Education program?

2. Does the degree I get have to match the job I want in the military? For reference, I’d like a degree in Forensics, International Law or Journalism. The only jobs I can see myself doing and doing well in the CF are your basic Infantry Soldier or being an Imagery Technician. (I’d like to be a NCM)

I’m sorry if these are really common questions. I’ve looked around and can’t seem to find any answers to my specific questions.
 

kratz

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Enrolling with a PRes unit during a co-op means you will be doing an OT for Image Tech and CT for both trades you mentioned.

RegF NCM paid education is mostly through an ILP. The key part to this,
is that it must apply to your trade. So a forensics degree would not be approved for an Image Tech.

If you have your heart set on a degree, ROTP at RMC is the only option this FY, except for 8 specified Officer trades.
 
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