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Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)

  • Thread starter cameron_highlander
  • Start date
Onegin said:
Are you sure about this? I had a fellow NCM put in a CT for MARS officer and got accepted. Months later he failed his first trades course but he was not kicked out. Instead he was given the choice of other ''less demanding'' trades. I believe he has since resigned his commission and is in the reg force as a NCM again.

I would say that it is dependent on a lot of factors;  recommendations of the PRB, assessment by the PSO, availability of  vacancies in different officer classifications, CFAT scores and education of the member, suitability of the mbr for aircrew/Plt training (AF1 from AUMB, ASC results, etc).

I doubt there is a single "cookie cutter outcome" for each mbr in a situation such as this.  :2c:
 
Onegin said:
Are you sure about this? I had a fellow NCM put in a CT for MARS officer and got accepted. Months later he failed his first trades course but he was not kicked out. Instead he was given the choice of other ''less demanding'' trades. I believe he has since resigned his commission and is in the reg force as a NCM again.

Your asking about a VOR from an officer occupation assigned at the time of enrolment/transfer to another officer occupation even before attempting training in the first occupation.  If a VOR were to be approved and you happen to be unsuccessful in the 2nd occupation, then your options maybe very limited, if there is an option offered.

Like Eye In The Sky says "there is no cookie cutter outcome", you're at the mercy of available vacancies and or available options.  Your fellow NCM that you quoted above is a classic example.  CT'd into the Reg F as MARS and failed.  But what he is probably NOT telling you or what you are not aware of, is that person was probably not offered VOR to another "officer" occupation and given two options, release or to remain in the Reg F, revert to NCM.  I have seen that "exact" scenario a number of times over the years.

Is it cast in "stone"?  No.  Is it a possible outcome?  From what I have seen, absolutely.
 
I am currently in Basic Training at CFLRS in St Jean Richielieu QC. I am on week 11 with only 4 weeks left before I am off to my next training post. After Basic I am headed to Gagetown for my next training post since I had applied as a Combat Engineer. I am hoping that I can transfer to Aerospace Telecommunication and Information Systems Tech (ATIS) in the Air Force. Everyone I have talked to here at the school said CFLRS doesn't have the admin capacity to do a trade transfer they can only do purple trade element transfers. My question is basically how do I go about this occupational transfer without having to do unnecessary training in Gagetown?
 
CFLRS is able to start the process.  :facepalm:  But if they aren't 'willing', well not much you can do to make them do their job admin-wise.

It is not an OT you are interesting in, it is a MOC Reassignment.  Might seem like nothing, but if you submit a memo requesting a VOT, I can see it being denied as "you aren't eligible IAW CFAO 11-12", which is correct.  MOC Reassignment is the correct avenue and terminology IAW current regulations.

Basically, submit a memo to your CofC requesting a MOC Reassignment to ATIS Tech.  Explain why you want the change.

If someone tries to tell you that you can't request this, send me a PM and I'll assist you.  Having said that, it is a request/application and not a given you will get it.  There are factors that come into play.  Example, did you score high enough on the CFAT for ATIS Tech, etc.  You might have to go to Gagetown and start trg while your application processes, which makes sense as you might not actually get it, right?  Right.

But yes, you can request a MOC Reassignment, IAW CFAO 11-12 and something called the Basic Training List Administrative Guide (BTAGs).

To start off with, one of the important things is to ensure you get your request in and dated before you start your QL3 course, or before you are complete the course. 

From the BTAGs:

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment

Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated
below:

a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;


 
I'm trying to help a new member who I think is getting some bad information.

They've completed basic training in St Jean.  They were on a QL4 course and decided they want to OT to a new trade as they don't think the one they picked just isn't for them.  They are slatted to begin their DP1 course at the end of November and were told by their course staff that  they can't OT until after their DP1 trades course.

That seems wrong to me. It doesn't make sense to send someone on an extensive trades course only to have them OT when they're done; it's wasting a coveted spot on course.

They also asked to speak with a BPSO and were told by their course staff no, which again seems shady to me.

Any advice?
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
I'm trying to help a new member who I think is getting some bad information.

They've completed basic training in St Jean.  They were on a QL4 course and decided they want to OT to a new trade as they don't think the one they picked just isn't for them.  They are slatted to begin their DP1 course at the end of November and were told by their course staff that  they can't OT until after their DP1 trades course.

That seems wrong to me. It doesn't make sense to send someone on an extensive trades course only to have them OT when they're done; it's wasting a coveted spot on course.

They also asked to speak with a BPSO and were told by their course staff no, which again seems shady to me.

Any advice?

Your info doesn't quite make sense to me.  How can you be on a QL4 Crse without having completed DP1?

Anyhow, if the member is NOT DP1/QL3 qualified, then it is referred to as a VOR or COR (Voluntary/Compulsory Occupational Reassignment).  These generally only occur as a result of a training failure during the initial occupation training.  They are rather "frowned" upon, as these are viewed as a means of bypassing "off the street" Recruiting requirements.  (ie; applicant wants to be Occupation A but seeing as A is not available, they take Occupation B, with the intention of trying to change back to Occupation A after completing BMQ)

Unless there are "exceptional" circumstances at play, I don't think these requests are normally entertained.  However, there were plans afoot to look at changing the VOR policy, where members would ONLY be able to request a VOR after completing 25% of their initial occupation training but not more than 75% of the training.  Whether these changes have taken place or not, I have no idea.  I don't think that consulting with the BPSO would produce much of a result and there probably wouldn't be much advice to be had.

Be warned though, in some cases, I have seen the member advised to just "release" and then "reapply" for the occupation they "really" want.  But this issue has also been addressed and members releasing prior to reaching OFP (ie; DP1/QL3) Status, are prohibited from reapplying for a minimum period of 12 months from their release date and then after the 12 months they will still need to obtain a "re-enrolment waiver" which will add more time onto the process.
 
DAA said:
Your info doesn't quite make sense to me.  How can you be on a QL4 Crse without having completed DP1?
Driver wheeled.
Anyhow, if the member is NOT DP1/QL3 qualified, then it is referred to as a VOR or COR (Voluntary/Compulsory Occupational Reassignment).  These generally only occur as a result of a training failure during the initial occupation training.  They are rather "frowned" upon, as these are viewed as a means of bypassing "off the street" Recruiting requirements.  (ie; applicant wants to be Occupation A but seeing as A is not available, they take Occupation B, with the intention of trying to change back to Occupation A after completing BMQ)

Unless there are "exceptional" circumstances at play, I don't think these requests are normally entertained.  However, there were plans afoot to look at changing the VOR policy, where members would ONLY be able to request a VOR after completing 25% of their initial occupation training but not more than 75% of the training.  Whether these changes have taken place or not, I have no idea.  I don't think that consulting with the BPSO would produce much of a result and there probably wouldn't be much advice to be had.

Be warned though, in some cases, I have seen the member advised to just "release" and then "reapply" for the occupation they "really" want.  But this issue has also been addressed and members releasing prior to reaching OFP (ie; DP1/QL3) Status, are prohibited from reapplying for a minimum period of 12 months from their release date and then after the 12 months they will still need to obtain a "re-enrolment waiver" which will add more time onto the process.

Thanks for the feedback.  When the person picked their trade and told me what the recruiter told them about it I was pretty surprised, it sounded like they were fed a line.  The person isn't trying to back door their way into their 1st choice trade (still closed) they've just been doing more research and came to the conclusion it's not for them.  I'll pass this on though!
 
There are 2 ref's that I know of for this;  CFAO 11-12 and the Basic Trg List Admin Guide (BTAGs).  Having said that, there was a draft 5002 series DAOD that was supposed to supersede the CFAO - to my knowledge it still has yet to be signed off, leaving the CFAO as the main ref.  It's not showing on the DAOD site at this time.  Having had some dealing with this kind of issue previously, I can sY I've seen the language/terminology from the draft DAOD used already (example OFP as a pivot point for OT eligibility) however, it is a DRAFT policy not yet signed off.  In the case I know of, this was challenged to the national authority who determined the CFAO remains the proper CAF/National reference. 

- CFAO 11-12:  you're looking for the part about MOC Reassignment.  Technically speaking, you can't "OT" until you meet the CFAO 11-12 requirements but this pers would be seeking a MOC Reassignment IAW the CFAO.  It's very likely the staff don't know or have never heard of MOC reassignments before. 

- Basic Training List Administrative Guide aka BTAGs:  Should be able to find a copy of it in the DIN BTL Management page to confirm if the info below/version is still the current one.

Here's what the BTAGs (v5 dated Apr 2010) say:

Occupation Reassignment

214. Overview
Occupation reassignment is roughly equivalent to occupation transfer (OT), except that it applies to personnel on the SUTL or BTL who are not yet occupation qualified in their current occupation. This includes personnel who were previously qualified in another occupation (eg OTs, CFRs, component transfers, etc). While the basic process is very similar to that for OT, there are some specific policies affecting reassignment which are quite different. D Mil C7 is currently the CF occupation reassignment authority for all untrained personnel, and executes this responsibility IAW FA direction. Reassignment, like OT, is an integral part of CF retention initiatives and seeks to balance the career choices and aspirations of individual CF personnel with the legitimate needs of the service. CMP (FA) guiding principles in carrying out the procedures outlined below are procedural fairness and consistency.

215. Reassignment Lists
D Mil C 7 releases a monthly message detailing the occupations (both NCM and officer) open for BTL voluntary and compulsory reassignment for that month. For SUTL officers (ie those ROTP, UTPNCM, MOTP and DOTP officers still attending academic studies), there is an annual program conducted each fall for voluntary reassignment. Occupation reassignment lists are developed by D Mil C 7 based on intake requirements and training vacancies for each occupation. For BTL officer and NCM reassignments, the occupations that are considered open (in) are limited to those that have a remaining intake requirement against the Internal SIP for the current fiscal year (FY). The voluntary reassignment lists are further limited to occupations that are seriously under strength (IAW DGPR occupation status list) or are in danger of not meeting minimum training loads. The SUTL reassignment list is based on the remaining production requirement for the projected production year. This is developed from the FY production requirement detailed in the DGPR Statement of Production Requirements with the Long Range Planning Model ratios for ROTP/UTPNCM applied and taking into account any personnel already in the training system. Seriously undermanned occupations may have limited opportunities for voluntary reassignment out of the occupation.

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment
Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated below:
a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;

e. The trainee shall submit a written request through his chain of command clearly indicating the new MOSID(s) to which he/she is requesting VOR or, if the trainee has no new MOSID in mind and wishes to investigate what other MOSIDs for which he/she may be qualified. In the written request the trainee will clearly indicate what his/her career intentions (release or remain in current MOSID) should the trainee be deemed not suitable for VOR or the trainees decide that the MOSIDs offered are not personally acceptable. Personnel requesting a VOR will not normally be permitted to cease training.  However, the Basic Training Manager, in consultation with the Training Establishment, may decide that the trainee will be removed from training if capacity issues and/or administrative or disciplinary problems prove that the trainee is a disruptive influence or otherwise unacceptable presence on the a course.

219. PSO Interview/Report

IAW CFAO 11-5 and CFAO 10-1, untrained personnel are entitled to request reassignment within the guidelines established in this document and are to be referred to a PSO as part of that process. However, in cases where the occupation requested is clearly not open for reassignment, the PSO should contact the applicable BTL Manager to determine if the file should be processed. Obviously, the right to request reassignment does not establish a right to have the request granted, nor should it establish an expectation of approval. Normally, a PSO must interview anyone applying for (or being recommended for) reassignment and forward a CF 285 PSO Report to the approving authority.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- IMO the denial of the request to see the BPSO is outside the course staff authority.  Has the mbr asked to speak to the Crse Officer?  If the mbr follows Para 216 above, using the BTAG as the ref, not sure how they can see any other choice; its in black and white.

- I believe the OT/Reassignment function has been passed from D Mil C to DMCPG 3 (or something like that, a different sub-unit of DGMC); I think there was a 2013 or 14 CANFORGEN detailing the passing of the torch from D Mil C to them.
 
What are the rules regarding recruits (at st-jean) speaking to BPSOs in order to get straight answers regarding OTing to a new trade?

I'm trying to assist someone who is a recruit at St-Jean right now. They are half way through their basic training and want to OT do a different trade than the one they originally picked.

They've gotten a lot of mixed advice from course staff such as they aren't allowed to speak to a PSO, they have to wait until they pass their basic training to speak to one, they can only speak to one after they are QL3 qualified.
The same goes with submitting an OT; they can't on basic, they have to wait until they are on their trades course, they have to wait until after the trades course.

Can a recruit submit a memo and ask to speak to a BPSO?  Can a recruit submit an OT during basic training so that they aren't effectively wasting a valuable spot on a QL3 course?
 
Jarnhamar said:
What are the rules regarding recruits (at st-jean) speaking to BPSOs in order to get straight answers regarding OTing to a new trade?

I'm trying to assist someone who is a recruit at St-Jean right now. They are half way through their basic training and want to OT do a different trade than the one they originally picked.

They've gotten a lot of mixed advice from course staff such as they aren't allowed to speak to a PSO, they have to wait until they pass their basic training to speak to one, they can only speak to one after they are QL3 qualified.
The same goes with submitting an OT; they can't on basic, they have to wait until they are on their trades course, they have to wait until after the trades course.

Can a recruit submit a memo and ask to speak to a BPSO?  Can a recruit submit an OT during basic training so that they aren't effectively wasting a valuable spot on a QL3 course?

Although referring to an OT after Basic and at end of IE, this Thread may help with some of the References that MAY apply:

Changing trades after BMQ and contract is up
 
Jarnhamar said:
They've gotten a lot of mixed advice from course staff such as they aren't allowed to speak to a PSO, they have to wait until they pass their basic training to speak to one, they can only speak to one after they are QL3 qualified.
The same goes with submitting an OT; they can't on basic, they have to wait until they are on their trades course, they have to wait until after the trades course.

Can a recruit submit a memo and ask to speak to a BPSO?  Can a recruit submit an OT during basic training so that they aren't effectively wasting a valuable spot on a QL3 course?

Just a little more info here.  I'm assuming the BTAGs haven't been amended recently. 

I don't know that they (technically) couldn't speak to a PSO but it is likely better to do that after BMQ grad as they can't apply for MOC Reassignment until they complete BMQ...and the list of what they can apply for is restricted (BTL monthly reassignment list aka the leftovers).
 
Thanks EITS

This is one of the people I helped get into the CF.  Against my sage advice they were pressured into going into a trade they didn't want by their recruiter.  I expected this to happen and here we are lol
 
Jarnhamar said:
Thanks EITS

This is one of the people I helped get into the CF.  Against my sage advice they were pressured into going into a trade they didn't want by their recruiter.  I expected this to happen and here we are lol

I've read the monthly reassignment list on here recently in another thread...it was pretty slim pickin's.  Now, if it were ME...knowing the mbr is expected to pick from the Reassignment list of the month they apply, and that we're close to the end of the FY, and they are only half way thru BMQ...and considering the BTAGs policy on "before QL3 starts, OR if between 25% and 75% complete" as when they can apply, I'd suggest to them that they don't submit their reassignment request until April or May - that might give them some better choices if the PSO won't budge on the 'they must pick from the BTL Monthly Reassignment list".

Hope they get a fair shot!
 
I recently accepted my offer as an AVS tech and will be going away to BMQ next month. I was wondering if I can change trades at BMQ. Should I let my recruiter know now, or wait till I am at BMQ to put in a request? I am hoping to transfer over to Air Weapons Tech or Supply Tech. Any advice or information will be greatly appreciated.
I want to switch because I feel like I lack the skills and ability to work with electrical components and the training won`t do me much good. (Yes, I realize I should have considered this before I accepted my offer but I waited a long time for my application to go through and jumped at the first offer they gave me)*
 
doublecheeseburgers99 said:
I was wondering if I can change trades at BMQ.

Change of Trades during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/23075.0

remustering during BMQ?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/113425.0

remuster during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/72382.0

Remustering while at BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/37141.0

OT during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/93566.0

Occupational Transfer in BMQ
http://army.ca/forums/threads/94670.0

etc.

 
Hi all, I recently joined as a NCM in a naval reserve unit and got basic training to attend to this upcoming summer.
My question is that after basic training, would i be able to VOT to different element (army,airforce reserve) as an officer, or would I have to finish my QL requirements first as a NCM? If anyone can tell me about the new DAOD, it would be great.
Cheers.

 
OT's are not unheard of prior to QL5 (or DP2 or whatever it's called now) but as far as I know it's not the path of least resistance.

NCM to Officer paths are discussed all over this board.
 
ManBun23 said:
My question is that after basic training, would i be able to VOT to different element (army,airforce reserve) as an officer, or would I have to finish my QL requirements first as a NCM?

This may help,

NCM > Officer,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+ncm+officer&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Rwk5VvPDBKTd8gfD97HoDw&gws_rd=ssl
 
Anyone know the likely hood of switching from EME to Arty officer. Still currently doing BMOQ. I heard in the CAF's state right now they are looking for combat role officers.
 
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