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North Korea (Superthread)

Meanwhile, the US and South Korea both seek a "full accounting" of the sinking of the ROKNS Cheonan last March.

Agence-France Presse link

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US President Barack Obama and South Korea's Lee Myung-bak have spoken by telephone and stressed the need for a "full accounting" of the sinking of a South Korean warship in March, the White House said.
"President Lee provided an update on the status of the investigation into the sinking of the ROK naval vessel Cheonan in which 46 Korean sailors lost their lives," the White House said in a statement.


"The two leaders emphasized the importance of obtaining a full accounting of the event and committed to follow the facts of the investigation wherever they lead."

Plus: "decisive evidence" found?

Agence-France Presse link

SEOUL (AFP) - South Korea has found "decisive evidence" that a North Korean torpedo sank one of its warships after analysing chemical traces found on the wreckage, a media report said Tuesday.

A multinational team investigating the March 26 sinking of the Cheonan is due to report on Thursday.

South Korea has promised a "resolute response" if the North is proved to have been to blame.


"The analysis of metal pieces and traces of explosive recovered from the Cheonan and the seabed led us to secure decisive evidence that there was a North Korean torpedo attack," Yonhap news agency quoted a military source as saying.


The explosive traces have a similar chemical make-up to substances found in a stray North Korean torpedo secured by South Korea seven years ago, the source was quoted as saying.


The defence ministry refused comment before the official announcement on Thursday.


An explosion broke the 1,200-tonne corvette in two near the disputed inter-Korean border with the loss of 46 lives.


Yonhap and other media also said a fragment presumed to be part of the torpedo's propeller had been found
. Dong-A Ilbo newspaper said investigators have concluded the fragment was from a torpedo made in either China or Russia.
 
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/05/18/southkorea-warship-sunk-by-north.html

It is "obvious" North Korea sank one of the South Korea's warships in March, killing 46 sailors, South Korea's foreign minister said Wednesday.

Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan told reporters that investigators have enough evidence of North Korean involvement in the sinking of the Cheonan to take Pyongyang to the UN Security Council.

Yu's comments are the first by a South Korean official clearly pointing the finger at North Korea for one of the worst attacks on the South since the two Koreas signed a truce in 1953 to end three years of fighting.

Asked whether North Korea sank the ship, Yu said: "I think it's obvious." He declined to provide further details, saying the official results of the multinational investigation into the incident would be released Thursday.

North Korea has denied involvement in the sinking of the Cheonan.....

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/05/18/southkorea-warship-sunk-by-north.html#ixzz0oM4FpgF8

Another similar incident:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8685053.stm

South Korea's navy has fired warning shots at a patrol boat from the North, the most serious skirmish since a Southern ship was sunk on 26 March.

Two vessels had violated a disputed border known as the Northern Limit Line, South Korea's military said.

"Two patrol boats crossed on two separate occasions and warning shots were fired," an official said.

Tensions have been high since a South Korean warship mysteriously sank on March 26, killing 46 sailors.

A North Korean patrol boat sailed 2.8km (1.6 miles) into South-controlled waters on Saturday, said Seoul's Joint Chiefs of Staff.

It retreated after a South Korean ship broadcast a warning, reports say.

Read More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8685053.stm

My question is what do North Korea have to gain? it already have enough political leverage to gain resources from the West.

Oh can some move this to the North Korean super thread? Thanks
 
It will be very interesting to watch this play out indeed.

Reproduced under the fairdealings provisions of the copyright act ...

North Korea Denies Sinking Warship

Washington (CNN) -- The president of South Korea has vowed "resolute" measures against North Korea for its alleged attack on a South Korean warship, South Korea's Yonhap News Agency reported Thursday.

A five-country committee announced Thursday morning in Seoul that they had concluded a North Korean submarine fired a torpedo that sunk the South Korea warship in March.

Investigators recovered a propeller from the torpedo that blew the Cheonan in half on March 26, Yoon Duk-yong, the committee's co-chair, told reporters.

The propeller was from the kind of "torpedoes that were exported from North Korea and the letters and the fonts on the torpedo are the are the same that are used by North Korea," Yoon said at a Thursday morning news conference. "This torpedo was manufactured in North Korea."

Yoon said that the investigation found that a small to mid-sized North Korea sub "fired the torpedo that sunk the Cheonan vessel and retreated back to their border."

As the 1,200-ton vessel went down, 46 sailors were lost near disputed waters in the Yellow Sea.

"(We) will take resolute countermeasures against North Korea and make it admit its wrongdoings through strong international cooperation and return to the international community as a responsible member," President Lee Myung-bak told Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd in phone talks, according to Lee's office, Yonhap reported.

North Korea denied torpedoing the warship just as the team of investigators in Seoul unveiled their report.

"We had already warned the South Korean group of traitors not to make reckless remarks concerning the sinking of warship Cheonan of the puppet navy," North Korea's National Defence Commission said in a statement, according to the Korean Central News Agency. "Nevertheless, the group of traitors had far-fetchedly tried to link the case with us without offering any material evidence."

"It finally announced the results of the joint investigation based on a sheer fabrication" the defense commission said, according to the state-run KCNA. The commission called the new report part of a "smear campaign."

The White House backed the report issued Thursday in Seoul, saying it "points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that North Korea was responsible for the attack."

"This act of aggression is one more instance of North Korea's unacceptable behavior and defiance of international law," said a statement by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs. "This attack constitutes a challenge to international peace and security and is a violation of the Armistice Agreement."

President Obama spoke with South Korean President Lee bak on Monday and "made clear that the United States fully supports the Republic of Korea, both in the effort to secure justice for the 46 service members killed in this attack and in its defense against further acts of aggression," Gibbs said.

"North Korea must understand that belligerence towards its neighbors and defiance of the international community are signs of weakness, not strength," Gibbs' statement said. "Such unacceptable behavior only deepens North Korea's isolation. It reinforces the resolve of its neighbors to intensify their cooperation to safeguard peace and stability in the region against all provocations."

The United States has a mutual defense treaty with South Korea and Japan to defend "against any aggression," so if a military confrontation develops, the United States would be responsible for defending South Korea, a U.S. military official said.

"I don't think it will come to that," the official said. "They know they need to have a response, but there is too much at stake for South Korea to have a confrontation on the Korean peninsula. North Korea has nothing to lose, but South Korea is a serious country with a huge economy."

There are military options for South Korea beyond firing missiles, said John Delury, who studies North and South Korea at the Asia Society.

Anything combative would hurt South Korea economically, Delury said, but the country could increase its naval presence along the line that divides South and North Korea in the waters surrounding the countries. He notes that comes with a risk.

"Those actions could trigger a conflict," he noted.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who will visit Seoul next week, will talk with the South Korean government about the investigation, Assistant Secretary Campbell said.

Clinton will also visit Japan and China during her trip, and the North Korean issue is likely to be high on the agenda.

Clinton will have "the closest possible consultations with Japan, China and South Korea about the next phase," Campbell said.

On Monday, President Obama spoke on the phone about the investigation with President Lee.

The president reiterated "the strong and unwavering commitment of the United States to the defense and the well-being of its close friend and ally, the Republic of Korea," a White House statement said about the conversation.
 
I suspect there will be a lot of public posturing and flag waving, but nothing tangible in the way of retaliation will come of it..
 
Jammer said:
I suspect there will be a lot of public posturing and flag waving, but nothing tangible in the way of retaliation will come of it..

Oh, I suspect it will come, but we may not hear about it....North Korea will sure know who did it though...
 
More:


military.com link


NKorea Warns War if Punished for Sinking
May 20, 2010
Associated Press

SEOUL, South Korea -- Tensions deepened Thursday on the Korean peninsula as South Korea accused North Korea of firing a torpedo that sank a naval warship, killing 46 sailors in the country's worst military disaster since the Korean War.

President Lee Myung-bak vowed "stern action" for the provocation following the release of long-awaited results from a multinational investigation into the March 26 sinking near the Koreas' tense maritime border. North Korea, reacting swiftly, called the results a fabrication, and warned that any retaliation would trigger war. It continued to deny involvement in the sinking of the warship Cheonan.

"If the [South Korean] enemies try to deal any retaliation or punishment, or if they try sanctions or a strike on us ... we will answer to this with all-out war," Col. Pak In Ho of North Korea's navy told broadcaster APTN in an exclusive interview in Pyongyang.

An international civilian-military investigation team said evidence overwhelmingly proves a North Korean submarine fired a homing torpedo that caused a massive underwater blast that tore the Cheonan apart. Fifty-eight sailors were rescued from the frigid Yellow Sea waters, but 46 perished.

Since the 1950-53 war on the Korean peninsula ended in a truce rather than a peace treaty, the two Koreas remain locked in a state of war and divided by the world's most heavily armed border.

The truce prevents Seoul from waging a unilateral military attack.

However, South Korea and the U.S., which has 28,500 troops on the peninsula, could hold joint military exercises in a show of force, said Daniel Pinkston, a Seoul-based analyst for the International Crisis Group think tank.

South Korean and U.S. officials also said they are considering a variety of options in response to the warship's sinking, ranging from U.N. Security Council action to additional U.S. penalties.

The exchange of war rhetoric raised tensions, but the isolated communist regime -- already under international pressure to cease its nuclear weapons program -- often warns of dire consequences against South Korea or Washington for any punitive steps against it. Its large but decrepit military would be no match for U.S. and Korean forces
.



The impoverished country is already chafing from international sanctions tightened last year in the wake of widely condemned nuclear and missile tests. U.N. sanctions currently block funding to certain officials and companies, while North Korea is barred from exporting weapons and countries are authorized to inspect North Korean ships suspected of carrying illicit cargo.

South Korea "will take resolute countermeasures against North Korea and make it admit its wrongdoings through strong international cooperation," Lee said during a call with Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, the presidential office said. Lee convened an emergency meeting for Friday.

The White House called the sinking an unacceptable "act of aggression" that violates international law and the 1953 truce. Japanese Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama declared his support for South Korea, calling North Korea's actions "inexcusable."

China, North Korea's traditional ally, called the sinking of the naval ship "unfortunate" but stopped short of backing Seoul.
Pyongyang continued its steadfast denials of involvement in the sinking.

"Our Korean People's Army was not founded for the purpose of attacking others. We have no intention to strike others first," Col. Pak, the naval spokesman, told APTN in the North Korean capital. "So why should we attack a ship like the Cheonan which has no relation with us, no need to strike it and we have no significance in doing so."

North Korea's powerful National Defense Commission warned the South against provocative acts near their border, and urged the U.S. and Japan to "act with discretion," the state-run Korean Central News Agency said in a dispatch monitored in Seoul.

North Korea has waged a slew of attacks on South Korea since the 1950-53 fighting ended, including the 1987 downing of a South Korean airliner that killed all 115 people on board.

Pyongyang has never owned up to the attacks.

North Korea also disputes the maritime border drawn unilaterally by U.N. forces at the close of the Korean War, and the waters have been the site of several deadly naval clashes since 1999.

Detailed scientific analysis of the wreckage, as well as fragments recovered from the waters where the Cheonan went down, point to North Korea, investigators said.

The bending of the ship's keel backs the theory that an underwater torpedo triggered a shockwave and bubble effect that tore the ship apart, the report said.

The report also cites fractures on the main deck, statements from survivors and a sentry on a nearby island, and fractures and lacerations on the remains of deceased sailors.

Pieces of the torpedo "perfectly match" the schematics of a North Korean-made torpedo Pyongyang has tried to sell abroad, chief investigator Yoon Duk-yong said.

A serial number on one fragment is consistent with markings from a North Korean torpedo that Seoul obtained years earlier, Yoon said.

"The evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine," he said. "There is no other plausible explanation."


At Seoul's main train station, scores of people watched raptly as the investigator laid out the evidence against North Korea.

"I'm afraid," said Naima Vela, 26-year-old student from Italy. "I still have a month or two to stay in Seoul and I don't know if I should."

Near the Demilitarized Zone, tourists peered across the border into North Korea.

"As a mother of a boy who is serving his military duty right now, I don't want a war to break out," Jeon Bok-soon said in Paju as she looked across the border into North Korea.

"However if [North Korea] keeps mentioning war, I think we should also show our strong military power," she said.

 
 
I have been reading about the situation in Korea, I printed off the copy of the report  that was issued today (Thurs 20 may 2010 the joint civilian-military investigation group available on the BBC.COM web site) It seem like a closed case.  I only have a question to put out there, It is regarding how these torpedo components were gathered.  "the torpedo parts were recovered at the site of the explosion by a dredging ship"  How do they know it is the same torpedo if no shrapnel was in the ship's hull or the bodies of the crew?  What should be south Korea's responce?
 
China has been quite clear: it wants peace on the Korean peninsula. China is the dominant regional power so its wishes matter.

North Korea will be prevented, by China, from doing anything really stupid. South Korea and the USA must be smart, too.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
China has been quite clear: it wants peace on the Korean peninsula. China is the dominant regional power so its wishes matter.

North Korea will be prevented, by China, from doing anything really stupid. South Korea and the USA must be smart, too.

Yes, but it almost seems like NK is using the "HAHA WE'LL DECLARE WAR IF YOU PUNISH US FOR [allegedly] SINKING ONE OF YOUR SHIPS!!!" card against SK and the US
 
SocialyDistorted said:
Yes, but it almost seems like NK is using the "HAHA WE'LL DECLARE WAR IF YOU PUNISH US FOR [allegedly] SINKING ONE OF YOUR SHIPS!!!" card against SK and the US

That is exactly what they have been doing for years. Question is what happens if ROK calls their bluff? Or at what point does the DPRK aggression and attacks go too far? If the North can torpedo ships from the ROK Navy at will because they threaten all out war... how many ships need to be sunk at the cost of how many lives before war is a "resaonable" option for the South?

Oddball
 
This from koreatimes.co.kr:
The United Nations Command (UNC) in South Korea said Friday that it will begin investigating whether North Korea's torpedoing of a South Korean frigate violated an armistice agreement or not.

The probe comes after the Ministry of National Defense requested the UNC investigate the case after North Korea denied its involvement in the sinking of the South Korean vessel near the West Sea border on March 26.

The disaster killed 46 South Korean sailors.

The UNC and the Neutral Nations Supervisory Commission (NNSC) will team up to "review the findings of the investigation and determine the scope of the armistice violation that occurred in the sinking of the Republic of Korea Ship Cheonan."

The multinational investigation team concluded Thursday that North Korea torpedoed the warship.

North Korea denied the findings, saying it was willing to send a team to the South to see if the evidence was true.

South Korea said the North officially made such an offer to the U.N. Command Military Armistice Commission as the two Koreas technically remain at war.

A government source said North Korea may be allowed to join the investigation if it promises not to take advantage of the probe and is willing to play its part sincerely.

Representatives from South Korea, Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, New Zealand, Turkey, Britain, the United States, Sweden and Switzerland and members of the NNSC will participate in the investigation ....

From the United Nations Command news release (attached)
Now that the ROK-led multinational investigation has concluded, United Nations Command is convening a Special Investigations Team consisting of members from the UNC and the Neutral Nations Supervisory Commission to review the findings of the investigation and determine the scope of the armistice violation that occurred in the sinking of the Republic of Korea Ship Cheonan.

UNC contributing team members include representatives from Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, New Zealand, the Republic of Korea, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States. The NNSC includes members from Sweden and Switzerland.

The team will report their findings to the United Nations.
 
Oh wow!  If the United Nations is on it, you're gonna see some results! 





(surely, nobody takes that seriously)
 
While we wait for the United Nations to hold meetings on the agendas of the upcoming meetings, more serious minds might consider:

http://strategypage.com/on_point/20100511232546.aspx

Winning the Korean Face War

by Austin Bay
May 11, 2010
In late March, an explosion in disputed waters off the Korean Peninsula sank the South Korean corvette Cheonan, killing 46 sailors. This week, investigators concluded a weapon, possibly a German-made torpedo, destroyed the ship.

North Korea deploys mini-subs and commando submersibles that deliver torpedoes with extraordinary stealth, so Pyonyang's strange Stalinist regime has the capability to conduct surreptitious naval attacks and then plausibly deny responsibility.

North Korea has the weapons, and it has intent -- decades of demonstrated intent. For 60 years, North Korea has repeatedly attacked South Korea. The Korean War began 60 years ago this June, and it isn't over, not officially -- an armistice holds combat in tenuous abeyance, not a peace treaty. One wonders if the naval attack isn't an anniversary celebration of a disguised, macabre sort, appealing to the malign psyche of North Korea's dictator, Kim Jong-Il.

The Korean War started with an explosive communist attack that raised the specter of global nuclear war. Now it appears it may end with a communist implosion, one that risks igniting a brief but terrible nuclear conflict in East Asia, should North Korea hit Seoul or Tokyo with a nuke.

Seoul's suburbs lie within range of North Korean artillery. A North Korean fighter-bomber, heading south from communist airspace, will reach Seoul in minutes. South Korea's Samsung Corp. is one of the largest private employers in the Texas county in which I live. This means Pyongyang doesn't need nukes to attack Texas' economy, a fact of life among the 21st century's economically, politically and technologically linked.

Global linkage and Pyongyang's nuclear quest explain the caution stirring this strange twilight of an old war -- caution expressed in Washington, caution followed to the point of kowtow by a South Korean government that hoped the Cheonan suffered a tragic accident.

The South Korean people, however, are outraged, as their government -- if only for its own political survival -- says it is preparing a response.

South Korea must demand reparations for the Cheonan, but if the North fails to comply, what then? Talk does not faze mass-murdering dictators. When Adolf Hitler militarized the Rhineland, the Western allies flinched -- and the Nazis became more audacious. The Rhineland was a strategic probe of allied will. Sinking the Cheonan is a probe of the U.S.-South Korean relationship and ultimately a probe of U.S. President Barack Obama's commitment to mutual defense. His diplomatic track record, and his personality, incline toward appeasement.

South Korea is mulling tough economic and political sanctions. North Korean elites, however, shield themselves from the consequences of sanctions, and any truly effective sanctions regimen requires rigorous Chinese support. Securing firm support is unlikely as long as Beijing sees South Korean and U.S. leadership as too supine for military action.

Covert options include stoking factionalism within North Korea's armed forces and perhaps among Kim Jong-Il's sons. Kim favors his third son. Setting prince on prince is an ancient tool for toppling tyrant kings. South Korea must pursue these fratricidal solutions. They take time, however, and meanwhile, the nuclear clock ticks.

Destroying selected Northern naval facilities by air attack is an option, though this involves striking land targets, which Kim's propagandists would portray as escalation.

Explicit naval tit-for-tat, which exposes and exploits North Korean strategic weakness before a global audience, has more political impact. Seoul and Washington should consider seizing North Korean ships in open waters around the globe. Ships and cargoes could be held pending reparations. In Asia, Pyongyang might route its ships through Chinese and Vietnamese coastal water (paying bribes to local coast guards in the process), but eventually they will encounter the U.S. Navy. The maritime cowards will encounter cameras and appear on YouTube. The Google world will get it.

In the Rhineland fiasco, the Western allies lost face. This Korean confrontation is also about political face, and it's time Kim and his killers lost theirs.

South Korea and the U.S., its closest ally, cannot avoid forcefully responding to the Cheonan attack because it prefigures a more terrible future where a further emboldened, fully nuclear-capable North Korea acts even more brutally.

Also see:

http://newledger.com/2010/05/overthrowing-kim-a-capitalist-manifesto-part-1/

http://newledger.com/2010/05/overthrowing-kim-a-capitalist-manifesto-part-2/
 
More tough rhetoric from the US and its allies against N.Korea. The question now is: what next?

Agence-France-Presse link

US, S.Korea say they will make N.Korea pay for sinking


Fri May 21, 3:21 PM


SEOUL (AFP) - The United States and South Korea vowed Friday to make North Korea pay the price for torpedoing a warship in March, as international anger grew over the attack which claimed 46 lives.



In Tokyo, visiting US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it was "important to send a clear message to North Korea that provocative actions have consequences".


Seoul Defence Minister Kim Tae-Young, a day after investigators reported overwhelming evidence that a North Korean submarine sank the South Korean corvette, said: "North Korea surpassed the limits and for such an act we will make it pay."


At the start of an Asian tour that later Friday took her to Shanghai, ahead of planned stops in Beijing and Seoul, Clinton said she and Japan's Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada agreed the North must end its belligerence towards neighbours.


"We cannot allow this attack to go unanswered by the international community," she said, adding she looks forward to "intensive consultations in China".


The attack on the Cheonan near the disputed border with the North on March 26 sparked outrage and grief in South Korea, but Seoul has apparently ruled out any military counterstrike for fear of triggering full-scale war.

(...)
 
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/23/skorea.ship/index.html?hpt=T2

From CNN. Highlights are my own.

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- South Korean President Lee Myung-bak announced Monday his country is suspending trade with North Korea, closing its waters to the North's ships and adopting a newly aggressive military posture after the sinking of a South Korean warship.

"We have always tolerated North Korea's brutality, time and again," Lee said. "We did so because we have always had a genuine longing for peace on the Korean Peninsula. But now things are different."

"North Korea will pay a price corresponding to its provocative acts," he said, according to an English translation of the speech provided by Lee's office. "I will continue to take stern measures to hold the North accountable."

South Korean military officials on Thursday announced the results of an official investigation into the sinking of the ship, the Cheonan, which concluded that North Korea fired a torpedo that cut the vessel in half.

North Korea has denied that it sunk the warship, which went down on March 26, killing 46 sailors.

In the nationally televised speech Monday morning, Lee said his country was adopting a posture of "proactive deterrence" toward the North, announcing that "combat capabilities will be reinforced drastically" and that he will focus on improving national security readiness and military discipline.

"If our territorial waters, airspace or territory are violated, we will immediately exercise our right of self-defense," Lee said.

Sounds to me like the South is taking a more 'offensive defensive' stance with the DPRK. 
 
Oddball

 
South Korea's strongest response so far was to freeze trade with North Korea.

BBC link


 
  South Korea has suspended trade with the North and demanded an apology, after a report blamed Pyongyang for sinking a Southern warship.

President Lee Myung-bak said those who carried out the attack, which killed 46 sailors, must be punished.

North Korea's main newspaper called the investigation an "intolerable, grave provocation".

The White House endorsed the South's move, and pledged its co-operation "to deter future aggression".

Meanwhile, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has urged China to co-operate with the US on North Korea.

Mrs Clinton told a US-China summit in Beijing that Pyongyang must be held to account for the attack on the Cheonan.

"We ask North Korea to stop its provocative behaviour... and comply with international law," she added.

China is North Korea's closest trading partner and has in the past been reluctant to take tough measures against the communist state.
 
CougarDaddy said:
South Korea's strongest response so far was to freeze trade with North Korea.

BBC link

Phew!! Saying "Sorry" will make it up to the families of the 46 Sailors for sure.  :mad:
 
It was South Korea's ship that was sunk.  It is entirely up to them- not Canada or anyone else- to decide or to seek that which will make them happy in this whole sorry affair.

Now, who was it again that said that ASW was dead?
 
thunderchild said:
I have been reading about the situation in Korea, I printed off the copy of the report  that was issued today (Thurs 20 may 2010 the joint civilian-military investigation group available on the BBC.COM web site) It seem like a closed case.  I only have a question to put out there, It is regarding how these torpedo components were gathered.  "the torpedo parts were recovered at the site of the explosion by a dredging ship"  How do they know it is the same torpedo if no shrapnel was in the ship's hull or the bodies of the crew?  What should be south Korea's responce?

Why would there have to be shrapnel in the hull or in the bodies. A torpedo only has to explode underneath and cause a pressure wave to break a ships keel and send it to the bottom. Much more effective then hitting the ship.
 
Images of the torpedo that was recovered.

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