No delivery to CFB Esquimalt

[X-mo-1979]

Vern, from what I have seen that there is less discipline now in certain places in the CF that there was in say in the sixties and early seventies. A lot of kids these days are mouthpieces and basic doesn't always break them of that (remember the stress cards). This was a hot topic on my ALQ and from our discussions that it occurs in all three elements. I think discipline can be maintained, however sometimes its fine line between what you can do to somebody and what you can't. Some leaders unfortunately cannot see the difference.

It's the places that train them that's to blame.People are too lazy to CB a course to instill discipline because "someone will have to come in".Don't charge them  its too much paper work.I stood in front of a young guy who fired a burst of C-9 ammo (blank) into his peers,I began counselling the youth and was told to "let it go".By a WO.The Course WO.

I have seen the products of today's training system.There are a lot of pure punks.Mouth pieces.

And there isn't much you can do to instill discipline when your higher shuts you down.

Ever try to recourse someone?I have.And he's one of my friends drivers here at the regiment now.
What did I get when I recommended it?"Well what are you doing wrong that this student cannot grasp the info"
(this is after 2 verbal,written, handing him off to another section to get assessed and sent back to me.)

Two jobs I wouldn't want on or around a base,pizza delivery,or cab driver.Cab driver putting up with drunk kids,no thanks.

Lazy higher destroys morale of the instructors,when your students are not performing and then they get off Scott free for the weekend....doesn't instill much discipline does it?Then you tend to not give a heck as no matter what you do all these students WILL pass unless they are released medically.They also talk to all their friends they meet on pat platoon and they tell them "its easy man you don't have to do anything,just stay there."


I no longer work in the training system and hope to god I never do again.

I'm also looked at as the idiot instructor because I tried to do my job instead of being buddies with the students as some others did.

Oh and I almost forgot.Please give me a first person example/written confirmation document on the stress cards.I call B/S.

 

[Hawk]

OK, I'm well out of the loop here. Stress card? What the he**'s  that? I seriously need a definition/description.

It would be so easy nowadays. Do you mean that now I could mouth off to a higher rank and get away with it? When I was in, if you even looked like you wanted to - all hell broke loose!

Hawk

 

[X-mo-1979]

No it's a rumour fabricated by people with many years in to describe how easy things are getting.I have never met anyone who personally seen these used.And have never seen anything on it ever being implemented.

 

[armyvern]

No it's a rumour fabricated by people with many years in to describe how easy things are getting.I have never met anyone who personally seen these used.And have never seen anything on it ever being implemented.

They were used at CPC -- now you have.    Mind you, they sure as hell didn't last long there.

I dunno Stoker ... seems to me that every single time I'm B Duty around these parts -- we've got defaulter/CBd pers on the books. My most was 7 .. that's right 7 on defaulters. It still happens -- a lot. I guess it's what Base you're at. Given that I'm at the largest Army Trg Base the CF's got, I guess we're breaking out of them what basic isn't these days.

There's still mouthpieces in the CF?? That's shocking -- there's still a little charge called insubordination to deal with that though. The CF really needs to get rid of the excuses and just start "doing" again.

 

[ModlrMike]

The CF really needs to get rid of the excuses and just start "doing" again.

I couldn't agree more, Vern. Both the troops and supervisors need to accept that discipline exists for a reason. I think that too often, supervisors try to be friends with their troops instead of being their leaders. As I tell my NCOs... it says in my PDR that I'm to be firm, fair, and friendly. Nowhere does it say I have to be your friend.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

They were used at CPC -- now you have.    Mind you, they sure as hell didn't last long there.

I dunno Stoker ... seems to me that every single time I'm B Duty around these parts -- we've got defaulter/CBd pers on the books. My most was 7 .. that's right 7 on defaulters. It still happens -- a lot. I guess it's what Base you're at. Given that I'm at the largest Army Trg Base the CF's got, I guess we're breaking out of them what basic isn't these days.

There's still mouthpieces in the CF?? That's shocking -- there's still a little charge called insubordination to deal with that though. The CF really needs to get rid of the excuses and just start "doing" again.

I had 3 as CFSME Duty NCO, the most I've seen was a whole course. Now that was funny 30 pers sweeping the concrete pad over by the water tower  ;D

 

[Roy Harding]

As I recall from this thread:  http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/59948.0.html , there are apparently some good strong POs, Chiefs, and Officers still in the Navy (the ones posted in in the aftermath of the HMCS Saskatoon drug problems - specifically CPO1 Hearns).

Perhaps a few of them need to be posted to the various establishments being discussed here to get a grip on the local chain of command, who in turn will get a grip on the various insubordinate SOBs that are running around.


Roy

 

[Stoker]

Where I work I have seen people not charged because no one wants to do "the paperwork" on a guy. If the person is charged, they're slapped with a couple of hundred dollars fine that's not much of an deterrent to a 19 year old that makes 40 grand a year. Now bring back birds and other means of punishment or jam a persons leave in a fun port, that's seems to work better. I personally like making my problem children do a bilge crawl and fish out all the tools we have dropped, after doing that a couple of times they usually start listening >

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Where I work I have seen people not charged because no one wants to do "the paperwork" on a guy. If the person is charged, they're slapped with a couple of hundred dollars fine that's not much of an deterrent to a 19 year old that makes 40 grand a year. Now bring back birds and other means of punishment or jam a persons leave in a fun port, that's seems to work better. I personally like making my problem children do a bilge crawl and fish out all the tools we have dropped, after doing that a couple of times they usually start listening >

Is this something confined to the Navy? What is it?

 

[Stoker]

Is this something confined to the Navy? What is it?

Birds - Slang for being confined to the ship or base- We still do it occasionally however the old "birds" in days gone by usually had the person confined at cells at the MP shack, wearing green coveralls and doing really dirty jobs. They usually had them march into the galley, get their meals and back to cells. Now people don't really get it too often here, and it consists of musters, inspections and cleaning stations.

 

[Hawk]

I remember Birds! Haven't heard that for YEARS!!! When they marched into the galley everyone folded their hands up into their armpits and flapped their arms and squawked!! The WREN  version (they couldn't put us in cells) was 2 hours extra work and drill each day - weeding flower beds, dusting above every door jam in the block, polishing wax cans if there was nothing else for us to do, plus confined to block in off-duty hours.  I was on Birds - - - a few times. Hey, I was no angel, but not a Queen's Hard Bargain, either  >  Didn't hurt a bit, and usually taught me not to do THAT again!

Birds is where I got my idea of grounding for my son when he was young. Grounding meant slave, and he painted, weeded, cleaned out the basement, polished the truck. It didn't hurt him either  ;D

Hawk

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

When I was first in Esquimalt (77-81) the pizza guys used to come right down to the jetty and deliver to the Brow. How times have changed. It sounds like a bad apple has spoiled it for the rest. Discipline is a nasty word in our world today and there are way too many officers and NCOs who would rather look the other way than sort someone out. Many I've talked to as well are not willing to risk a retaliatory "harassment complaint." My experience of disciplining is that if it's done fairly and according to the regs it works just fine.

 

[geo]

Cheech!

I'm very much with Vern and the rest of the Army on this subject.

A wee bit of discipline goes a long way.  AND if the occupants of a block are course candidates, it should be even easier to get a grip and maintain same said grip on the candidates.

 

[1feral1]

I am sure there is more than one place to order a pizza from.

 

[Flip]

I wonder what the driver did to recieve the alleged abuse?

Just a civvie thought. 

I know.........doesn't matter.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I wonder what the driver did to recieve the alleged abuse?

Just a civvie thought. 

I know.........doesn't matter.

Very possibly nothing at all.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Birds - Slang for being confined to the ship or base- We still do it occasionally however the old "birds" in days gone by usually had the person confined at cells at the MP shack, wearing green coveralls and doing really dirty jobs. They usually had them march into the galley, get their meals and back to cells. Now people don't really get it too often here, and it consists of musters, inspections and cleaning stations.

Cheers Stoker.

 

[Roy Harding]

Very possibly nothing at all.

Very PROBABLY, nothing at all.  Just tried to deliver a pizza.

Regardless - sailors who are expected to maintain their equilibrium and calm under the most trying of circumstances should be above whatever provocation may have been offered by a "pizza man".

 

[TN2IC]

I remember Birds! Haven't heard that for YEARS!!! When they marched into the galley everyone folded their hands up into their armpits and flapped their arms and squawked!! The WREN  version (they couldn't put us in cells) was 2 hours extra work and drill each day - weeding flower beds, dusting above every door jam in the block, polishing wax cans if there was nothing else for us to do, plus confined to block in off-duty hours.  I was on Birds - - - a few times. Hey, I was no angel, but not a Queen's Hard Bargain, either  >  Didn't hurt a bit, and usually taught me not to do THAT again!

Birds is where I got my idea of grounding for my son when he was young. Grounding meant slave, and he painted, weeded, cleaned out the basement, polished the truck. It didn't hurt him either  ;D

Hawk

I have to admit I have seen a PUP once here. But I seen a few defaulters in Gagetown. Makes you think.

 

[armyvern]

I have to admit I have seen a PUP once here. But I seen a few defaulters in Gagetown. Makes you think.

I love being on duty and having defaulters to watch over. It's the best babysitting job the CF has. The weeds of the J7 sidewalk disappear, the flower beds look awesome ... and I get to use my outside drill voice in a nasty and fun way (to which I usually hear rumblings of "OMG -- that's a girl!!) !! All of which contributes to making the duty go by quickly. Inspecting thier uniforms and DB rooms is also quite fun -- especially when one of them decides to crawl onto his bed and fall asleep ... too exhausted to report to me on the hour for his DEU inspection -- and I get to go drag his ass OUT of that bed!!  >