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No Canadian helocopters in Afghanistan; 30 Aug 07 - Sen Kenny calls for this to change.

Loachman, I think we'll have to have differing views on this one...UK AAC has Lynx in theatre now, challenging but doable, especially when biased towads night ops.  Griffon actually has more cap than the Lynx.  A bud of mine is exchange with the AAC as their Lynx Det Comd, his opinion would be close to mine.  Personally, I think putting in any capability that supports the boots on the ground is well worth the effort.  Not to get into details, but I know that there are some options being considered that would be sustainable and meaningful.  As I've said in other threads...I'd go back to the sand box in a heartbeat, especially in a cockpit and leading some of the finest men and women the AF has to offer!  Huah!  :salute:

Cheers,
Duey
 
Which is why I highlighted my lack of currency and bias - gained honestly during the early days of the equipping of 400 Sqn. I also deal (try to, at least) almost daily with the lack of serviceable and available machines. Granted, that's not necessarily the fault of the machine and there are many factors but I'd have to be severely convinced that a deployment would be doable and worthwhile.

Is Lynx being used in a utility role or recce role?

I could accept the latter role for the CH146, but then there are obvious equipment and training issues to be resolved first.
 
Loachman said:
Which is why I highlighted my lack of currency and bias - gained honestly during the early days of the equipping of 400 Sqn. I also deal (try to, at least) almost daily with the lack of serviceable and available machines. Granted, that's not necessarily the fault of the machine and there are many factors but I'd have to be severely convinced that a deployment would be doable and worthwhile.

Is Lynx being used in a utility role or recce role?

I could accept the latter role for the CH146, but then there are obvious equipment and training issues to be resolved first.

Yup...ack that (recce bit.)  Folks should keep in mind there's a difference between "light utility" (like Lynx is doing along with recce, tac security, convoy FP, etc...) and "tactical mobility".  Griffon could easily do what Lynx is primarily doing today.  Lynx should have EO-IR capability in theatre shortly.  Currently it does both recce and utility, but recce is limited to portable sensor solutions (as in stab-binos).  UK AAC is working at getting fleet fitment "for" on all its battlefield utility aircraft in concert with the RAF (as it turns out, the L3 Wescam MX-15, like was selected for the now-defunct CH146 ERSTA programme).    EO-IR could be put on the Griffon in less time than it would take guys to get up to speed on TTPs. 

At the end of the day, it's more a question of people high enough up the food chain being willing to support the actual fitment of the aircraft with the relatively simple-to-add (but harder to do the paperwork) sensor equipment than it is whether the aircraft can provide meaningful support or not.

Mein swei centen...

Cheers,
Duey
 
they mounted light machine guns for gulf war 1 in seakings, why not do the same for the ch146, at least they  could fly over the troops and over some fire support and protection while on patrol with the god issued c1a2 standard issue eye balls?
add some night vision or plain old day time glasses and it would be better then nothing . they could always help fly in supplies and fly out the wounded or fly in extra troops?
but i know i am way out of my lane but just asking
 
Everything that you just suggested for the -146 they currently have and use.  There is a C-6 mount for the FE and flying on NVGs is the forestay of our tac-hel brethren.
 
TACHEL has way better NV system that the ground forces (which is how it should be BTW)

I will defer everything to Duey though as no doubt soone he will be back here flying  8)
 
ANVIS-9 kicks butt over anything we flew with before!  When I first started flying NVG's in '90, they were cut-rate US ANVIS-5 (our name AN/AAQ-501(A)) that gave us about 20/40(45) vision.  The ANVIS-9's we use today can give you 20/20 equivalent vision when set up properly.  You can see small branches and leaves on trees that you couldn't see a decade and a half ago.  My default for avn ops in AFG would be night time, with an extremely good reason for flying in the day (CASEVAC being one of them.)  We are actually looking at a range of weaponry to fit to the Griffon in AFG, C6 (MAG58 / M240B/G) is of course current fitment, and a very potent, aimable gun system.  We're also looking at systems such as GAU-16 Mini 5.56 and the GAU-21 M3M .50 (hi-rate M2) as well as the good old CRV-7 and newer variants of it. 

It'll be  ahorse race to see who gets to theatre first, Griffon or Chinook (if we in fact get some loaners, otherwise it'll be Griffy for sure methinks....just a long as the CH147A contract is in place, then higher-ups will breath a sigh of relief and allow Griffon in)

Cheers,
Duey
 
I have a set of ANVIS-9 (grounds -- it has a different battery pack setup from the A/C  version)  --- very sweet to say the least.

The GAU-16 would be my fav for a point defence setup -- I've seen some of the USSOC Hummer with them -- pretty potentant in close.




 
Any thought given to the underbelly mounted mini-gun available on the old Kiowa? Is that not an option on the Griffon?

Cheers
 
The MiniTAT (Tactical Armament Turret) was not a weapon, it was an anchor. Had anybody put one on my Kiowa in a real war situation, I'd have pickled it (accidentally) over the nearest lake.

Stowed, it hung just inboard of the left-hand skid about an inch or so above the ground - not good on soft ground during sloppy seasons or winter. Deployed, it hung a couple of feet below the skids along the hel's centreline. This caused most guys to fly about ten feet higher than normal in order to avoid snagging it on fences, shrubbery, and livestock - not good, when the tactical situation required one to follow every little fold in the ground (our minimum tactical altitude was "skids clear of ground). The thought of sustaining an engine failure at low altitude with gun deployed was not comforting either, but this did not happen until shortly before the Kiowa's unfortunate demise. I can't remember the details, but the gun ripped off with no harm done to the crew.

The standard 7.62 mm Minigun on this mount was de-rated to two rates of fire - 750 and 1500 RPM. It was fired in the fixed forward position by the trigger on the pilot's cyclic or by a pantograph sight and trigger unit mounted to the observer's door post (left hand side), in which mode it was fully flexible. The observer, however, usually had a lap and both hands full of maps, CEOIs, codes, stab or regular binos, aides-memoire, and other clutter (while navigating, talking on two radios, and watching out for hazards). By the time that he was able to recognize that his hel was under fire, determine where it was coming from, drop whatever he was holding, grab the trigger unit, and get the gun into action the pilot would already have done a 180 and headed back to cover - ten feet too high.

The site was a plastic disc with faint soap-bubble-rainbow-like coloured rings. It was not designed for accuracy, and neither was the MiniTAT. Rounds would spew everywhere. We would set out runs with standard target balloons at the start of a week-long range practice and never have to replace any. Most would survive the entire week.

The MiniTAT with full 1100 round ammo load (five standard belts linked and contained in a long box across the back seat) brought the Kiowa up to max gross weight, plus or minus a few rounds, with full fuel and crew of two. This was significant in an already underpowered machine. Certain engines seemed to develop less power than they should (manifested by running hot) despite the best efforts of our techs. I had one of those one hot July day in Pet and could not pick up into a hover with a heavier observer and full fuel. Needless to say, agility - an important factor in one's survival and effectiveness - suffered tremendously.

"Effective" range officially was 1200 m. but really more like a few feet. Tactical bounds were often a couple of k or more, which negated the option of fire and movement. Not even having the range to reach one's No 2 when moving, let alone somebody engaging him from his front, is useless at best.

The value of a 7.62 mm MG on a thin aluminum-and-Plexiglas machine operating on a mechanized battlefield against masses of heavy armour with stuff up to 125 mm was zero, and, as stated, the additional weight made one a better target.

The long flexible ammo guide to the flexible gun was not ammo friendly and frequently caused stoppages.

While I miss the Kiowa and its role, I do not miss the MiniTAT.

There was, however, one area where I thought it useful - northern Norway. There are only a couple of roads running the length of a narrow country that the Russians would have had to try and jam four or five divisions down. These wound along fjords and valleys and through restrictive passes. Off-road movement for much of the year was dicfficult at best because the ground was rocky, boggy, of covered in deep snow, often all three at once, and weather was highly unpredictable and variable. Ski patrols were common along the parallel valleys, for recce, OP, and FAC purposes. Determining friend from foe was relatively simple - direction of movement was obvious from the ski and pole marks (ski tracks themselves were very easy to find), and webbing contrasted nicely against white cam for confirmation, and had distinctive patterns. It was the only time where I outgunned my enemy, didn't have to worry about flying a little higher, and got a slight performance boost from the colder air. And, on the first exercise that I was there for, there were lots of enemy helicopters that I could jump out and yell "BOO!!" at.

The gun itself is good; the problems were solely with the mount and its application to an unsuitable platform.

Regardless of that, its only useful application in a tac hel environment is as a close-in defensive weapon and I do not really see any great advantage over the C6, which is simple and reliable and for the most part uses standard parts. The Minigun is only useful if one is going to emply it at its higher rates of fire, with the attendant greater appetite and consequent weight penalty.

Prior to Afghanistan, I was opposed to attempting to mount an offensive gun on a utility helicopter such as the CH146 with its lack of survivability features. I believe firmly that the weight penalty outweighs the tactical value of a gun regardless of practicably-mountable calibre, although I would of course do my best to keep an open mind. In a shoot-out between an armoured vehicle able to adopt a hull-down and concealed position and an unarmoured hel having to be fully exposed in order to fire, with both armed with cannon of similar or identical calibre, the ground-based vehicle clearly has the advantage. Missiles such as Hellfire, or some of the newer 2.75 in rocket versions, are the only way to go. Our current situation changes that - something around 25 mm and fully stabilized would be most worthwhile. Even .50 cal would be okay - but one definitely needs to be able to stay well out of 7.62 mm and RPG range.
 
G'Day,
The DEA in Kandahar are using UH-1Ds for poppy eradiaction...they don't sem to have a prob flying in hot/high conditions. From my experience there it would sure be nice to be able to rely on our own lifts to where we neen to be, instead of taking a number.
Goin' back in a couple of weeks to beg borrow and steel a seat on a shithook or 'hawk. Gotta love the '64s though...nice to have them when you need 'em
 
You're welcome, Whiskey601. The MiniTAT was one of my major pet peeves. Our last CDS was CO of 444 Sqn for my last two years there. He vowed to get MiniTATs in Germany (we were the only Reg F Sqn that didn't have them - no suitable ranges was the common reason given). It didn't happen, thank f.

He's another of my pet peeves, for that and many other reasons.

How much fuel are those UH-1Ds carrying, Jammer, and how many guys and how much cargo? It makes a difference.
 
From what I was able to see (on the sly of course).
2X pilots, 1X FE
Approx 3X 50gal drums of ??? incl spray eqpt.
 
If you're thinking of using the Griffon for a utility role in Afghanistan, then I think that is the wrong role for it.  Recce could be done with the equipment that we currently have, such as the FLIR, NVGs, and plain old eye ball.  However, I wish ERSTA would be stood back up but I don't think you'll see this happen until (or ever) the issue of what we're going to do with the numbers of 146's is resolved when the Chinook comes in.  If Griffons are sent over, I could see maybe three 6 month rotos max until no one is left to support it.  With 427 essentially out of the picture now, only 408 and 430 would primarily be left, with augmentation from 438 and 400.  I would not send 403 over as this wasn't exactly a good idea the last time it was done due to the impact on trg for the pilots and FEs.
Pt is, Griffon can function in Afghanistan for certain roles, just like ATAC taught me, but not very good for utility role as compared to other helos, such as the Chinook.

Man, I miss Tac Hel.......  :'(

Does anyone think that having a Griffon would have helped provide cover for the patrol that was recently hit and two of our boys were killed?  Do you think that they would have been able to warn the patrol that someone was coming up behind them?
 
Its not just the DEA -- DynCorp's Airwing (which runs both DOS and DEA air here) are flying them amongst others (Italians are flying a 212 variant as well)  Some of the Dyn Birds I have seen have 6 shooters -- 2 x M60 or M240 for aerial gunnery and crew.

 
I saw a pic a while back of a Griffon (yes a Canadian Griffon) with Hellfires  and a 20mm gun - the complete weapon system was apparently not installed, just an aerodynamic test maybe?  Anyways, does anyone know what became of this?  Duey?  Anyone?  Bueller?Anyone?
 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/46992/post-411833.html#msg411833

Try this link Mud.  Is this the one you were thinking of?  Originally posted by Duey on this thread last week.
 
That was just a picture and nothing else.  The a/c was just mounted with this stuff, not officially I might add, and never took off.  There was and may still be an idea to arm the Griffon and make it an "Armed Helo", but this has never really taken off within 1 Wg or the Air Force.  When I say armed, I'm not refering to the C6 or the flares that are currently on the Griffon.  Duey will probably have more info on this as to where the picture was taken, but once again, the a/c never flew with it.
 
There was once an official - perhaps not so much plan as dream - of carrying through ERSTA to a fully armed version. It was rather contingent upon upgrading to UH-1Y standard. The odds back then were considered less than slim too.

There is still life in the recce role today. A wandering demo of a Wescam system was recently conducted by 438 ETAH. The visit to LFCA impressed at least a few key senior officers.

It's a much better concept than UAVs for close(r) recce as the field of view is much greater - the whole crew are looking out and can spot something suspicious which can then be investigated. I picked up most of the "contacts" that we found on our own while I was doing the police helicopter thing a few years ago, purely because the police observer was concentrating on the thermal imager (as he should have been) while I was checking the wider area. The UAV misses that but, yes, has its niche to fill and both have their place.

Could such a capability have made a difference a few days ago? Maybe, maybe not. Certainly wouldn't have hurt, though.
 
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