No Canadian helocopters in Afghanistan; 30 Aug 07 - Sen Kenny calls for this to change.

[Good2Golf]

George, the Griffon's mast is about as big as you could reasonably design without making it relatively stronger than several other components.  Scoobs is right that for the rotor system of the 412, the mast (along with the glass-fibre blades) principally limits how much power you can apply to the main head...if you added more, however, you would have to beef up other components along the way. 

Not sure if everyone caught the nuance of a single power-pac that is actually made by twinning two separate engines into a unified power pack.  There are actually two PT6 turbines add their power together in a combining gear box (CBOX) which is then output from the power pack into the main transmission.  The main transmission only sees a single input shaft and doesn't really care where the power is coming from, just that there is enough to balance off the aerodynamic loads of the blades to keep the drive system from slowing down (i.e. rotor from "drooping") The PT6 Twin Pac turbine system can in most conditions still provide much more power than the Bell 412's dynamic system is capable of reasonably absorbing...what this means is that by down-rating the engines, they will actually operate much more reliably and with fewer problems -- kind of like using only 50-60% max power of the engines in normal operation.  OEI (one engine inoperative) will max out a single engine (which on its own could provide up to ~71% of the main transmission requirements)...and in some extreme cases (we're talking like 60*C) may actually put the combined power sections near the upper combustion/exhaust component temperature limit.

Frankly, I think the weakest link (in terms of how close a component's actual strength compared is to its minimum design load limit requirement) is the tail structure...specifically the fin, and some of the tail rotor components.  I scared the crap out of myself once by playing "door kicker" once in the back of the chopper and took a look back at the tail rotor when the guys up front were pulling into the flare to insert the guys....   Note to self: don't look at how much the skin wrinkles on the inboard side of the tail fin...eeeks!

Scoobs, arriving in weeks few...stuff to clean up in current life.  No, I missed crossing paths with you while you were up in the "Den".  See you at the next Gathering! 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Scoobs]

Duey,

not scare you or anything, but that is a common area in the vertical stab where we find problems with the internal support structure or we find rivets popping.  Look for black powder around the rivets.  This is a tell-tale sign for worn rivets.  If this scares you, I guess you wouldn't want to see the rotors through a high speed camera!  Can you say flapping like a bird! 

All the best Duey, I've got to get offline and go prepare a lesson for tomorrow.

Scoobs.

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's another question for you Duey, all that gucci kit that they have hung onto the 407 for the ARH programme, couldn't the same stuff but more of it be hung from the 412s/Griffons?

http://www.helinews.com/multicomparison.shtml
http://www.helinews.com/turbinecomparison.shtml

The rough numbers on the above sites would seem to indicate that the 412EP has about twice the useful load of the 407 and yet they are talking about the 407 lifting its FLIR gear and up to 2x19 70mm packs.  Why couldn't our existing 412s lift that and 7.62 minigun?  Or was that part of the ERSTA programme that got canned?

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

if he's refering to the Griffon they are hardly new.

I was in Goose Bay when they delivered the first one to triple 4 San......1995. I guess by Sea King standards they are new!! :

 

[Good2Golf]

Here's another question for you Duey, all that gucci kit that they have hung onto the 407 for the ARH programme, couldn't the same stuff but more of it be hung from the 412s/Griffons?

http://www.helinews.com/multicomparison.shtml
http://www.helinews.com/turbinecomparison.shtml

The rough numbers on the above sites would seem to indicate that the 412EP has about twice the useful load of the 407 and yet they are talking about the 407 lifting its FLIR gear and up to 2x19 70mm packs.  Why couldn't our existing 412s lift that and 7.62 minigun?  Or was that part of the ERSTA programme that got canned?

We looked at putting anything from M2 .50, GAU-19A .50, 30mm low-recoil, AGM-114K Hellfire, CRV-7, etc... anything that hooks to a NATO std 14" lug and uses a controller that is compatible with a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus...

I'll dig up the picks we had taken when we arranged things years ago as the Griffon was starting to come into service (97-ish).  To some degree, it was part of the ERSTA effort, but was technically a separate, although related capability.

 

[Rescue Randy]

If I read all this correctly, there is no apparent technical or doctrinal reason why the Griffon is not deployed at this time.  It appears that we need helo support, and it is at least as capable as some machines currently serving in the region.  The conclusion that I am drawing is that the CF does not want to use the Griffon - the obvious question is "why not"?

 

[George Wallace]

Money!  The Tasking came down from the Government to DND, who only had so much monies from the Government to do the job.  DND and NDHQ then draw up a plan of what they need there manpower and equipment wise.  They start off with a 'Wish List' of what they think they will need ideally, and then start chopping the 'luxuries' off until they can afford the mission with what money they have been allotted by the Government.

It is not like the Military of Canada has money growing on trees and can put what they want into every mission that the Government sends them on.  They are limited by their budget.  I am sure that DND would like to have a whole Sqn of Coyotes, perhaps a whole Armd Regt; a full Arty Bty or more; a full Bn of Inf; an Engr Sqn, a Service Bn; as well as the existing tail in the NSE; and also Air elements to provide 'Lift' and 'Support'; but alas there is not enough budgeted for this, nor the manpower or equipment to sustain it.  That is why you don't see any helicopters, CF 18's, Leopard tanks, and more over there.

Money.

 

[GAP]

This just in from the Pak Tribune regarding the British difficulty with helicopters in the Sandbox

British troops facing air supply crisis in Afghanistan
Thursday July 06, 2006 Pak Tribune
http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=149015

KABUL: British forces in Afghanistan are facing a supply crisis because nearly half of their helicopter transport fleet is unable to fly in daylight hours due to the searing Helmand heat.
The 3,300 British troops in the south rely on six Chinook and four Lynx aircraft for all transport and supply. The extreme heat and thin, rising air of the Helmand desert has limited the Lynx, an attack and utility helicopter, to use between dusk and dawn, when temperatures fall to acceptable levels, military sources confirmed.

Captain Drew Gibson, the British military spokesman with the Helmand force, declined to comment on the Lynx problems, citing "operational reasons".
More on Link

 

[Good2Golf]

We looked at putting anything from M2 .50, GAU-19A .50, 30mm low-recoil, AGM-114K Hellfire, CRV-7, etc... anything that hooks to a NATO std 14" lug and uses a controller that is compatible with a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus...

I'll dig up the picks we had taken when we arranged things years ago as the Griffon was starting to come into service (97-ish).  To some degree, it was part of the ERSTA effort, but was technically a separate, although related capability.

As promised...

 

[GO!!!]

As promised...

I call Gunner!!

But seriously, it was mentioned earlier that "political considerations" are the only thing holding the Gryphon back from an Afghanistan deployment, that there is no doctrinal or technical reason NOT to deploy them.

Can anyone elaborate on this?

 

[Kirkhill]

And she could lift like that Duey?

Amaaaazing.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thanks for the explanations, so what is the difference between a 212 and a 214, I was in Venezuela in 94 where they were using 214’s to lift drill rigs. They were powered by P&W 1875 shaft HP engines if I recall correctly, the main complaint was that the engines were not the “hot and high” required for the hot and high conditions of the area.

Perhaps this government could be convinced that we should bring our current helo’s into the mix in addition to the support we receive from our allies currently.

 

[Popurhedoff]

Duey,

Looking forward to seeing you in the Den. 

Cheers
Pop

 

[Good2Golf]

And she could lift like that Duey?

Amaaaazing.

Not cleared for flight or permanent fitment, but what you see (plank, GAU-19A .50, LR30 [ a 30mm version of LAV's 25], and Hellfire) would have weighed about 1300 lbs, or about the equivalent of 5 soldiers with kit (note: 1300 lbs including the loaded .50 ammo bin just out of view and 2 x AGM-114 Hellfire on the other side as well).  This would require a tac fuel load (around 45-60 mins on station for CAS) but it would definitely kick some butt.  Many (most?) higher-ups in the Air Force were not at all supportive of seeing any teeth go on the Griffon.  If you think inter-arm rivalry is something in the Army....you guys don't have anything on the Air Force..."I'm sorry, you're not a Hornet or Aurora you say?  Can't help you...stay in your lane, no weapons for you"  :

Colin, a 214 is a big beast...Blackhawk-sized.  Originally made for the Iranian Air Force when the Shah was still in power...it uses GE CT7 turboshafts, same engines as the Cormorant, essentially civy variants of the T700 military turboshaft used in Blackhawks and the new Super Hueys and Cobra's. 

GO!!!  Correct, there is neither any doctrinal nor any technical reason why Griffon cannot be in AFG right now...  I'll leave it up to others more qualified in assessing political exigencies to discuss same...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[aesop081]

I'm sorry, you're not a Hornet or Aurora you say? 

Duey, The Aurora has no friends in today's air force.  PM me if you want to hear the latest, i'll get back to you when i get home from RIMPAC

 

[civmick]

I thought the -18s couldn't go to Afstan due issues with comms.  I have a dim recall of reading something like that when NATO went in.  Has that been fixed or could they have gone any time?

 

[Good2Golf]

Duey, The Aurora has no friends in today's air force.  PM me if you want to hear the latest, i'll get back to you when i get home from RIMPAC

Aesop, except for a few "electric golfball" types...a big one of whom really counts in the "protecting Aurora" corner.  I think the MP communities error was in not getting on board the ISR train before now.  I wrote a Capability Deficiency paper on the Aerospace Systems Course over ten years ago as to why the CP140 should have a self-defence suite (SDS) and was told by my course director "what does a tac hel guy know about maritime patrol...stay in your lane."  I was pressured to change my topic, but resisted, wrote on CP140 SDS anyway and was given a C- on my paper.  If the guy were still in, I'd send him a copy of my paper again and asked him what he thought about my 1995 paper now... :

Pop, see you in a few weeks...'pop'ed (uugh, bad joke, I know) up earlier this week to get some resource issues worked out...will see you guys in a bit!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[GO!!!]

I thought the -18s couldn't go to Afstan due issues with comms.  I have a dim recall of reading something like that when NATO went in.  Has that been fixed or could they have gone any time?

I am under the impression that fast air requires an ENORMOUS logistical tail, in regards to maintenance, refueling etc. We also lack many of the precision weapons that our allies have an overwhelming prepondrance of.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am under the impression that fast air requires an ENORMOUS logistical tail, in regards to maintenance, refueling etc. We also lack many of the precision weapons that our allies have an overwhelming prepondrance of.

I was under the impression that we have since restocked our PGMs?

 

[Loachman]

I am not as certain as Duey that the Griffon, the LSVW of the helicopter world, would perform well in Afghanistan in the utility role but then I've got far less time on it, am not current, and am admittedly biased as a Kiowa guy.

The real limitation is more likely the state of 1 Wing today - very short of experienced aircrew and techs. I do not think that we could sustain a deployment under the circumstances, and, while a one-shot deployment might be doable, it may not be worth the effort.