Nimrod Replacement

[tomahawk6]

MoD needs a sub hunter to replace the Nimrod.The Fool has an interesting article about possible contenders.The unmanned choice is one I like - the Triton.For those that insist on a manned aircraft one possiblity is a modified C-130J as sub hunter.

The Triton option:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/08/21/northrop-grumman-wins-mq-4c-triton-uav-contract.aspx

The rest:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/09/20/as-russian-subs-encroach-britain-seeks-sub-hunter.aspx?source=eogyholnk0000001

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Without even reading the article I will say any...ANY...MPA platform should be a manned platform.  If you want to use UAV as a add-on/force multiplier, whatever buzz word fits this week, great.  But if you only have ONE maritime FW ASW/ASuW platform it has to be a manned one.  No RPA/UAV/drone, regardless of the sensor array, will have the SA you get from being there yourself bouncing over the sea state. 

My other comment before reading the articles;  I hope the RAF doesn't go down the same road and make the same mistake the US Navy has with the P-8 and opt out of a MAD system.  And, despite the articles and the song-singing of how great the P-8 is, not having a MAD is a huge, huge mistake.  MAD and a modern acoustics system are both required to conduct ASW for MPAs, full stop.  Not just those 2 sensors, but there is a need for both.

That's my :2c: having flown on nuc and diesel boats from...various NATO and non-NATO countries.  Manned MPA with a MAD. 

 

[tomahawk6]

I agree that a manned system has advantages.I found this discussion about the P8 vs the P-3.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/112747/

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Okay, after reading the article I'll deal with this first.

"This is proving a troubling trend in England, which retired its last sub-hunting Nimrod aircraft five years ago, and has yet to name a replacement. With near-zero sub-hunting capability today, the same Britannia that once "ruled the waves" is now blind to what's going on beneath them."

:facepalm:  'nuff said on that.  The Nimrod wasn't and isn't the only tool in that toolbelt.  The Astute class is one of the most modern SSNs out there today. 

My opinion, forget the C295 (and the CASA 235 while we're at it).  Too slow, not enough weapons and search stores and adding weapons to the Wings, even a basic weapons load of 2 fish, will slow the plane down.  I'd like to see their actual ASW version real-life stat's for endurance etc.  No mention of an acoustic system and search stores = MAD only.  Maybe an 'all grown up' version of the plane would have enough fuel tanks to conduct ASW using MAD only, but that lil fella just won't do it.  Weapons on wings at high transit alt's; the 295 site lists the max speed of 260kts.  That would be slower with fish on the wings.  You might not be able to fly that high with fish on the wings to start.  Kill stores on the wings at low level in cold temps = *problems* IMO.  A temp-controlled bomb bay is better.

I'd be interested to see the modified J model.  It would have the endurance, range, speed and lift cap's and I'm a guy who likes 3 or 4 fans turning, especially at 100' above the deck doing 200 knots.  I'd really like to see how they would arrange the necessary crew stations, avionics, sensors, search and kill stores a modern MPA *should* have. 

Nothing else on the page is worth the look IMO, for a single platform replacement of the Nimrod/Nimrod-like cap's.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Maybe they will put the kill stores on the ramp and eject them that way? That would be a hell of a show for the backend crew!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I agree that a manned system has advantages.

The only thing a UAV might have is a very long flight time.  However, that's assuming the AUV can even operate as ASW altitudes (I don't see how they could and would have to see it to believe it.  What is a Triton's ability to shed ice I wonder?)  A UAV will have the square root of zero level of SA at ASW altitudes.  What would its revisit time be to a datum?  So many questions.  ;D

FWIW, the old CP-107 Argus had a longer flight time than most long flight time UAVs, could carry a shit ton of kill stores and fly in pretty much any weather.  She was built way back in the stone ages of the late 50s.  She'd be a better MPA today than any UAV would be, IMO.

I found this discussion about the P8 vs the P-3  http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/112747/

I glanced at the it.  I stopped taking it seriously when someone quoted Wikipedia as a source.  ^-^ 

MAD.  You need MAD. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Maybe they will put the kill stores on the ramp and eject them that way? That would be a hell of a show for the backend crew!

That would be...interesting...ya I'll use that word.  I kinda like it the way it is now;  no wind, no cold.  No way to fall out.  ^-^

The Canadian version would be an old wooden cart, with a stop-rope on it so we could run and push it but still be able to use it over and over after we dumped the torp off the end of the ramp...

 

[Sub_Guy]

Based on the performance of our ASW suite; I'd be willing to give up MAD.

That being said we really do have an ASW system that is by far better than the one on the USN P8.

 

[Old Sweat]

That would be...interesting...ya I'll use that word.  I kinda like it the way it is now;  no wind, no cold.  No way to fall out.  ^-^

The C

Falling out of the back of an airplane is a really neat way to get to work.

Mods, sorry for the sidetrack, but it had to be said.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Based on the performance of our ASW suite; I'd be willing to give up MAD.

That being said we really do have an ASW system that is by far better than the one on the USN P8.

Have a chat with D.O. next week about DM.  Was interesting. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Falling out of the back of an airplane is a really neat way to get to work.

Mods, sorry for the sidetrack, but it had to be said.

It would be neat for the split second between falling and hitting the surface.  Then the fun would stop.  ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I don't think Old Sweat realizes the altitude at which ASW flying is carried out ... usually expressed in centimetres over sea level, not in thousand of metres.  ;D

 

[Old Sweat]

I don't think Old Sweat realizes the altitude at which ASW flying is carried out ... usually expressed in centimetres over sea level, not in thousand of metres.  ;D

I wasn't talking about "falling" out of the back of an ASW aircraft.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

But you were replying to Eye in the Sky, who was.

 

[Old Sweat]

Indeed, I should have been clearer, or taken a golden opportunity to keep my fingers off the keys.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Having had the pleasure of both jumping out of and landing in a Herc before, nowadays I prefer the latter.  ;D

I guess I have come to love my knees, back and a well-made "NATO-special" too much as I get closer to that CRA date...

 

[CougarKing]

Please stay tuned for the British PM's official statement later:

Guardian

Defence review: Cameron to announce new UK reconnaissance planes

Ewen MacAskill and Richard Norton-Taylor

Friday 20 November 2015 18.25 GMT
Last modified on Saturday 21 November 2015 00.09 GMT

A gaping hole in UK defences exposed by Russian planes and submarines over the last two years is to be plugged with the purchase of new reconnaissance planes, David Cameron will announce in the Commons.

The new planes are an admission that the government made a serious blunder in the budget-crunching 2010 review when it scrapped Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft that provided cover in the North Sea and elsewhere round the UK.

There was major embarrassment for the UK last year when the Ministry of Defence had to seek the help of the US, France and Canada to try to find a Russian submarine spotted off the west coast of Scotland, possibly tracking UK nuclear submarine movements from the Clyde.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[winnipegoo7]

Just a guess, but my money is on the P-8.

 

[Kirkhill]

Please stay tuned for the British PM's official statement later:

Guardian

Maybe the decision wasn't all bad.  It allows the RAF to unhook from the Nimrod and the British aerospace industry that was supporting it at exorbitant cost - (The Nimrods were the last flying remnants of the old DeHavilland Comet).

 

[jollyjacktar]

Ha, and here I thought this might be referencing the Labour Party Leader, Jeremy Corbyn, a "Nimrod" if ever there was one.