NCI Op

[Danno1]

Hi guys,

I was offered an NCI Op position, my third choice, my first was Comms Research. I didn't know this when choosing the trades, but I later found out that Comms Research had the highest cut-off requirements, and NCI Op among the lowest, in terms of academics, CFAT, and interview scores. There is only one spot left for Comms Research, and no set selection date, so it's a big gamble to note take this offer.

My interviewer was a MARS Officer, and he's been very helpful, and I would appreciate input from the board as well.

For an inquisitive person, can NCI Op offer intellectual challenges? I have a business degree but am not currently interested in Officer roles, so I chose the most difficult NCM trade, figuring it would be a challenging and stimulating environment.

From what I've read here and at the Forces site, it seems NCI is repetitive and somewhat of a dead end. I would gladly pay my dues with menial and tedious labour as everyone does, but hopefully with the opportunity to prove myself worthy of greater responsibilities. 

Are NCI Ops generally respectable recruits, and can one find meaningful challenges and advancement opportunities in this role?

I have the weekend to mull this over  :-\

 

[Blackadder1916]

Though I can provide no specific insight to the "intellectual" opportunities of being an NCI Op, the overall tone of your post triggered an irresistible urge to weigh in with a decidedly dated and possibly singular to me opinion.

Jaysus, you're full of yourself!

What is it that you think NCI Ops (or any other occupation whether Navy, Army or Air Force) do?  Are tasks (especially at the junior level) of this trade going to be repetitive?  Of course they are, but so will they be for most trades in the military (just like they are in the civilian world).  Is it going to be almost an assembly line mentality?  No, it won't.  And it definitely won’t be “menial”.  Maybe you should check the definition of menial – according to the COD . . . “degrading, servile”.  As an old NCO once said to us when we were bitching about sweeping the hanger floor, “right now, that’s the most important job that the Queen has for you, it’s just one of the many things that is necessary to ensure we are ready to protect Canada and our NATO allies from the communist hordes”.  (you can update the reference to enemy of the day)

If you are trying to base your decision on the intellectualism inherent in any trade, then you may not be as intellectual (or intelligent) as you think you are.  While intelligence (the native kind not the military kind), education, and (IMO) smarts are important qualities for any soldier or sailor (okay I'll include airman/woman, but they've got to get an easier to use title), military service is not an intellectual pursuit.  Are some trades more “thinking” based than others, yes, but even those will likely restrict new entries to limited courses of action that are already tested.  A lot of what NCMs (and officers) do as they start out will be repetitive.  They are the worker bees and, let’s face it, much of what the military does on a day to day basis is routine.  It will be the junior NCMs who will most often be the physical labour that performs that routine, whether it is daily maintenance, practising the same SOP/drill for the umpteenth time, or (in a no duff situation) performing those SOPs/drills at sea, in a comms van or armoured vehicle.

Over the years I've served with many individuals.  Thinking back about the intellectualism of the more memorable characters, I would have to say the most "intellectual" were two corporals, one was a Sup Tech I served with as a corporal (he retired as a Cpl after 30+ years in the RCAF/CF), the other was a Rad Tech who worked for me when I was a Captain.  Were they good at their jobs, yes.  Did their jobs offer them "intellectual challenges" - I think so, because it was reflected in the quality of their work.  But more importantly, they didn't define themselves as their jobs nor was their world limited to the military.  At the other end of the spectrum, I can think of one individual who was probably one of the rudest, crudest, and most uncouth I encountered during my time in the CF.  From my perspective, he approached his duties without any intellectual thought, but he must have been very intelligent (and it must have been recognized at some time during his career) because he was a LCol and a physician.

Comms Research is the most difficult?  How times have changed.  While it's always had very stringent requirements for entry (security checks being probably the biggest hurdle) don't equate cut-offs for CFAT scores and education with challenges provided by a job.  Back in the stone age (approaching 40 years ago), Comms Rsch was one of the trades offered to me (their standards must have been much lower then).  It seemed to me that it was almost a given that the offer was made to anyone who did well (passed) on the supplementary part of the aptitude test (it wasn't called CFAT back then) - the supplementary part was about receiving Morse code (I did well because I had learned code in the Boy Scouts).  We didn't have internet then to make endless inane queries about everything and the details from the recruiting centre about what that trade involved appeared to be limited to - "it's top secret".  As much as that seemed glamourous (and probably still does) I was able to get some perspective from a cousin who had retired from the RCAF/CF and had been to Alert a couple of times.  Back then I formed the opinion that Comm Rsch would probably be too "tedious" for me.

 

[dimsum]

I'll echo what Blackadder said about not defining yourself through the main job.  The CF has lots of seemingly random courses that you can ask for that can be very meaningful; just don't expect to get them right off the bat.  Maybe when you have a few years in, you can ask for (or will be asked to take) these courses. 

Also, NCI OPs can become Shipborne Air Controllers (Air Traffic Controllers for ships); the only other trade that does that is MARS as a director level, so I'll let you decide if it's a dead-end job or not.

If the main job isn't busy enough for you, consider doing a Masters part-time.  When I was in the Navy, a bunch of NCMs did just that and eventually got MBAs, etc.  That used to be covered under ILP or similar and I *believe* wasn't limited to Officers. 

I'll also advise you to check the "is x trade made up of respectable recruits" attitude at the door when you show up to CFLRS.  Not all NCM recruits are "just" high-school grads; I knew one who was a supertanker Chief Engineer and lecturer at one of our universities prior to joining the CF as a marine mechanic.  Walk in with an open attitude and you'll be fine.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I'm going to just echo Blackadder's comments as well and tell you to pull your neck in.

Hardest trades????? How do you know?

Respectable recruits??? Give me a break. You do realise that during BMQ you will be mixed in with all trades, not just other 'intellectual' trades, so your fireteam partner may well be an *shudder* infanteer, and as scary as this thought may seem to your lordship, you will have to help him out and there will be times when he helps you out. Like others have said, drop the f***ing attitude and do not show up thinking that your business degree somehow puts you a class apart from the rest of the menial workers.

If you want intellectual pursuits then join as an officer, otherwise be prepared to sweep a floor or sit at a duty desk at 2am just like everyone else.

Rant over.

Signed,
An Unrespectable, unintellectual combat arms type, who only does menial work.

 

[Occam]

The problem is that pigeonholing trades into "the most intellectual" or "most difficult" is so subjective.

Some people might find that the math and physics that go along with the Weapons Engineering Techs trades in the Navy are the most challenging.  I know calculus and Fourier transforms weren't exactly my favourite subject material.  By the QL5 level, they've done the equivalent of a community college diploma in Electronics Engineering Technology.

Some people might say that the breadth of knowledge required by the various aircraft maintenance technicians makes them the most challenging.  By the QL5 level, most (all?) of them will have AME certificates, which is another community college program.

Some people might say that Med Techs or Military Police are the most challenging, because they either require or give you community college level training.

As far as Comm Research and NCI Op go, I can tell you that there are probably times when you have a firehose of information aimed at you, and you have to pick through it and do your job very quickly.  There will be other times where you're bored to tears in front of a display, watching nothing particularly interesting going on.

There's no answer to your question.

 

[Danno1]

Thanks for your replies.

I'm sorry if I was offensive, when I used the word 'intellectual', all I meant was sorting information. My dad's a mechanic and I helped him renovate two houses, and I was better at the logistics of renovation, like reading manuals, materials pricing and purchasing, scheduling, etc. than the actual hands-on work. I wish I had his natural hands-on skills, but I don't. I would like to apply for Int Op later, and I know Comm Rsch is a good starting point, I didn't know about NCI Op.

The question about 'respectable recruits' was offensive, I apologize, as was the word menial.  I feel old at 27, and will be competing with guys who are younger and fresher than me physically, so I thought a trade focused more on experience and information would favor older guys. I don't have the luxury of mistakes and second chances that I did 10 years ago.

That's all I meant. I'm not a philosopher king, I follow Thomas Sowell and Ralph Peters, and think that "I would rather be governed by the first two thousand people in the Boston telephone directory than by the two thousand people on the faculty of Harvard University."

I'm in a tough spot because my job is contract, so I would have to resign to take this offer, whereas if I wait a few months and get permanent, I can take a leave of absence, and have a guaranteed job to come back to if I get hurt or something else bad happens at BMQ.

I'm also deep in the recruitment process for Border Services, and experience in that role would be great for my CF application, and maybe enough for an Officer role, or top NCM pick.

I'm really stressed out about this... I have two days to make a decision, and BMQ would be in less than 3 weeks. My family is not on board, and I'm our biggest bread winner. I would really jeopardize them if I went to BMQ and failed, and couldn't get my current job back, but this is what I want most.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you guys, when I get really stressed, I hide it with distant and cold speech and behaviors. Thanks for your thorough replies.

 

[dimsum]

Feel free to disagree, and I'm not sure if it's too late to do what I'm suggesting, but considering the job/family factors, if I were you I'd keep the current job (making it permanent) and look towards NCI Op or another trade in the Reserves. 

As you said, your family may be in a financial bind if something happens to you on BMQ, and it doesn't look like you have an effective "option B" if you do decide to join the Reg F on Monday.  NCI Op is a trade that is available in the Naval Reserve and while it's slightly different than the Reg F equivalent (how exactly I don't remember anymore), you can effectively "check it out" while keeping your current job once you become permanent.  Of course, I'd wait until you do become permanent before applying to NAVRES.  In my opinion, it's just not prudent to go to BMQ worrying about your family's financial future, especially if they aren't already 100% onboard with the idea of you going in the first place.

As a side note, I'm not sure how applying for CBSA helps with a concurrent application for the CF?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Just as a footnote MARS no longer do SAC, the NCIOPs have it again.

 

[Melbatoast]

I wrote up a big reply but kept going on tangents so here it is in sum: you would not enjoy being an NCIOP. 

You do plenty of hands-on as a junior combat operator, which is to say the first half decade-plus of your career.  You're a "sailor first" as it says everywhere, which means cleaning toilets, garbage processing, scraping rust, masking, painting and various other general seamanship duties.*  Your actual job becomes secondary to all that, so you have to be at peace with it or you will burn out fast.  The worst possibility is you develop a bad attitude about it and poison the workplace - I saw that happen all the time.  I've seen some guys like you do well, but almost invariably they end up going officer anyway.  More often they quit at some point early in their careers, not uncommonly before becoming QL3 qualified.

Dimsum's suggestion is a lower risk approach that is worth considering.

*NCIOPs do have the least exposure to sailor stuff of the three ops room trades, because radars always have to be manned, but it's still a big chunk of your job.

 

[Danno1]

Feel free to disagree, and I'm not sure if it's too late to do what I'm suggesting, but considering the job/family factors, if I were you I'd keep the current job (making it permanent) and look towards NCI Op or another trade in the Reserves. 

As you said, your family may be in a financial bind if something happens to you on BMQ, and it doesn't look like you have an effective "option B" if you do decide to join the Reg F on Monday.  NCI Op is a trade that is available in the Naval Reserve and while it's slightly different than the Reg F equivalent (how exactly I don't remember anymore), you can effectively "check it out" while keeping your current job once you become permanent.  Of course, I'd wait until you do become permanent before applying to NAVRES.  In my opinion, it's just not prudent to go to BMQ worrying about your family's financial future, especially if they aren't already 100% onboard with the idea of you going in the first place.

As a side note, I'm not sure how applying for CBSA helps with a concurrent application for the CF?

I've thought about the reserves, but I live in Toronto and hate the city, so joining a local reserve unit and committing a considerable amount of time, then trying to OT later, would prolong an unpleasant situation.

About CBSA, I think that passing the 6-month training depot on law enforcement, use of force, counter terrorism, PT, hostile situations, etc. would look good on a military resume, along with any experience that comes after.  At least that's the hope.

Another factor is that while BMQ is only 3 months, it would still be a while before I could bring my wife to a posting, possibly longer than with CBSA, even though the camp is actually longer. I read that you need a 6 month posting minimum to bring dependents, and NCI Op training is 26 weeks, which makes it risky. Comm Research is 45 weeks training, along with a long PAT in the same city, which makes it more favorable in that regard.

Thank for your input bud

I wrote up a big reply but kept going on tangents so here it is in sum: you would not enjoy being an NCIOP. 

You do plenty of hands-on as a junior combat operator, which is to say the first half decade-plus of your career.  You're a "sailor first" as it says everywhere, which means cleaning toilets, garbage processing, scraping rust, masking, painting and various other general seamanship duties.*  Your actual job becomes secondary to all that, so you have to be at peace with it or you will burn out fast.  The worst possibility is you develop a bad attitude about it and poison the workplace - I saw that happen all the time.  I've seen some guys like you do well, but almost invariably they end up going officer anyway.  More often they quit at some point early in their careers, not uncommonly before becoming QL3 qualified.

Dimsum's suggestion is a lower risk approach that is worth considering.

*NCIOPs do have the least exposure to sailor stuff of the three ops room trades, because radars always have to be manned, but it's still a big chunk of your job.

Thanks for the recommendation. My recruiter said something similar, that it would be tough for someone like me for the first few years, but I could grow into it. I'm hesitant because of my age and work insecurity.

CFR sounds more difficult than boosting your resume in the civy world and applying for Officer off the street, which I might do.

I'm heavily leaning towards a "no" reply, which really downs me. I have been preparing for this mentally and physically, my wife was ready for Comm Rsch and would be on board, my brother lives in Ottawa, when I saw the Forces call me I was ecstatic, but it was bittersweet when he said NCI Op. But that's no one's fault but my own, and I am very grateful for the offer. The circumstances have changed since I made my trade choices.

BMQ sounds like a grueling process, and as has been said, it is unwise to go there with distractions.

I don't mean any offense to NCI guys here, I would love to be a seaman, but the practical factors are working against me. If I was single and 20, I'd be on this offer like flies on poop, or as I discovered last night, cockroaches in my friend's apartment lobby.

 

[Danno1]

I've seen some guys like you do well, but almost invariably they end up going officer anyway. 

Wait, can you clarify this?

Do you mean CFR, or do you mean applying for officer instead from the outset?

 

[Melbatoast]

Wait, can you clarify this?

Do you mean CFR, or do you mean applying for officer instead from the outset?

Yes I mean CFR, but bear in mind that most folks quit, or develop terrible attitudes that make them poor CFR candidates long before being able to.  And you correctly guess that it's going to be easier to come in directly as an officer after some resume boosting than bet on some sort of CFR situation.

You could also just turn down the current offer and wait for comm research, the Forces won't be offended.

 

[Danno1]

Yes I mean CFR, but bear in mind that most folks quit, or develop terrible attitudes that make them poor CFR candidates long before being able to.  And you correctly guess that it's going to be easier to come in directly as an officer after some resume boosting than bet on some sort of CFR situation.

You could also just turn down the current offer and wait for comm research, the Forces won't be offended.

Which is what I did... hopefully no offense taken 

 

[seadog70]

Well Danno, if you "feel old at 27", imagine joining up at 39, waiting a year and a half, getting in at 40, and I'll be another 2 years older after I finish my QL3.  I originally signed up for the electronics trade, figured it would be fun, challenging, and thought I knew a little about it. During my wait, the trade filled up twice, and amalgamated with weapons tech, so I picked 3 new choices, after getting tired of witting around waiting, doing the same old dead end job with no future.
I'm the old guy on course, with a bunch of "kids" half my age. Challenging? At times, yes. Frightening? It could be said anything new is a little frightening.
When I signed up, I was the "bread-winner" in my family. I now make about half of what I used to. You learn to budget.
Do I have regrets? No, but that's strictly a personnel opinion. I've met a lot of people who bitch and whine about nothing except how much they pay for Rations and Quarters, and why aren't they on course, on a sail, etc.
I come from a construction background, always worked "hands-on", but was always using the ol'brain-box on a daily basis. I wanted to get a job that would offer me a challenge, mentally and physically. Today, I'm in better shape, look after a bunch of "kids" ( I already raised 3) and am starting a whole new life for me and my wife. Those "kids" I look after, great bunch. Maybe I got lucky, there's always a few out there who whine and complain regardless of their situation.
One other thing, I scored ( according to my recruiting officer) "really, really good" ( he told this to me actually 3 times and wondered why I didn't apply to go officer). My trade of choice? NCI OP.
Bottom line, if you feel you made the right choice, then you did, it's your life, your career, and your employer ( in this case the CF) wants you to enjoy your job. Best of luck to you, and remember, if you look for the good ( or bad) in a situation, you'll find it.

 

[seadog70]

I don't know what you are talking about Stacked.

 

[Danno1]

Well Danno, if you "feel old at 27", imagine joining up at 39, waiting a year and a half, getting in at 40, and I'll be another 2 years older after I finish my QL3.  I originally signed up for the electronics trade, figured it would be fun, challenging, and thought I knew a little about it. During my wait, the trade filled up twice, and amalgamated with weapons tech, so I picked 3 new choices, after getting tired of witting around waiting, doing the same old dead end job with no future.
I'm the old guy on course, with a bunch of "kids" half my age. Challenging? At times, yes. Frightening? It could be said anything new is a little frightening.
When I signed up, I was the "bread-winner" in my family. I now make about half of what I used to. You learn to budget.
Do I have regrets? No, but that's strictly a personnel opinion. I've met a lot of people who ***** and whine about nothing except how much they pay for Rations and Quarters, and why aren't they on course+, on a sail, etc.
I come from a construction background, always worked "hands-on", but was always using the ol'brain-box on a daily basis. I wanted to get a job that would offer me a challenge, mentally and physically. Today, I'm in better shape, look after a bunch of "kids" ( I already raised 3) and am starting a whole new life for me and my wife. Those "kids" I look after, great bunch. Maybe I got lucky, there's always a few out there who whine and complain regardless of their situation.
One other thing, I scored ( according to my recruiting officer) "really, really good" ( he told this to me actually 3 times and wondered why I didn't apply to go officer). My trade of choice? NCI OP.
Bottom line, if you feel you made the right choice, then you did, it's your life, your career, and your employer ( in this case the CF) wants you to enjoy your job. Best of luck to you, and remember, if you look for the good ( or bad) in a situation, you'll find it.

Congrats seadog, sounds like things are working out for ya 

Mind if I ask why you chose NCI Op?