Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[Cloud Cover]

They probably weren't known as chieftains, but rather as ceann-cinnidh -- as Gaelic was never Romanized as a language. The word "chief" -- as used by the CDS, various Navies, and controversially Kansas City Football Club, came into English from the French, where it originated in the Latin as "caput". Very unlikely that the ancient Romans were actually talking about the NFL at the time, or referencing the populations of the New World. Context is important, and while the word itself isn't inherently offensive -- it is sometimes used in an offensive way -- the Navy isn't using the word in the same way as a football team that plays in Arrowhead Stadium and has a mascot named Warpaint.

Thanks for that!!!  But .. but ... they even named a tank Chieftan!!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Interesting story behind how the Chiefs got their name. It was in honour of a mayor (nicknamed The Chief).

Bartle seemed determined to participate in as many charitable organizations as possible. He accepted thirty appointments to philanthropic boards and commissions and in time became an executive in virtually all of them. During World War II, he served as director of American War Dads, a soldier-welfare group.

On Christmas, he would regularly spend the day visiting orphanages, the Boy's Home, the city jail, and other places that might be overlooked on such a holiday.

And of course this little tidbit of integrity.

According to his daughter, when his friend, President Harry Truman, asked him to become the regional director of the Economic Stabilization Agency, Bartle had to resign from 57 boards of directors to avoid possible conflicts of interest.

 

[Kat Stevens]

They probably weren't known as chieftains, but rather as ceann-cinnidh -- as Gaelic was never Romanized as a language. The word "chief" -- as used by the CDS, various Navies, and controversially Kansas City Football Club, came into English from the French, where it originated in the Latin as "caput". Very unlikely that the ancient Romans were actually talking about the NFL at the time, or referencing the populations of the New World. Context is important, and while the word itself isn't inherently offensive -- it is sometimes used in an offensive way -- the Navy isn't using the word in the same way as a football team that plays in Arrowhead Stadium and has a mascot named Warpaint.

Then we better stop calling saltines "crackers" as that word deeply offends me.

 

[Kilted]

Is anyone actually looking to remove the word Chief from rank and position titles?

 

[shawn5o]

From CBC

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-commander-responds-to-online-criticism-1.5663814#:~:text=One%20simply%20replaces%20%22seaman%22%20with,option%20to%20suggest%20alternative%20terms.

"Navies around the world have described their junior sailors as 'seamen' for decades"

Okay. I was called dinosaur, old man, and a few other colourfull words. Some deserved. But I do not care for this "wokeness" among our political and military leaders.

Thoughts?

 

[NavyShooter]

The leadership has spoken. 

Rather clearly.

If you are part of the followership, and cannot support it, then the options have been very clearly presented, right up to and including contacting the DCRCN directly.

 

[shawn5o]

The leadership has spoken. 

Rather clearly.

If you are part of the followership, and cannot support it, then the options have been very clearly presented, right up to and including contacting the DCRCN directly.

Yes, I recall SHARP "training" back in late 90s or early 2000s. And the higher ups clearly spoke (I cannot remember the exact words) but it was if you don't like it, then leave.

Oh yes, I did comment directly to the RCN.

However, my point is "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" (something like that)

So Navyshooter, am I to infer you support the change?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Yes, I recall SHARP "training" back in late 90s or early 2000s. And the higher ups clearly spoke (I cannot remember the exact words) but it was if you don't like it, then leave.

Oh yes, I did comment directly to the RCN.

However, my point is "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" (something like that)

So Navyshooter, am I to infer you support the change?

What if it is broken?  Perhaps you see this as a non-issue but it may not be true for your colleagues.

 

[Haggis]

Yes, I recall SHARP "training" back in late 90s or early 2000s.

The partial failure of SHARP training led us to the birth of Operation HONOUR.  (The other partial failure that led to Operation HONOUR was that leadership training had morphed into management training.  "Know your troops and promote their welfare"became cumbersome unless it affected the bottom line.  The NCO Corps was emasculated and unable/unwilling to apply the needed discipline to sort out the cave dwellers.  The "old boy" attitudes of the management cadre allowed any gains made by SHARP to fall aside.)

Another partial failure of SHARP led us to the demise of the Cdn AB Regt and a myriad of other lessons we failed to adequately learn and apply about promoting the welfare of our troops.

Times change.  Attitudes change.  Treatment that I was subjected to when I joined 42 years ago would land people in jail now.  It was accepted back then, but not any longer.  I also remember the days when a female member's rank was written "Sgt(W)" and that practice persisted well into the 1980's. 

This is not being "woke" (I hate that term) it is evolving.  We must be reflective of the society that we defend and recruit from, even if it seems foreign or ineffective to us now.  Is our system broken?  Is this the right fix if it is?  Only our performance in the next shooting war will determine that.

 

[shawn5o]

What if it is broken?  Perhaps you see this as a non-issue but it may not be true for your colleagues.

So what do Canadians want in our military? What is the future for the CF?

Changing the name of that rank will cause enlistment to rise? I highly doubt it.

Will changing the name increase the navy's ships?

Shouldn't the Rear Admiral be advocating better funding? More ships? More sailors?

"This is why I strongly support our Rank Change Initiative, as I believe it is long overdue that ALL Royal Canadian Navy processes and policies, including our Ranks, reflect, honour and recognize the service and sacrifice made by ALL of our SAILORS."
(Rear-Admiral Chris Sutherland)

and

"To those of you who have made hateful, misogynistic and racist comments"
(Rear-Admiral Chris Sutherland)

So now I  understand that keeping the rank of seamen is a "hateful, misogynistic and racist comment".

Sorry but that is stupid.

I would hope that the CF has more urgent priorities but then again, I'm just an old dinosaur

 

[shawn5o]

Look guys and gals

I do understand the what and why of your comments and you are all correct. I just don't think this is a good way to change attitudes.

Thank you for time

 

[CBH99]

I would actually be genuinely curious to know how female members feel about the change.

Was this initiative driven because of complaints that the ranks including the word 'seamen' was sexist?  Was this an issue some female members pointed out needed change?

Or do the female members even care?  And this initiative was proactive, rather than reactive?



No judgement here either way.  Just curious. 

 

[QV]

... right up to and including contacting the DCRCN directly.

I'm not sure how to describe how I feel about that part of the statement coming from someone so senior as this.  As if any junior ranked member is going to directly contact the DCRCN to challenge this.  He should have just issued the order or made his statement and left it at that.  Inviting some junior member to contact him directly knowing he would crush them or their career if they did is... something other than professional. 

 

[dimsum]

I'm not sure how to describe how I feel about that part of the statement coming from someone so senior as this.  As if any junior ranked member is going to directly contact the DCRCN to challenge this.  He should have just issued the order or made his statement and left it at that.  Inviting some junior member to contact him directly knowing he would crush them or their career if they did is... something other than professional.

Well, apparently this actually happened on Reddit.

Backstory: several days ago I commented on a thread here regarding the "seaman" name change and how Admiral Sutherland told members to contact him directly if they have an issue with the change. My comment was more or less "the change is good, but dont bother contacting him because ive personally gotten a 5B for contacting people much lower in rank than him".

Which leads me to admitting when I am wrong.

Rear Admiral Sutherland is on this sub. Not only that, but he PM'd me directly after seeing my comment and stating that hes had 4 junior NCMs contact him since the article and several officers and an open invitation to him if I had any constructive criticism. I have zero constructive criticism because I supported the change, but I have to give 100% credit where credit is due. A senior leader like that with his ear to ground is exactly who we need at the top and it is reassuring to see we have such open leadership at the top.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/hz6eix/when_im_wrong_im_happy_to_admit_it/

 

[dapaterson]

I'm not sure how to describe how I feel about that part of the statement coming from someone so senior as this.  As if any junior ranked member is going to directly contact the DCRCN to challenge this.  He should have just issued the order or made his statement and left it at that.  Inviting some junior member to contact him directly knowing he would crush them or their career if they did is... something other than professional.

Do you know the man?  Have you ever spoken with him?  Do you know his character?  Why do you assume those behaviours and actions?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Do you know the man?  Have you ever spoken with him?  Do you know his character?  Why do you assume those behaviours and actions?

I assumed he wasn't genuine about it (I've heard that door is always open, see me directly line a few times).

Based of Reddit it looks like I was wrong and in hindsight I should be less cynical.

 

[QV]

Do you know the man?  Have you ever spoken with him?  Do you know his character?  Why do you assume those behaviours and actions?

No.  No.  No.  Like Jarnhamar, I've seen that scenario play out before.  But in this case it appears it's genuine if the reddit account is true.  Yes, I suppose I'm cynical.   

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I do know the man.  I know his character.  He meant what he said, and there is absolutely zero risk of backlash coming from him.

You might be amazed to find that many senior leaders are quite sincere. 

I am willing to guess that the backlash that you are referring too as having seen play out before probably did not come from a GOFO.

 

[stellarpanther]

I would actually be genuinely curious to know how female members feel about the change.

Was this initiative driven because of complaints that the ranks including the word 'seamen' was sexist?  Was this an issue some female members pointed out needed change?

Or do the female members even care?  And this initiative was proactive, rather than reactive?



No judgement here either way.  Just curious.

There was a brief conversation on this topic last week on one of the HRA Facebook pages and most people seemed to welcome the changes.  The conversation didn't last long and quickly moved back to HRA topics.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Shouldn't the Rear Admiral be advocating better funding? More ships? More sailors?

Which of these do you think he stopped being concerned about to address ranks? Do you think any senior appointment, officer or NCM, is only capable of working on one thing?


Re: Dinosaurs. After dinosaurs turned out to be evolutionary dead ends, the rest of the ecosystem continued to evolve and thrive without them.