• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Navy Reserve Intelligence

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,025
Points
940
HUMINT collection does not require Int personnel; HUMINT analysis does. But that wasn't the point.

I was merely stating that NavRes Int people are deployed in roles beyond the arcs you suggested (support the Navy only, with no other operational role to be considered). As such, NavRes Int pers need refresher training beyond basic bluewater skills....I was suggesting that, like other trades'/classification's training, such refresher training would be the responsibility of their unit.

If you don't believe your Int pers are entitled to such support from their ship, I can use that portion of your training budget  ;D
 

Sailorwest

Member
Reaction score
0
Points
210
Journeyman said:
HUMINT collection does not require Int personnel; HUMINT analysis does. But that wasn't the point.

I was merely stating that NavRes Int people are deployed in roles beyond the arcs you suggested (support the Navy only, with no other operational role to be considered). As such, NavRes Int pers need refresher training beyond basic bluewater skills....I was suggesting that, like other trades'/classification's training, such refresher training would be the responsibility of their unit.

If you don't believe your Int pers are entitled to such support from their ship, I can use that portion of your training budget  ;D

The conversation has certainly morphed a fair bit from where it started. I wasn't really planning on arguing whether NAVRES pers could be employed out of the Naval element because it certainly does happen. My point was more in line with the standard (normal, usual, apply your own adjective here) employment for NAVRES mbrs which is how the NAVRES Mission is built.
Yep, we would ensure that appropriate refresher training was done so that folks would be DAG Green, and you can't have any of my training budget.  :D
 

medaid

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
IMHO with the way the NAVRES INT trade has been operating, it would have been best for the Branch to not have agreed to allow its inception.

I agree with ltmaverick25 in that without Int Ops in the Navy world, is akin to asking am infantry platoon commander to fight a battle without a platoon. Developing Int resources and analyzing are time consuming efforts that, if left to one person to do would mean that the product can almost never be tabled. The Army does not function in this way with regards to the Int organization, what made the Navy think that it could?

What the Branch and the navy should have done is fully developed RegF Navy Int tasks, goals, and parameters. NAVRES should have never gotten that tasking. It should have remained as it was, a NCAGS billet. NAVRES Int Os, unless deployed on a ship, or get to work at one of the centers rarely, if ever practice their trades. Exercises are not held often enough, where their skills are put to use. As previously mentioned the lack of understanding of Int capabilities, have caused NAVRES Int Os to be often put as "white cell" or OPFOR. Completely missing the point of having Int assets in the first place.
If those pers who wish to learn about Int, or progress to work in Int roles, then they CT to RegF This way it ensures force generation by the NAVRES as its goal, and it creates a clear focus for Navy Int jobs. NCAGS are NCAGS, and Int is Int. No cross over, and no confusion.

As I said... get rid of it. It's not needed. There are not enough billets for most of the RegF Navy Int Os, let alone enough for NAVRES ones. Without a proper support, proper understanding of its arcs or responsibilities, it's a money waster.
 

TimBit

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ltmaverick25 said:
This would be akin to one MARS officer trying to run the entire ship by himself.

Wait, isn't that how it happens as of now ?  :p
 

TimBit

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
MedTech said:
IMHO with the way the NAVRES INT trade has been operating, it would have been best for the Branch to not have agreed to allow its inception.

I agree with ltmaverick25 in that without Int Ops in the Navy world, is akin to asking am infantry platoon commander to fight a battle without a platoon. Developing Int resources and analyzing are time consuming efforts that, if left to one person to do would mean that the product can almost never be tabled. The Army does not function in this way with regards to the Int organization, what made the Navy think that it could?

What the Branch and the navy should have done is fully developed RegF Navy Int tasks, goals, and parameters. NAVRES should have never gotten that tasking. It should have remained as it was, a NCAGS billet. NAVRES Int Os, unless deployed on a ship, or get to work at one of the centers rarely, if ever practice their trades. Exercises are not held often enough, where their skills are put to use. As previously mentioned the lack of understanding of Int capabilities, have caused NAVRES Int Os to be often put as "white cell" or OPFOR. Completely missing the point of having Int assets in the first place.
If those pers who wish to learn about Int, or progress to work in Int roles, then they CT to RegF This way it ensures force generation by the NAVRES as its goal, and it creates a clear focus for Navy Int jobs. NCAGS are NCAGS, and Int is Int. No cross over, and no confusion.

As I said... get rid of it. It's not needed. There are not enough billets for most of the RegF Navy Int Os, let alone enough for NAVRES ones. Without a proper support, proper understanding of its arcs or responsibilities, it's a money waster.

Now now. The problem with keeping the trade as NCAGS was, IMHO, that it wasn't employable outside of NavRes or wartime context. Even though one could argue, successfully, that this is only the case because the CF have not yet fully integrated such a capability in their naval op. capability planning, unlike Spain, UK and some other european countries. Nevertheless, as the Reserves move towards integrability (is that even a word?) and deployability, it makes sense for all reserve trades to be employable in a full time position. In that context, there should not be any Reserves trade that do not translate into reg force trades, even though the focus of their capability differs. That is, I believe, the spirit in which these positions were created. And as it has been stated by, among others, ltmaverick, we were indeed offered tons of positions in operational commands because the branch is hurting for Int O's (yes, I'm also one).

As for the agument that this should have been done at the Reg Force level, well Int currently is recruiting only for the land element, unless one has prior experience (i.e., NavRes). So much for the dedicated Navy Int mandate and capabilities. Furthermore, what then about PRes Army Int?

I think your vision of NavRes - NCAGS and RegF-Int actually goes against the spirit of Total FOrce as laid out most recently by our former CDS, who sought transferability b/w components according to life circumstances. Seems to me, if the qualifications and the jobs are differents b/w components, then we fail to achieve this goal.
 

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,025
Points
940
MedTech, if I understand your argument correctly, NavRes should do away with Int because, a) it's not organized properly (no Int Ops), and b) the leadership does not understand its use (inadequate training and misemploy as OPFOR).

Speaking from an Infantry perspective, I can't imagine abolishing Recce Pl because the Sniper Det is unavailable. I'd work towards maximizing the existing capability, while trying to develop the "perfect DS solution."

Further, if I had a Pl Comd that didn't understand the care, feeding, and employment of his Weapons Det, then the development of the Pl leadership would be the answer, not shrugging and getting rid of the support weapons capability.

Oh, and during the wargaming portion of battle procedure, the G2 plays the Enemy; I would suggest that seeing the world through OPFOR eyes is part of the Int domain. Get used to it.


As for there being "not enough billets for most of the RegF Navy Int Os, let alone enough for NAVRES ones...." This is where I'd normally say "there are perhaps other interpretations of the data" (when I obviously mean "bullshyte!")
I can give you the Senior Navy IntO's email if you'd like. I'm sure Josh would be more than happy to explain to you (in the loving Naval way that senior officers can 'explain' to NCdts) that it's a training logjam -- your Branch is not awash with IntOs. The push for Army is based on the immediate and forecast future requirements for land-based warfare expertise.

Nonetheless, as mentioned above, NavRes Int is suitable for deployment into the various higher HQs due to the purple nature of the job. I'd hate to see a source of personnel disappear because someone is taking their toys and stomping off.
 

kratz

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
119
Points
880
I do not beleive MedTech is mentioning anything new WRT NaVRes discussing the option of dropping the Int O capability. Over the past number of years, other MOCs have also been dropped (Med MOCs, Eng O) or rerolled (Mar Eng to MESO) as they no longer fit into the mandated roles tasked to NavRes. As mentioned earlier, there are other sources for some of these skills (RegF or another element). On the flip side, new roles have opend (PFAO) within NavRes IAW tasks assigned to the formation.

 

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,025
Points
940
Again, at the end of the day, it's not my element and it's not my classification.

NavRes Int is a new beast, and I'm merely cautioning against 'cutting off noses to spite faces' simply because there's some growing pains in the R82 world.
 

ltmaverick25

Sr. Member
Mentor
Reaction score
0
Points
0
While the concept of dropping a trade, or rolling a trade into another trade may not be bran new, it doesnt eactly make this particular argument sound.  The navy, just like any other element has to approach its affairs with a total force concept.  There is a reason why this concept is being pushed as hard as it has been.  First of all its effective, and second of all, it gives reservists a greater sence of purpose.

As I have been trying to say several times in this thread.  There IS a viable, legitimate role for Naval Reserve Int Officers to play.  The problem right now is twofold.  a) no Int Ops but this is being fixed based on the discussions we've had, and b) Naval leadership doesnt understand how to employ Int effectively yet...

Just because Int isnt well understood doesnt mean you say quash the capability.  It means you take measures to ensure that it becomes undererstood.  There will always be ego afood, and some wont WANT to understand the role.  This becomes a function of higher leadership to enforce.

Either way, in the world we live in today, where the threat isnt always so simple as a Soviet armored formation, or an enemy fleet with capitol ships, Int is one of the most important functions that any commander can have available to him. 
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
6,305
Points
1,090
kratz said:
I do not beleive MedTech is mentioning anything new WRT NaVRes discussing the option of dropping the Int O capability. Over the past number of years, other MOCs have also been dropped (Med MOCs, Eng O) or rerolled (Mar Eng to MESO) as they no longer fit into the mandated roles tasked to NavRes. As mentioned earlier, there are other sources for some of these skills (RegF or another element). On the flip side, new roles have opend (PFAO) within NavRes IAW tasks assigned to the formation.

Medical occupations were not dropped, they were combined under the CF Health System to ensure the maintenance of clinical competence (Army Reserve medics were also repatriated).

This does highlight joint failings within the CF.  Let's be blunt:  the Navy has control of assets to support the CF mission, as does the Army, the Air Force, and every other organization in the CF.  It's not a self-licking ice cream cone.  Particularly for purple trades, the requirements at national and joint HQs must be considered alongside internal demands.

Unfortunately, there are few people paid to take a holistic view; CFD is more concerned with the change agenda than the sustain agenda (and the DFSR folks are seemingly CFD with a new coat of paint; little new coming from there).

All this to say: for trades like Int, uniform colour is an afterthought.  In a healthy world we'd routinely move black and green reserve Int personnel between units to encourage cross-pollination and growth (I believe a LCdr currently commands one of the Army's Int Coys).  We're too small to get obsessed with "Mine!" at the expense of success.
 

cjr

Guest
Reaction score
0
Points
10
I have recently been informed by my local Nav Res unit that this trade is now closed due to a backlog of people waiting for the Basic Intelligence Officer Course.

Does anyone have any more information on this?  In particular does anyone have any idea how long this closure will last?
 

ltmaverick25

Sr. Member
Mentor
Reaction score
0
Points
0
My guess is, you will be waiting at least 2 years or so before the trade reopens.  I am a reg force INT O Navy and I am one of those people waiting for the BIOC.  Im told to expect a course sometime in 2012.  It would be a waste of money for them to bring more guys into the trade if they cant be trained.  Im costing the CF alot of money to be on OJT for three years...
 

jpike87

Guest
Reaction score
0
Points
0
This is separate from the current discussion but about Navy Reserve Intelligence nonetheless. I'm in my final year of university. I'll graduate in May with a B. Comm majoring in logistics. My interests lie in international shipping/transportation and until I read about navy reserve intelligence I thought my best fit would be logistics officer.

So getting to my questions:
What type of work are they involved in? Do they act as a liaison between military and civilian shipping companies?
Most of the discussion has been centred around B.C., is this position available in Halifax?
After I graduate, are reserves possible for full-time employment in this field?
I've read in this discussion that they are both always accepting applicants for this position as well as it will be 2+ years before the backlog is caught up. Any insight into realistic times?

Thanks in advance.
 

Monsoon

Sr. Member
Reaction score
10
Points
230
jpike87 said:
This is separate from the current discussion but about Navy Reserve Intelligence nonetheless. I'm in my final year of university. I'll graduate in May with a B. Comm majoring in logistics. My interests lie in international shipping/transportation and until I read about navy reserve intelligence I thought my best fit would be logistics officer.

So getting to my questions:
What type of work are they involved in? Do they act as a liaison between military and civilian shipping companies?
Logistics officers? Yes, as a part of the job. Intelligence officers? No, never.

Most of the discussion has been centred around B.C., is this position available in Halifax?
It's available where ever there's the Navy, so Halifax, Victoria and at Naval Reserve Divisions across the country. I should warn you that Int spots will continue to be very tight in the Naval Reserve for the next couple of years until a training backlog is worked through.

After I graduate, are reserves possible for full-time employment in this field?
Many have made full-time careers in the reserves, but if you're looking beyond a couple of years, the regular force is certainly a better option.

I've read in this discussion that they are both always accepting applicants for this position as well as it will be 2+ years before the backlog is caught up. Any insight into realistic times?
That's about right for Int. Log is available immediately, though.
 

Antoine

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Hi jpike87,

Call first the reserve unit of interest and ask them if the trade you are looking for is opened for new candidates.

Many units hold an information session once a week in the evening for prospective reservists.

You probalby checked already but you can get basic informations on the Naval reserve website

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/navres/0/0-n-1_eng.asp

Good luck.
 

ltmaverick25

Sr. Member
Mentor
Reaction score
0
Points
0
jpike87 said:
So getting to my questions:
What type of work are they involved in? Do they act as a liaison between military and civilian shipping companies?
Most of the discussion has been centred around B.C., is this position available in Halifax?
After I graduate, are reserves possible for full-time employment in this field?
I've read in this discussion that they are both always accepting applicants for this position as well as it will be 2+ years before the backlog is caught up. Any insight into realistic times?

Thanks in advance.

Naval Reserve INT officers used to be classified as NCS which is Naval Control of Shipping.  In the early 90s that trade got rolled into intelligence.  However, part of the NAVRES Basic Intelligence Officer Course (BIOC) still has what we now call NCAGS material in it.  NCAGS is the modern version of NCS.  So, there are times when reserve intelligence officers could act as a sort of liason, however, for the most part, they are primarily concerned with keeping track of merchant shipping.

Once trained, as a naval reservist you will have the opportunity for full time employment on either coast if you so choose.  JTFP employs alot of reservists as Intelligence Watch Officers (IWO).  There are a few who work in the J2 shop as well, but security clearances are often an issue limiting reservists to the IWO positions, pending higher clearances.

There is also alot of opportunity to work full time for the .com's in Ottawa, though NAVRES does not like to publish those jobs as they consider their primary mandate as manning positions on the coasts.

As for the work that a naval intelligence officer does other then IWO positions.  It varies....  Naval intelligence officers often find themselves in analyst positions, leadership positions or both.  That is as much detail as I am confortable posting via these means, but suffice it to say that a naval intelligence officer, in my humble opinion, is rarely ever bored.  The work is facinating, and exciting.... and sometimes stressful, but overall alot of fun.

As for a realistic timeframe.  Based on what I know right now, I beleive that a two year wait period is a realistic timeframe.  When last I checked we had over 100 Int officers waiting for training and we simply dont have the capacity to train guys as fast as we can recruit them, so an all out freeze has been imposed.
 

Mike5

Member
Reaction score
1
Points
230
Good information about INT roles.  Are the folks who contributed to this thread still on the board and willing to answer some basic questions?
 

Greymatters

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Ive worked with them but there are several others here with more experience.  You can check their status and see when was the last time they posted. 


 

Mike5

Member
Reaction score
1
Points
230
Is there a Maritime Command unit similar to the  U.S. Fleet Cyber Command / U.S. Tenth Fleet at Fort Meade, Maryland?
 

Arctic Acorn

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
210
I'm not convinced that having Naval Reserve Int Ops are required to support the Int Function for the Naval Reserves, and certainly not in the same way as the Army does it. From my limited exposure working with the Navy, on the regular force side of things they have chosen to brigade their Int Folks (cap badges and enablers) together, working at HMCS Trinity (I can't recall what the MARPAC version is named). Naval Int Ops (or Int Os for that matter), don't work aboard ship unless deployed, and then it's normally an Int O in support of the Task Force Commander on the Athabaskan or Irouquois. In this way, all of the collection and processing function can be done in one place (on shore), and in doing so can support a larger group of people. Deployed navel Int Os, I believe, you're really more of a 'Customer Service Representive'. You advise the commander on capabilities, liaise with other NATO parters on other vessels, and manage task tailored requirements back to the shore-based unit. Those products are produced and sent back to the Int O, who helps manage the dissemination aspect. Also, from what I understand sea-going trades like NCI Ops and Comms Rsch types mirror many of the functions Int Ops do. I'd have to drink beer with an Int O who has deployed in this role to really understand how effective the current system is, though.

On the reserve side, as you should have the same level of access to support at TRINITY (though admittedly at a lower priority), do you really need a full Int Staff in order to do your job? The Branch could produce NAVRES Int Ops fairly quickly, as the 5A training is environmentalized now. But I'm still unconvinced you need to do so.
 
Top