Montrealer sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia

[Mike Baker]

LINK

Montrealer sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia
Updated Tue. Mar. 4 2008 7:08 AM ET

The Canadian Press

MONTREAL -- Friends of a Canadian jailed in Saudi Arabia on murder charges lashed out at Saudi justice and demanded help from the Canadian government Monday upon learning that he was convicted and sentenced to a public beheading.

Mahmoud Al-Ken, a reporter for a Montreal Arabic radio station, says the family of Mohamed Kohail told him Monday that Kohail was found guilty of murder.

He says Kohail is to be beheaded in public but has 80 days to appeal the ruling.

Kohail "got nine court sessions, each court session lasted 10 minutes,'' Al-Ken said.

A spokesman for the Foreign Affairs Department in Ottawa confirmed Monday night that Kohail had been convicted and faces the death penalty.

"We are deeply disappointed at the verdict handed down by Saudi authorities,'' said Bernard Nguyen, a Foreign Affairs spokesman.

Nguyen said Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier and Secretary of State Helena Guergis had been briefed on the situation and are following it closely.

"We are in close contact with the family and continue to provide consular services,'' Nguyen said. "The family continues to explore other legal avenues including an appeal of this verdict.'' He would not elaborate further, citing the family's privacy.

A close friend of the family called on the Canadian government to take further steps to help Kohail.

"I want the government here to ask on what basis the Saudi government decided this was first-degree murder,'' Mayada Jabri told Info690, a Montreal radio station.

"It was the influence of the other family which got a verdict that was not fair. I only want justice.''

A family friend who spoke with Kohail's parents shortly after the verdict was handed down says they are livid at the Saudi justice system.

"They don't believe by any means they got a fair trial,'' he told The Canadian Press.

The friend, who lives in Montreal and asked that his name not be used, claimed the court ignored evidence that would have cleared Kohail.

He also said Kohail's lawyers were repeatedly denied access to the courtroom.

Kohail was allegedly involved in a schoolyard brawl that left one person dead.

He was arrested along with his brother, Sultan, last spring and imprisoned in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. The younger brother's fate remains unclear.

Dan McTeague, the Liberal critic for consular services, said he hopes the federal government acts swiftly to secure Kohail's release.

Ottawa must also investigate allegations that confessions were obtained under duress, McTeague said.

But he said the government is in an awkward position after a recent decision not to seek clemency in a death penalty case in the United States.

"It has already precluded the standard request for clemency to only request clemency in those cases where it disagrees with the judicial or legal system of another country,'' he said.

"They are starting off from a position that is potentially difficult, not to mention potentially insulting.''

Those who knew Kohail are shocked that diplomatic efforts to lessen the charges failed.

"We originally felt he would not face the death penalty,'' said Barry Gaiptman, a guidance counsellor at Kohail's former school in Montreal who has been circulating a petition calling for his release.

Gaiptman believes Kohail received a rough shake from the Saudi justice system.

"He's a young boy who is certainly not involved in anything more than schoolyard brawl,'' he said.

The family spent several years in Montreal before recently returning to Saudi Arabia.

The two boys were involved in a fight that broke out after a girl's male cousin accused Sultan of insulting her.

The brother demanded an apology, but Sultan refused.

Sultan, then 16, said he called for help from Mohamed when he was confronted by several boys over the insult.

According to the account of the Kohail brothers, Mohamed Kohail arrived at the school with a male friend to face about a dozen of the girl's male relatives and friends. Some were armed with clubs and knives.

One of the attackers was punched, fell to the ground and died.

He has been identified as Munzer Haraki, a cousin of the girl who was supposedly insulted.

Ali Kohail, the brothers' father, has said the family had only temporarily relocated to Saudi Arabia to attend a relative's wedding -- an Arab tradition says three ceremonies must be held.

They always intended to return to Canada, where they still own a home in Montreal.

A Foreign Affairs official has said the department was offering assistance to the Canadians who spent several months in jail before Monday's verdict.



(Mods I never found another article on the same subject, move if needed)

 

[1feral1]

KSA justice is swift. He is a dual citizen, and I don't think Canada can do much but protest.

Since he is still a KSA citizen, and commited this crime on KSA soil, was on trial there, sentanced there, he is bound by the law, and will pay for the crime he committed in his country against another citizen of that country.

Personally I don't think Canada should step in, its the KSA's business, not ours.

He has only himself to blame, and another Canadian citizen 'of convenience' is about to pay the piper.

As Ned Kelly said before he did the jig on the gallows, 'such is life'.

Chop-chop!

Wes

 

[ballz]

Wow, Wes, I gotta say I'm a little more reluctant.

The poor guy stands up to multiple people that may have been armed, and he's the one that ends up on the guillotine (sp?). While I have to admit, he can't play the self-defense card since it seems like he knew he was going there to scrap a bunch of people, it obviously wasn't first-degree (well at least by our definition).

Doesn't seem like he was given a fair trial either. I'm with you on everything about him being a Saudi citizen, committing a crime in Saudi, and so he should suffer under Saudi law, but I'd like to see the guy get a fair trial. Also, him being 16 makes me feel more empathic. He's just a kid.

 

[1feral1]

Actually executions are done with a sword, as the condemed is on his knees. All publically too. Like in an open area and many gather to watch. Usually done with many at a go. They chop the hands off kids too, yes for stealing. Usually the right hand is chopped, and they leave the left one, as its considered unclean - remember they wipe their asses with their BARE hands, the left hand, ha!

What you are hearing is their side of the story, not necessarily the actual facts and evidence laid down by the prosecution. Again this violence is related to 'honour' and 'insutling' another.

I've been to 5 islamic countries, thats part of their culture, and we find it hard to comprehend.

Remember this is the same place you loose a hand for theft, and have you tongue cut out for other silly reasons.

500 yrs from now, if there still is a KSA, this type of justice will remain.

Wes

 

[Lumber]

500 yrs from now, if there still is a KSA, this type of justice will remain.

The Inquisition ended 500 years ago. What kind of justice did they practice then?

Look a little further back:

The three ordeals came into being as medieval punishment during the reign of Henry II in England. The ordeals were – fire, water and combat. Those who were accused of a crime faced these medieval punishments to prove their innocence. The fire ordeal involved carrying a hot iron bar for a set number of paces. The resulting wound was then bandaged. If in three days time the wound had not gotten better, that medieval punishment proved your guilt. The water ordeal involved tossing a tied up person in a body of water. If they floated, they were guilt.

Nobles faced their own medieval punishment trial to prove their innocence. Trial by combat. Whoever won the battle was in the right.

Failing a trial could result in a number of medieval punishments. Thieves hands were often cut off. Women guilty of murder faced strangling and burning. Those who hunted the royal parks faced the medieval punishment of having their ears cut off. Other crimes called for the medieval punishment of being drawn and quartered. Prison generally wasn’t an option as it was cheaper to hang, burn, or draw and quarter than house the guilty, making medieval punishment something truly to be feared.

http://www.medieval-castle-siege-weapons.com/medieval-punishment.html

I agree he committed a crime, and should be punished under Saudi law. I can't say if he planned on  killing the man, or just wanted to fend him off, and I can't say whether the trial was fair or not, his family is obviously biased. What I don't agree with is the apparent lack of transparency in Saudi law, as well as the barbaric brutality of Saudi Law.

Sure, it's a different culture, but I'm going to take the high road here and say it is wrong. I'm kind of on the fence over capital punishment, but public executions and beheading by the sword are grotesque and send the wrong image to society; the sword glorifies the execution.

 

[1feral1]

The Inquisition ended 500 years ago. What kind of justice did they practice then?

Look a little further back:

The three ordeals came into being as medieval punishment during the reign of Henry II in England. The ordeals were – fire, water and combat. Those who were accused of a crime faced these medieval punishments to prove their innocence. The fire ordeal involved carrying a hot iron bar for a set number of paces. The resulting wound was then bandaged. If in three days time the wound had not gotten better, that medieval punishment proved your guilt. The water ordeal involved tossing a tied up person in a body of water. If they floated, they were guilt.

Nobles faced their own medieval punishment trial to prove their innocence. Trial by combat. Whoever won the battle was in the right.

Failing a trial could result in a number of medieval punishments. Thieves hands were often cut off. Women guilty of murder faced strangling and burning. Those who hunted the royal parks faced the medieval punishment of having their ears cut off. Other crimes called for the medieval punishment of being drawn and quartered. Prison generally wasn’t an option as it was cheaper to hang, burn, or draw and quarter than house the guilty, making medieval punishment something truly to be feared.

http://www.medieval-castle-siege-weapons.com/medieval-punishment.html

I

What are you smoking Mr O/Cdt?

What does the inquisition have to do with modern KSA law?

Are you saying that in 500 yrs this twisted culture will become civilised? Twisted by our standards, by theirs its as normal as you getting a speeding ticket here.

Go there and even try finding a church or better yet, declare your bible at their Customs office. You'll be in for a suprise.

500 yrs ago their mentality was unchanged, probably even worse. We have evolved into a hold-hands PC society, where criminals have all the rights, and victims have none.

If he has been found quilty of his crime, he pays the price. The KSA will laugh at any attempt by Canada to quash the death sentence.

 

[Lumber]

Are you saying that in 500 yrs this twisted culture will become civilised?

I'm saying that 500-1000 years ago we were no better off, so yes I imagine they will. Maybe even sooner?

The KSA will laugh at any attempt by Canada to quash the death sentence.

You would rather sit silent and idle?

 

[1feral1]

Your argument has no weight. You can't compare us to them.

Responsibility comes with the pros and cons of having dual nationality. I am a dual citizen, and I am aware of my responsibilites in both Australia and Canada.

So if I am caught drink-driving in Calgary, should I get a more leniant sentance if I claim Australian status? I don't think so.

We are all accountable for our behaviour in other countries, regardless of where we live in our own.

As for the arab/islamic culture evolving, well just look what they are CURRENTLY teaching their kids still, both at home and in their own schools. I don't have much faith in that, sorry. It is the 21ct century Lumber, even in the arab/islamic world, they have CNN and computers, fancy cars and money. University educations etc. They are aware of their beliefs and laws, and it works for them. However their beliefs and laws belong over there, not here, and they don't work here, however if you favour honour killings, sharia law and the rest of it, feel free to move there. I don't think their prisons are overcrowding like ours are, because the citizens know whats in store if they decide to go astray.

My decisions are based on life experiences in Kuwait, Iraq, Qatar, the UAE, and The Maldives, and current affairs which are todays news, not speculation with student know-it-all mentality, of our own 500 yrs in the past. It was not that long ago (1962) we were still hanging people in Canada, and in 1972 in Australia.

I am far from idle, but if that is the law of the land for the crime he committed, so be it. Too bad if he is Canadian, as being a Canuck does not make you a special case. Not long ago, an Australian was hung in Singapore for drugs. The Australian government protested, and he still did the jig. He too was a dual citizen, but Vietnamese/Australian. A known drug crime related person, whose lifestyle caught up with him, and he paid the price, knowing that if he was caught, the penalty was death.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So lumber because we are westerners we are above another nations law?

From what I have read about executions in KSA they are over a lot quicker then lethal injections or the electric chair.

 

[Lumber]

not speculation with student know-it-all mentality,

It always has to come down to who I am, not what I say, doesn't it?

So if I am caught drink-driving in Calgary, should I get a more leniant sentance if I claim Australian status? I don't think so.

No, but if I were living in Australia and found out that the barbaric Canadians wanted to cut your hands off so you couldn't drive, I'd be appalled.

 

[Lumber]

So lumber because we are westerners we are above another nations law?

From what I have read about executions in KSA they are over a lot quicker then lethal injections or the electric chair.

Bien-sure que non! Our laws do not supersede theirs. I believe that they are more morally right then their, "above" theirs.

And I'm not so much disturbed by the painfulness of the punishment, but the brutal message it sends to the society as to the righteousness of such brutal punishment.

 

[benny88]

No, but if I were living in Australia and found out that the barbaric Canadians wanted to cut your hands off so you couldn't drive, I'd be appalled.

  Be careful of being high and mighty and calling cutting off hands off barbaric, it's just different. As it was said, it's as normal as getting a speeding ticket.



Wes, I'm very interested in your remarks, coming from someone with so much experience in the Middle East, interesting perspective. Although I don't think it's fair to address Lumber by his rank and point out that he's a student as if those things automatically bar him from having a relevant or correct opinion

 

[1feral1]

  Be careful of being high and mighty and calling cutting off hands off barbaric, it's just different. As it was said, it's as normal as getting a speeding ticket.



Wes, I'm very interested in your remarks, coming from someone with so much experience in the Middle East, interesting perspective. Although I don't think it's fair to address Lumber by his rank and point out that he's a student as if those things automatically bar him from having a relevant or correct opinion

Sorry, its usually the snotty-nosed-inexperienced-low-ranked-student-mentality who tend to gobb off that they know all about life on here, a repeat preformance all too often. Of course all through a text book and INet sources. He flaunts his rank on his avatar.

I kind of relate this to reading about open heart surgury, then performing such on an live person.

 

[1feral1]

1. It always has to come down to who I am, not what I say, doesn't it?

2. No, but if I were living in Australia and found out that the barbaric Canadians wanted to cut your hands off so you couldn't drive, I'd be appalled.

1. Actually it comes down to both in your case. Attitude means everything Lumber. Many O/Cdts have the maturity, the sense to listen comprehend, and understand much better than you are showing us on here.

2. Well thats obsurd, and unrealistic, and you are openly demonstrating your ignorance by posting such silly things.

We already know the reality of drink driving is a loss of license or gaol in our countries, and we already know that the pentalty for murder in the KSA is death. So, don't be silly.

 

[Lumber]

1. Actually it comes down to both in your case. Attitude means everything Lumber. Many O/Cdts have the maturity, the sense to listen comprehend, and understand much better than you are showing us on here.

2. Well thats obsurd, and unrealistic, and you are openly demonstrating your ignorance by posting such silly things.

We already know the reality of drink driving is a loss of license or gaol in our countries, and we already know that the pentalty for murder in the KSA is death. So, don't be silly.

1. I have been listening (reading) attentively (just noticed you changed the post where you accused me of being a know-it-all), and I've comprehending everything you've said. Your new, edited post seem to sum up to the argument that "We are all accountable for our behaviour in other countries, regardless of where we live in our own." OK, agreed. I never said we weren't, I said that the laws that this poor chap found himself under were barbaric and they should be changed, period.

  Be careful of being high and mighty and calling cutting off hands off barbaric, it's just different. As it was said, it's as normal as getting a speeding ticket.

2. First, I was being hypothetical to illustrate that I wasn't advocating you be treated under different laws, but that I am distraught by the type of punishments in KSA.

Next, you're both saying that cutting off someones hands ISN'T barbaric? Someone might recall that I put fourth the idea of more serious punishments for crimes to deter crime, but cutting someones hand off? There is no way I will ever accept anyones opinion that bodily mutilation is acceptable, no matter the crime! It's irrelevant that "it's as normal as getting a speeding ticket", cutting someones hand off, flogging or what have you, have no place in the rule of law!

 

[medaid]

I said that the laws that this poor chap found himself under were barbaric and they should be changed, period.

Why? Just because you say so? Because of your VAST experience in Arabic, Islamic traditions? Because of your extensive cultural knowledge? Come on! It's people like you that think everything the Western society does is right, it's correct and everyone else is just plain stupid. Give me a BREAK.

Let's just be honest here, even the OLDEST European country, kingdom, history is merely a fraction of those in the Middle East and Asia. You THINK the Western nations have it all figured out? No. We've got our OWN problems, and laws that aren't effective. You think their punishment are barbaric, but guess what? It's effective and it serves as a great deterrent. Now that being said, their laws are drawn from Religion. If you want to change the laws, you've gotta change the religion. How do you propose we do that huh?

Oh wait... there's already a war on right now due to religion, or rather the extremists who have used religion as the launching point to commit acts of terror against the Western nations. Why? Because of the West's... oh what? wait... say it isn't so.. RELIGION! Also our LAWS, also our CULTURE... when will this ever end?!

2. First, I was being hypothetical to illustrate that I wasn't advocating you be treated under different laws, but that I am distraught by the type of punishments in KSA.

Next, you're both saying that cutting off someones hands ISN'T barbaric? Someone might recall that I put fourth the idea of more serious punishments for crimes to deter crime, but cutting someones hand off? There is no way I will ever accept anyones opinion that bodily mutilation is acceptable, no matter the crime! It's irrelevant that "it's as normal as getting a speeding ticket", cutting someones hand off, flogging or what have you, have no place in the rule of law!

You ignorant... oh my goodness...

 

[aesop081]

I said that the laws that this poor chap found himself under were barbaric and they should be changed, period.

How would you react if someone from over there came here to Canada and told us to change our laws ( after one of their citizens broke one of them) ?

 

[mover1]

When In Rome......

You will find, that on many deployments, we as Canadian Service Men and Women fall under the host countries laws. We are not above them and on your various in breifings the JAG will most likeley tell you so, basically we are SOL.

This kid who is being beheaded, well he knew the law or should have been aware of it prior to doing what he did. After all they were DUAL CITIZENS!
No sympathy here

 

[Lumber]

You ignorant... oh my goodness...

Ignorant of? (Serious question)

How would you react if someone from over there came here to Canada and told us to change our laws (after one of their citizens broke one of them) ?

I'll respond fully to you two later, leafs are on and there's cold beer in the mess.

Cheers

 

[S.Stewart]

Much of countries laws such as the one in question, are based on religious laws not ethics. If one wants to embrace and live among a culture that isnt not the westernized culture that they are familar with one should get familar. If you are going to live in a Country you should abide, and respect their laws, while harsh they are in place for a reason.

Keep in mind a human being did die, while in our culture that wouldnt be ground for death, but many cultures practice "an eye for a eye" if you will. This is just going to turn into a political circus, I doubt the young male in question will be put to death. The bottom line is IMO is that if you going to apparently live in a Country and imbrace their culture, that you should embrace everything, including their law of the land.