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Montrealer sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia

I admit I don't have a vast knowledge of the Middleast, its culture, its religions, its laws, any of it. I just find one theme of this thread to be very hypocritical.

If we are in no position to tell them that they should change their laws because that's just the way it is over there and its normal and its accepted and yada yada yada, then wouldn't that lead one to assume that we're in no position to be in Afghanistan to bring all the changes we are bringing over there, since, after all, that's just the way it is over there and its normal and its accepted and yada yada yada.

Again, I could be way off base with it all. I won't pretend to know anything.
 
ballz said:
I admit I don't have a vast knowledge of the Middleast, its culture, its religions, its laws, any of it. I just find one theme of this thread to be very hypocritical.

If we are in no position to tell them that they should change their laws because that's just the way it is over there and its normal and its accepted and yada yada yada, then wouldn't that lead one to assume that we're in no position to be in Afghanistan to bring all the changes we are bringing over there, since, after all, that's just the way it is over there and its normal and its accepted and yada yada yada.

Again, I could be way off base with it all. I won't pretend to know anything.

We support the democratically elected government. If that democratically elected government votes in laws that appear anathema to western countries, there's nothing we can do about it but urge them to change their ways. Better a democracy than the Taliban
 
Mohamed Kohail evidently committed a capital crime in Saudi Arabia.I assume that Kohail is a muslim and is aware of Saudi justice. His death sentence will be carried out and that is that.
 
Hey Lumber......

You going to answer my question ? It was an honest one so i would really like you to answer it.
 
Lumber I don't know how your answer relates to my question whatsoever.
 
ballz said:
If we are in no position to tell them that they should change their laws because that's just the way it is over there and its normal and its accepted and yada yada yada, then wouldn't that lead one to assume that we're in no position to be in Afghanistan to bring all the changes we are bringing over there, since, after all, that's just the way it is over there and its normal and its accepted and yada yada yada.

Its not that we cant tell them to change their laws, and its not that we arent already encouraging to conduct reform, but it takes time to change a society and the rules they live under. Its just not the Canadian way to go into a country and strong arm them into making legal, social, and cultural changes.

Geez, sound a bit like the the Prime Directive doesnt it?


 
CDN Aviator said:
How would you react if someone from over there came here to Canada and told us to change our laws ( after one of their citizens broke one of them) ?

Well... I don't know all Saudi Laws (at the same time, I don't know all Canadian laws), but from what I do know they can result are much "harsher" punishments. 2-3 Days in jail and a fine for speeding, cutting off ones hand for stealing, public beheading for murder. Like I said, I can't assume to know for certain, but it seems like no matter the crime, the punishments there are worse then here.

So why would someone from KSA want to change one our laws after breaking them? He wouldn't want to make his punishment harsher (unless he's EXTREMELY pious), so maybe he'd want to make them less harsh? Actually either way, he'd be free to try.

OK lets forget picking apart the hypothetical situation, I understand what you were trying to say. I guess my reaction would depend on what he was basing his grievance upon. What factors were causing his desire to have the law changed. If he was basing his grievance on some universal moral principle, I would probably not oppose him very much.

For example, lets say he does not believe in the statute of limitation and  it is his opinion that if you are found to have committed a crime long in the past (say, having stole candy from a store many year ago), that you should still be prosecute and punished. I personally wouldn't agree, but I can see his side of the story, and frankly I wouldn't make a fuss of the change actually came about. If he wanted people to have their hands cut off for stealing, believing such a harsh punishment would deter future crime, I would say that the punishment is to severe for the crime, and that it may deter some crime, but it also would cause resentment towards the institution of law and government.

On the other hand, if he wanted a law changed based on religious or cultural grounds, that I would no agree with.

First! You might say our laws are based on Western culture; they are based on Western values. Personally, I don't see our culture and values as simply "different" from Eastern ones. In some regards, they are. But things such as fairness, democracy, the rule and transparency of the law, and most importantly equality are not merely aspects of "western" culture, they are self evidence truths of the human race. Murder is not wrong because the Bible or the Qur'an say it is so, it is wrong because, well it simply is! You don't need a supernational explanation for it, you don't need any deep explanation for it; it is a reality of nature, just like gravity or inertia.

So how would I react in this regard? If he said "I want it to be a law that women must wear a Burka, because that is part of my heritage/culture" or "I want people to have their hands severed for stealing, because that is Islamic law" (<--is it?), I would say give me a logical reason why these punishment are appropriate, explain to me how they would benefit society as a whole and the individual in question (where appropriate), and prove to me that they will not harm society, and you'll have (most likely) convinced me.

Very controversial view point, and this can't possibly cover all angles. For example, a Sikh in Toronto is petitioning the government to have the requirement to wear helmets when riding a motorcycle removed because by his religious customs he cannot wear any headdress overtop of his Turban. I understand his particular religious custom, and I do not want to interfere with his religious practices. I am without religion, but I am not against religion. However, the law was designed to protect the safety of the individual, and thus society as a whole. I can not see the government to make an exception in this case.
 
Lumber said:
I would say give me a logical reason why these punishment are appropriate, explain to me how they would benefit society as a whole and the individual in question (where appropriate), and prove to me that they will not harm society, and you'll have (most likely) convinced me. 

They've already done this in their country.  Thats why it is part of their law.  Most religious laws are based on valid and time-proven methods of deterance and punishment, regardless of whether other societies consider them barbaric or not. 

Look at our Western society. We were still hanging people here in Canda up until 1962.  In England, women were burnt at the stake up until 1790. The punishment of being drawn and quarterd was not abolished until 1870.  Capital punishment is still practiced in parts of the US.

Other countries around the world are still catching up to the self-proclaimed 'liberated' western concepts - dont expect miracles overnight...
 
Greymatters said:
Other countries around the world are still catching up to the self-proclaimed 'liberated' western concepts - dont expect miracles overnight...

I don't, but someone claimed that 500 years from now the KSA would still be just as uncivilized. I disagree.
 
Lumber said:
I don't, but someone claimed that 500 years from now the KSA would still be just as uncivilized. I disagree.

Lots of people would disagree with the fact that "KSA is uncivilized" .
 
Lumber said:
I don't, but someone claimed that 500 years from now the KSA would still be just as uncivilized. I disagree.

Give it a rest Lumber.

If you're going to use my quote, at least have the intestinal fortitude to quote me proper by using my name, after all I said it. The term 'someone' is demostrating nothing but your contempt and your level of maturity overall. Either grow up, debate with a little but of realism, and stop stiring the pot with the troll mentality.

Islamic countries not only read their koran, but live by it, literally, that is not going to change. With one example alone, look at the Taliban's governing of Afhganistan before the 11 Sep attacks. If it was not for the harbouring of OBL, they would still be doing things the way they were, and they still want to now.

Its your integrity on here, not ours, and not that you seem to care anyways.

EDITed for clarity
 
Some parts of KSA social and civil manners and culture could be considered more 'civilized' than western standards... such as treatment of guests and business dealings... but yes some elements of the population will likely still be following 'the old ways' 500 years from now (i.e. look at some religious groups around today that still refuse to use technology because its not mentioned in the bible)...
 
Meanwhile in the KSA, they watch their TVs, read their INet news sites, see the daily BS and sickening violence committed in the huge western cities, and shake their heads in true disgust.

There is no boyz-in-da-hood crap going on overthere. Yes and near empty prisons too. Kind of makes a guy wonder at times.

In many ways we are uncivilised, but on a different tier.

In their eyes we are the Great Satan, who are stupid enough to pay $100 a barrel for their black gunk which comes from the ground. Not long ago, they were poor, lead a nomadic life, and the main mode of tpt was donkeys and camels.

If it was not for oil, they would still be third world shitholes. Outside the cities they still are.

In Kuwait, I observed more camels in one hour then I did in the first 45 yrs of my life. In Baghdad, I saw more donkeys pulling carts in one day than I did my whole life also.

Lumber and his ilk only gets to see this stuff on the news and read about it on the INet, yet try to show us on here they are the true SMEs, and really know it all.

EDITed yet again for clarity and spelling
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
The term 'someone' is demostrating nothing but your contempt and your level of maturity overall.

The post of mine your are referring to was in a response to someone else telling me that changes in KSA could not happen overnight. I was explaining to him that I didn't think they would. I didn't use your name, not out of contempt, but because I didn't see the need. I was clarifying my position, why bring you in it?

See, I did it again. In explaining to you something about one of my posts, I have not given you the actual name of the above mentioned person, he doesn't need to be referred to by name either. No insult was intended, I appologize if you took it that way.

EDIT: I just checked the guidelines, and I'm suppose to provide name of the person I am quoting. While I was only paraphrasing, I still think this rule applies and I'm sorry that I didn't. Still, no insult or implied contempt intended.

Wesley  Down Under said:
Lumber and his ilk only gets to see this stuff on the news and read about it on the INet, yet try to show us on here they are the true SMEs, and really know it all.

I have done nothing but express my opinions and beliefs have not claimed to be a know it all. True I said that I was taking the "mightier than thou" road in affirming that cutting someones hand off is barbaric, and once again when I claimed religion and culture, while in our laws, should eventually not be part of it at all. That's my belief, and I have faith in my belief. If someone came on here and said "Do not trouble youselves, for all these laws are insignificant, our Lord Jesus Christ is the only real judge," would you call him a know it all?

Wesley  Down Under said:
Islamic countries not only read their koran, but live by it, literally, that is not going to change.

Everything changes.

OH CRAP! Did I just make ANOTHER affirmation? Crap, but I haven't been in the sandbox yet! Guess I am just a know-it-all...
 
Lumber said:
Everything changes.

There will always people that will follow their religion to the letter or to extrem.
That is the nature of the human beast...
 
Yrys said:
There will always people that will follow their religion to the letter or to extrem.


Just like in "western christian" countries.
 
Lumber said:
Just like in "western christian" countries.

? I was not writing about muslin, but religions, including any christians ones.

So I don't understant the point you were traying to make.
 
Yrys said:
? I was not writing about muslin, but religions, including any christians ones.

So I don't understant the point you were traying to make.

Sorry, thought you were trying to say things didn't change.

I was agreeing with you! And reaffirming what I said.
 
Lumber said:
Sorry, thought you were trying to say things didn't change.

Things always change. It may take decade or century for the changes to be noticeable, but live is usually movement.

An example : I've read this week about a young french neonazi. Some people in France are starting to dig to what was theirs
racines in or before WWII. So some of them are discovering past or presents relatives that were jews, but had to appear Christians to survived.
Some really youngs ones were then disguised as Christians so never had  know or acknowledge theirs roots. This neonazi, upon discovering past jews
in his family tree, converted to Judaism.

BUT at the same time, humanity will always, for the foreseeable future,  remain humanity, and there will always be extremists.
Not the same people, or about the same things, but still there.
 
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