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Militarization of Police.

Brad Sallows

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With respect to Gugino's injuries and the use of force debate, the use of force has to be evaluated independently of the injury.  Otherwise an officer gambles with his career and freedom any time he uses force.

(Use of force) * (chance factors) = (degree of injury)

A shove is unreasonable if and only if it is unreasonable for an officer to shove someone out of the way.
 

lenaitch

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The weapons carried by police in Canada is an arms race they didn't start.  For most of my patrol career I carried a .38 revolver which, over time, left the police disadvantaged, in terms of stopping power, round capacity and reload, so they moved to semi-auto pistols.  Similarly, there were many incidents where the police - particularly rural - were confronted with higher powered weapons at longer range; hence, the move to patrol carbines.  Large urban departments have somewhat of an advantage where dedicated specialty teams are close at hand and most often already on duty and available to respond.  Not so with deployed or smaller departments where this type of assistance can be hours away.

Even in the UK, that everyone wants to hold up as the gold standard of unarmed policing, there are currently discussions whether to generally arm-up.  The Police Service of Northern Ireland, and a couple of others, are already fully armed.  I don't know if these discussions will lead to any change but at least it is being debated.

With regard to the 'Buffalo incident', it was clear to me on a video that the victim was holding a smartphone.  No doubt it was even more clear to the officers.  I am reminded of TPS Cst. Lam during the Yonge St. van attack incident.  He was similarly confronted with a smartphone, being pointed to mimic a weapon, at a close but longer range than in Buffalo, but was clearly able to determine that it was not a lethal threat.

I rarely comment on police action that I see on the news.  Short answer is 'I wasn't there', but it strikes me that what took place in Buffalo was not only wrong but ineffective.  Assuming the goal was to enforce a curfew or clear an area under a lawful order, at first contact with the public (the injured victim) the line stalled.  Actually, the group of officers walking on the sidewalk wasn't even really a line, more or a group.  I never was a public order/crowd control member, but would think the proper procedure would be for the line to quickly pass any detainee to an arrest team following behind.
 

mariomike

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Chris Pook said:
Where are the men in White Jackets that used to be available to remove the mentally unstable to a secure location where they could receive treatment?

We carried straitjackets ( that is the correct spelling ) and full-body padded leather restraints.

Our shirts, pants and jackets were Navy blue.  :)

 

daftandbarmy

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lenaitch said:
I never was a public order/crowd control member, but would think the proper procedure would be for the line to quickly pass any detainee to an arrest team following behind.

That's exactly the right drill. Just need to ensure continuity of arrest/ evidence  :nod:
 

Kirkhill

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daftandbarmy said:
That's exactly the right drill. Just need to ensure continuity of arrest/ evidence  :nod:


Good point about the "right drill".  A drill is something that is trained for and which is executed when necessary.  Is that what you are going to get if you don't have an established and current response team that has recently practiced those drills.

In Northern Ireland your Toms spent a lot of hours practicing those drills and had ample opportunity to exercise them in the real world on a daily basis. 
 

lenaitch

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Chris Pook said:
Another point i was making was about the need for Other Government Departments to step up.

Where is the Department of Social Work Flying Squad to manage Domestic Disputes on which the local police can call?

Where are the men in White Jackets that used to be available to remove the mentally unstable to a secure location where they could receive treatment?

Many communities of any size have resources available to assist the police when called.  Most are for follow-up or referral services.  The police don't attend a domestic incident to solve the relationship; they are there to solve the situation.  As for on-duty roving social or mental health workers, some large municipalities have piloted teams of police and mental health worker (perhaps social workers - I am not aware).  Most that I am aware of restrict the team to an assist rather than first response out of safety concerns for the worker.  I believe Hamilton ON does have team(s) that take first response calls.  As for rural or remote areas, the logistics simply are there and nobody would be willing to pay for a level of staffing that would make it effective.  A response might be 'well, they should', but you would now be paying for police, plus social workers plus mental health workers plus Lord knows what else, and all the infrastructure to support them.  If the intent is to have them instead of the police, as mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another, great - the police would generally rather not do these types of calls, but don't expect them to be idling around the corner if things go south.

As for 'men in white coats that took people away', you'll have to help me out here - I have never heard of or experienced that in Ontario.  Involuntary mental health assessment/admission has always been a doctor or police authority, depending on the circumstances
 

mariomike

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Unless they are going to jail, if they go anywhere, it will likely be in an ambulance.
 

Kirkhill

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lenaitch said:
....

As for 'men in white coats that took people away', you'll have to help me out here - I have never heard of or experienced that in Ontario.  Involuntary mental health assessment/admission has always been a doctor or police authority, depending on the circumstances

Lenaitch - I suspect that I might have a decade or so on you.  Up until the 1970s the country was equipped with Provincial Psychiatric Institutions to which individuals that were acting aberrantly could be directed.  Those institutions had their own ambulance teams.  The institutions were "deinstitutionalized" from the 1960s due to a call to deal with instances of criminal mistreatment of inmates and the inmates were released into community care.  Unfortunately many of those individuals were rapidly reinstitutionalized by their local constabulary and rehoused in the provincial jails.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332114380_The_History_of_Mental_Health_Services_in_Canada
 

mariomike

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Chris Pook said:
Those institutions had their own ambulance teams. 

News to me. Where was this?

I worked for the largest municipal land ambulance service in Canada, and the sole emergency ambulance service in Toronto.

I can assure you, it never happened here. If they go anywhere, other than jail, it was in the back of one of our heaps.

Unless, are you talking about routine non-emergency inter-facility transfers? In that case, anyone can take them. We don't do those jobs.

But, if it comes through the 9-1-1 system, we do it.
 

Kirkhill

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Prior to the institution of OHIP in 1966 hospitals were independent entities, some privately financed, some financed by churches, some by local municipalities.  In addition there was a variety of ambulance options including private ambulance companies.  This pre-dated EMS and paramedics by at least a decade or so.

And for the record - I can remember when the 911 system was instituted in Ontario in 1972.  Ontario caught up to Britain which had been using a 999 system since 1938.

 

Kat Stevens

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Anyone remember when Riverview Psychiatric Hospital opened it's doors and kicked all the inmates into the streets? Good times.
 

Kat Stevens

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lenaitch said:
The weapons carried by police in Canada is an arms race they didn't start.  For most of my patrol career I carried a .38 revolver which, over time, left the police disadvantaged, in terms of stopping power, round capacity and reload, so they moved to semi-auto pistols.  Similarly, there were many incidents where the police - particularly rural - were confronted with higher powered weapons at longer range; hence, the move to patrol carbines.  Large urban departments have somewhat of an advantage where dedicated specialty teams are close at hand and most often already on duty and available to respond.  Not so with deployed or smaller departments where this type of assistance can be hours away.

Even in the UK, that everyone wants to hold up as the gold standard of unarmed policing, there are currently discussions whether to generally arm-up.  The Police Service of Northern Ireland, and a couple of others, are already fully armed.  I don't know if these discussions will lead to any change but at least it is being debated.

With regard to the 'Buffalo incident', it was clear to me on a video that the victim was holding a smartphone.  No doubt it was even more clear to the officers.  I am reminded of TPS Cst. Lam during the Yonge St. van attack incident.  He was similarly confronted with a smartphone, being pointed to mimic a weapon, at a close but longer range than in Buffalo, but was clearly able to determine that it was not a lethal threat.

I rarely comment on police action that I see on the news.  Short answer is 'I wasn't there', but it strikes me that what took place in Buffalo was not only wrong but ineffective.  Assuming the goal was to enforce a curfew or clear an area under a lawful order, at first contact with the public (the injured victim) the line stalled.  Actually, the group of officers walking on the sidewalk wasn't even really a line, more or a group.  I never was a public order/crowd control member, but would think the proper procedure would be for the line to quickly pass any detainee to an arrest team following behind.

Welcome to life in rural Alberta, where, when seconds count, the police are an hour away.
 

mariomike

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Chris Pook said:
I can remember when the 911 system was instituted in Ontario in 1972. 

We didn't get it until 10 years later.

 

FSTO

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Here is the crisis response team in Eugene Oregon who seem to have a good relationship with both the public and the police.

https://whitebirdclinic.org/services/cahoots/


Here is a CAHOOTS member who transferred to the police department after gaining de-escalation skills and a need to address issues that CAHOOTS cannot solve.

https://nbc16.com/news/local/from-cahoots-to-eugene-police-skills-that-i-acquired-are-very-applicable


Jose Alvarez (pictured in 2016) traded in his stethoscope at CAHOOTS for a police badge to address some of the more serious crimes he saw. "We often find ourselves dealing with issues around mental illness, drug addiction, homelessness - and that's not classically police work," he said. "De-escalation skills that I acquired in my many years of counseling are very applicable here and very useful here.” (SBG){/p}
 

Kirkhill

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mariomike said:
We didn't get it until 10 years later.

In Canada, 911 service was adopted in 1972, and the first 911 call occurred after 1974 roll-out in London, Ontario.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-1-1
 

Kirkhill

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FSTO said:
Here is the crisis response team in Eugene Oregon who seem to have a good relationship with both the public and the police.

https://whitebirdclinic.org/services/cahoots/


Here is a CAHOOTS member who transferred to the police department after gaining de-escalation skills and a need to address issues that CAHOOTS cannot solve.

https://nbc16.com/news/local/from-cahoots-to-eugene-police-skills-that-i-acquired-are-very-applicable


Jose Alvarez (pictured in 2016) traded in his stethoscope at CAHOOTS for a police badge to address some of the more serious crimes he saw. "We often find ourselves dealing with issues around mental illness, drug addiction, homelessness - and that's not classically police work," he said. "De-escalation skills that I acquired in my many years of counseling are very applicable here and very useful here.” (SBG){/p}

Good part of the plan but as I was reading the article on Alvarez there was this from May 30.

https://nbc16.com/news/local/police-forced-to-use-gas-as-crowd-builds-bonfire-in-downtown-eugene

Police: SWAT team deployed in downtown Eugene after businesses 'destroyed'
 

mariomike

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Chris Pook said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-1-1

Look, I only had to concern myself with 243 square miles of this lovely country.

Whatever Wikipedia says was going on in London, ON was not my concern.

I was on the job almost 10 years before 9-1-1 came in. You think I don't remember?

On Monday, March 22, 1982, at about 0430 hours, a new emergency telephone number for the Metropolitan Toronto police came into being. The new number, "Nine-one-one", replaced the City's twenty-five year old emergency number, 361-1111.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/communications/e911.php


 

Jarnhamar

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mariomike said:
Look, I only had to concern myself with 243 square miles of this lovely country.

Whatever Wikipedia says was going on in London, ON was not my concern.

I was on the job almost 10 years before 9-1-1 came in. You think I don't remember?

Are you really from Toronto?
 

daftandbarmy

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Target Up said:
Anyone remember when Riverview Psychiatric Hospital opened it's doors and kicked all the inmates into the streets? Good times.

I sure do. My sister worked there as a Care Aide back when it was called Essondale.

After they closed, the number of incidents in the downtown east side of Vancouver skyrocketed as all the inmates gravitated there, and stayed.

The Reserves used the empty facility as a FIBUA training site a few times, and it's too bad we weren't able to retain it for that purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverview_Hospital_(Coquitlam)
 

Kat Stevens

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daftandbarmy said:
I sure do. My sister worked there as a Care Aide back when it was called Essondale.

After they closed, the number of incidents in the downtown east side of Vancouver skyrocketed as all the inmates gravitated there, and stayed.

The Reserves used the empty facility as a FIBUA training site a few times, and it's too bad we weren't able to retain it for that purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverview_Hospital_(Coquitlam)

One incredibly creepy old building, all up on that hill and broody (cue the thunder and lightning strike).
 
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