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Militarization of Police.

Kirkhill

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Sorry Mario. I was living in a foreign land .... Up in the Kawarthas
 

lenaitch

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Chris Pook said:
Lenaitch - I suspect that I might have a decade or so on you.  Up until the 1970s the country was equipped with Provincial Psychiatric Institutions to which individuals that were acting aberrantly could be directed.  Those institutions had their own ambulance teams.  The institutions were "deinstitutionalized" from the 1960s due to a call to deal with instances of criminal mistreatment of inmates and the inmates were released into community care.  Unfortunately many of those individuals were rapidly reinstitutionalized by their local constabulary and rehoused in the provincial jails.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332114380_The_History_of_Mental_Health_Services_in_Canada

I well remember the institutions but not the teams - I started in '73.  Any committals we did ourselves or through physician's orders.  I live down the road from an institution that is still operating and about an hour from one of the more infamous ones, now closed.  This thing that always struck me about those 'provincial institutions' is the minister of the day or whoever must have been a real estate agent in a former life; they are all prime real estate, mostly waterfront.

Welcome to life in rural Alberta, where, when seconds count, the police are an hour away.

Same in northern Ontario.  We had a member shot in '82 around 2230.  I was second car in - just under an hour.  Canine was 3 hours once called out.  Tactical was just getting on a plane in Toronto when we got the bad guys - about 0800 the next morning.

Re:911 - it took a long time to roll out across the province.  I did not see it until I was moved back to the GTA in '85.
 

Kat Stevens

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lenaitch said:
I well remember the institutions but not the teams - I started in '73.  Any committals we did ourselves or through physician's orders.  I live down the road from an institution that is still operating and about an hour from one of the more infamous ones, now closed.  This thing that always struck me about those 'provincial institutions' is the minister of the day or whoever must have been a real estate agent in a former life; they are all prime real estate, mostly waterfront.

Same in northern Ontario.  We had a member shot in '82 around 2230.  I was second car in - just under an hour.  Canine was 3 hours once called out.  Tactical was just getting on a plane in Toronto when we got the bad guys - about 0800 the next morning.

Re:911 - it took a long time to roll out across the province.  I did not see it until I was moved back to the GTA in '85.

It's just a good thing all the bad guys will be turning in their guns or it could get bad.
 

Kirkhill

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First of all - thanks to all the usual suspects for bearing with me.  :cheers:

Lenaitch - I gladly stand aside.

In amongst all the yowping there were a couple of points I was trying to make. 

Police officers need to be seen as agents of the community.  Not of the government.  They may represent, and be employed by, the government but they have to be of the community first.  That is the only way that they will feel safe - when the community they are policing is their first line of support and wants them to be there.

For that to happen the police officer doesn't need to be tackling all problems herself.  She does, however, need to know how to find resources, and connect to them in a hurry, to solve problems that arise.  And that assumes the presence of relevant resources.

One of those resources is the Fire Service.  EMS is another.  Tying EMS into a Social Worker / Mental Health specialist / Reworked Psychiatric Care Facility may be another.

Still another could be something like the French CRS - training and specializing in managing violence

And they don't have to be sitting around barracks all the time (or even the old RCMP stations scattered around the prairie landscape that seem to be under utilized).  There is no reason they can't be idle in full view of the public.  They are still a presence sauntering around a neighbourhood keeping their eyes open and reporting to the local police officer.  The police officer has extra eyes.  The community and the police office knows that he has back up.  But the police officer controls the ground, the pace and events.

There is some consultant name of Eaton posting on LinkedIn today referencing Gen Petraeus's experience in Iraq and talking about the need to live with the people to win the people-space or some such buzzword.  He, this consultant, also talked about Peel's view of policing and of police being of the community.  I can't agree more.

I note that D&B finds room to critique the public disorder management skills of the Buffalo Police  Department.  I gather from our long association on this site that he has had considerable personal experience in the field.  I would just note that that experience appears to have been earned as a military QRF offering armed support (suitably armed for the occasion) to the local constabulary as Aid of the Civil Power.  The local police, or at least civilian management, controlled the ground, the pace and events.  Generally.

As to the issue of taking a personal weapon into a melee.  That still wouldn't be me.  I would prefer to go in with a large number of bodies protecting my flanks and rear and the knowledge that I have got armed friends on overwatch. But I joined the infantry rather than the blackhats because I preferred the idea of keeping a hill between me and the bullets rather than a bit of armour plate, even if it meant sacrificing some wear and tear on the joints.

So, thanks again to all for letting me get some stuff off my chest.

Cheers.

 

mariomike

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Chris Pook said:
One of those resources is the Fire Service. 

As one of this union's most fundamental responsibilities, our involvement in EMS has helped us create and save jobs for our members.

International Association of Firefighters ( IAFF ) General President Harold A. Schaitberger
June 12, 2003

http://www.iaff.org/03News/061203has.html

Perhaps a little less enthusiastic since Clovid-19, and as I recall during SARS.

If "Defunding" translates to police layoffs, and not replacing members lost to attrition, just wait until it impacts the fire departments.

Chris Pook said:
Tying EMS into a Social Worker / Mental Health specialist / Reworked Psychiatric Care Facility may be another.

Been doing that for years.

Community Referrals by EMS (CREMS)
https://www.google.com/search?bih=641&biw=1280&hl=en&sxsrf=ALeKk01Ayro-OCj4Cl59jkeNWsm9OLIATw%3A1591977693989&ei=3abjXs_0O4qkytMP-aOFmAU&q=%22Community+Referrals+by+EMS%22&oq=%22Community+Referrals+by+EMS%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDFAAWABg4UdoAHAAeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiP18KH0_zpAhUKknIEHflRAVMQ4dUDCAs#spf=1591977738295

Chris Pook said:
There is no reason they can't be idle in full view of the public. 

Being mobile eliminates "chute time". ie: Responding from station. Just drop it into low gear and go.

Sometimes referred as System Status Management ( SSM ), among other names for it.

That's why we see taxis and tow trucks mobile as well.

We used to get "flagged" a lot.

Chris Pook said:
Police officers need to be seen as agents of the community. 

My favorite example of that was "Car 54". The old TV show. Not the film remake. Yes, I know it was comedy, and a long time ago. But, as little kid, I loved those guys.




 

Kirkhill

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In case I haven't made it clear Mario - I am not in favour of "defunding"  - These are the types of services that I would expect city taxes to pay for.  Along with sewers, roads, power plants and lights. 

I am in favour of redistribution of taxes from city residents towards those services - and a lot less emphasis on social experiments.

Oh. And by the way, as a resident of the Centre of the Universe, you might not want to count on a lot of tax support from people living with generators, septic tanks and a two hour emergency response time.  ;D
 

dapaterson

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Chris Pook said:
Oh. And by the way, as a resident of the Centre of the Universe, you might not want to count on a lot of tax support from people living with generators, septic tanks and a two hour emergency response time.  ;D

Mostly, those folks get tax support from the Centre of the Universe, not the other way around.
 

Brad Sallows

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Mostly, those folks are being supported by the Centre of the Universe because the Centre of the Universe needs those "colonies" to provide the materials and products (energy, food) to stave off collapse into a concrete jungle of howling cannibals.
 

mariomike

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Chris Pook said:
Oh. And by the way, as a resident of the Centre of the Universe, you might not want to count on a lot of tax support from people living with generators, septic tanks and a two hour emergency response time. 

I've been a free man since 31 May, 2009. I can "bug out" to any place in Canada any time I want to. Even to the US or the EU.
I'm here because I like my neighbourhood.

I won't play "house porn" on here. But, I think it would get a pretty good price.

Are you trying to steer our emergency services into another of those lovely urban versus rural "discussions"?

City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124115.0
7 pages.

Or, the ever popular,

Toronto: Love it or hate it?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119520.0
12 pages.

dapaterson said:
Mostly, those folks get tax support from the Centre of the Universe, not the other way around.

Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, said "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#History

Regarding our emergency services.

The only real sure thing in this town is our emergency services.

As for the question, is rural Ontario entitled to the same emergency response as downtown? I remember that one. It was not pretty. Can look it up if you want.

Possibly worth mentioning, our funding from the province ( for paramedics ) was based on the people who actually live here.

ie: The numbers of Canadians, Americans and people from around the world who come here on business, or pleasure, or just passing through on the 401, airport, Union Station etc. are all entitled to, and demand, the very same level of service as we provide our own city taxpayers.

That is something like 27.5 million visitors a year. All demanding the same level of emergency service as we provide our own residential taxpayers.

When the call 9-1-1, we don't ask where they pay their property taxes.





 

Kat Stevens

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Brad Sallows said:
Mostly, those folks are being supported by the Centre of the Universe because the Centre of the Universe needs those "colonies" to provide the materials and products (energy, food) to stave off collapse into a concrete jungle of howling cannibals.

How very Hunger Games...stay tuned.  :D
 

Kirkhill

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mariomike said:
I've been a free man since 31 May, 2009. I can "bug out" to any place in Canada any time I want to. Even to the US or the EU.
I'm here because I like my neighbourhood.

I won't play "house porn" on here. But, I think it would get a pretty good price.

Are you trying to steer our emergency services into another of those lovely urban versus rural "discussions"?

City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124115.0
7 pages.

Or, the ever popular,

Toronto: Love it or hate it?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119520.0
12 pages.

Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, said "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#History

Regarding our emergency services.

The only real sure thing in this town is our emergency services.

As for the question, is rural Ontario entitled to the same emergency response as downtown? I remember that one. It was not pretty. Can look it up if you want.

Possibly worth mentioning, our funding from the province ( for paramedics ) was based on the people who actually live here.

ie: The numbers of Canadians, Americans and people from around the world who come here on business, or pleasure, or just passing through on the 401, airport, Union Station etc. are all entitled to, and demand, the very same level of service as we provide our own city taxpayers.

That is something like 27.5 million visitors a year. All demanding the same level of emergency service as we provide our own residential taxpayers.

When the call 9-1-1, we don't ask where they pay their property taxes.

Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa.  Mea Maxima Culpa.  I should have known better.  ;D ;D ;D

Just a friendly dig.  Not trying to pick a fight. 

My apologies.  :cheers:

Back to Policing (if you like).
 

blacktriangle

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mariomike said:
I've been a free man since 31 May, 2009. I can "bug out" to any place in Canada any time I want to. Even to the US or the EU.

Do you hold a US passport?
 

mariomike

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reverse_engineer said:
Do you hold a US passport?

My wife does.

Chris Pook said:
Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa.  Mea Maxima Culpa.  I should have known better.  ;D ;D ;D

Just a friendly dig.  Not trying to pick a fight. 

My apologies.  :cheers:

Back to Policing (if you like).

 

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mariomike

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reverse_engineer said:
So does my mom, so you're saying we're good to go?

No. I did not say that. Look it up for you and your mom.
 

lenaitch

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Chris Pook said:
First of all - thanks to all the usual suspects for bearing with me.  :cheers:

Lenaitch - I gladly stand aside.

In amongst all the yowping there were a couple of points I was trying to make. 

Police officers need to be seen as agents of the community.  Not of the government.  They may represent, and be employed by, the government but they have to be of the community first.  That is the only way that they will feel safe - when the community they are policing is their first line of support and wants them to be there.

For that to happen the police officer doesn't need to be tackling all problems herself.  She does, however, need to know how to find resources, and connect to them in a hurry, to solve problems that arise.  And that assumes the presence of relevant resources.

One of those resources is the Fire Service.  EMS is another.  Tying EMS into a Social Worker / Mental Health specialist / Reworked Psychiatric Care Facility may be another.

Still another could be something like the French CRS - training and specializing in managing violence

And they don't have to be sitting around barracks all the time (or even the old RCMP stations scattered around the prairie landscape that seem to be under utilized).  There is no reason they can't be idle in full view of the public.  They are still a presence sauntering around a neighbourhood keeping their eyes open and reporting to the local police officer.  The police officer has extra eyes.  The community and the police office knows that he has back up.  But the police officer controls the ground, the pace and events.

There is some consultant name of Eaton posting on LinkedIn today referencing Gen Petraeus's experience in Iraq and talking about the need to live with the people to win the people-space or some such buzzword.  He, this consultant, also talked about Peel's view of policing and of police being of the community.  I can't agree more.

I note that D&B finds room to critique the public disorder management skills of the Buffalo Police  Department.  I gather from our long association on this site that he has had considerable personal experience in the field.  I would just note that that experience appears to have been earned as a military QRF offering armed support (suitably armed for the occasion) to the local constabulary as Aid of the Civil Power.  The local police, or at least civilian management, controlled the ground, the pace and events.  Generally.

As to the issue of taking a personal weapon into a melee.  That still wouldn't be me.  I would prefer to go in with a large number of bodies protecting my flanks and rear and the knowledge that I have got armed friends on overwatch. But I joined the infantry rather than the blackhats because I preferred the idea of keeping a hill between me and the bullets rather than a bit of armour plate, even if it meant sacrificing some wear and tear on the joints.

So, thanks again to all for letting me get some stuff off my chest.

Cheers.

Not wanting to sound pedantic but police are agents of the Crown (law), but I get what you are trying to say.  A lot of what you are describing flows from connections to the community.  They are much easier in smaller communities than large cities but it is still possible.  Back in the day, we have to live in our detachment area.  You got to know the community on a personal level; who was a truly bad actor and who was just having a bad day.  In the days before portables, we ate in restaurants, did foot patrol, etc.  These are very rare now.  Most of this 'informal' community policing was much more effective than the more formal programs, but somebody got to design a big-P program at Headquarters so good for them.

Extra community eyes and ears flow from that, plus initiatives such as Neighbourhood Watch.  Some communities have tried 'citizen patrols' but it never seemed to stick (some defence lawyers have argued that there can be 'agents of the State' issued in terms of evidence they might observe).  Some communities have tried security guards but it isn't cheap and most don't seem to be content to just observe and call in.  None of these even come close to some sort of public order back-up.  Public order events, even in large cities, are numerically insignificant.

I'm not sure what fire departments can bring to the table beyond what they do now (assuming full-time professional departments, not volunteer).  As for EMS, they already do a lot of that.  Authorities for involuntary patients remains an issue.  Expanded mental facilities, at least in Ontario, would be a complete reversal of government policy.  The Province was covered in psychiatric facilities that were closed in favour of community residency and outreach, which has actually been part of the problem.

As for the 'rural vs. urban' question, every resident deserves the same quality of emergency services but not necessarily the same level, and rural residents for the most part recognize (urban cottagers perhaps not so much). meaning a quality of service that the community can realistically support.  Policing density generally follows population density; a full time fire department is simply not supportable, neither are the higher levels of EMS (some areas still have 'first responders', which is pretty basic).  If the guano hits the fan, more and better stuff shows up, it just takes longer.
 

Halifax Tar

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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/defund-police-social-workers_n_5ee12d80c5b6d1ad2bd82777?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=main_fb&utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063&fbclid=IwAR3jO9S8sqoD2Q_Zk844eduqbFoluF4XsQ-H68-Zodzm2bxnYrQuWiJUeGE

Interesting article.
 

Kirkhill

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Ottawa Police Service

Peel's Principles of Policing - Metropolitan London 1829

The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

Police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to the public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

I knew I had seen what I was trying to say somewhere.  ;D

Lenaitch - When I mentioned about the Fire Department and EMS I was thinking, in a round about way, that in an emergency, when a member of the public is panicked and confused, there used to be (at least in my homeland) an ingrained tendency to reach out to the local police to raise the alarm.  That may go back to the local bobby and his TARDIS - those blue patrol boxes - Those were free phones operated by the police at which any member of the public could reach out for assistance. 

The police were the community's first point of contact.  Not a reaction force.  (Something like that, anyway).
 

Ostrozac

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Chris Pook said:
The police were the community's first point of contact.  Not a reaction force.  (Something like that, anyway).
Yes, but we in the Commonwealth have two traditions of policing -- the 'London Model' which was embodied in Peel's 'Policing Through Consent' and the Metropolitan Police, as well as the second tradition of the 'Irish Model' of imposing the rule of law on outlying regions, embodied first in the Royal Irish Constabulary and then in the forces that were modeled on the RIC, including the North West Mounted Police. The RCMP (as well as the OPP and the Surete Quebec) still owe much structurally to 'Irish Model' of top-down imposition of law on areas that are unable or unwilling to police themselves.

Comparing and contrasting the impact of these two models is a part of the discussion of the history of Canadian policing. The RCMP aren't a direct descendant of Peel's bobbies on the beat -- they have a lineage to men in red coats armed with carbines enforcing the will of Parliament.
 

Kirkhill

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Ostrozac said:
Yes, but we in the Commonwealth have two traditions of policing -- the 'London Model' which was embodied in Peel's 'Policing Through Consent' and the Metropolitan Police, as well as the second tradition of the 'Irish Model' of imposing the rule of law on outlying regions, embodied first in the Royal Irish Constabulary and then in the forces that were modeled on the RIC, including the North West Mounted Police. The RCMP (as well as the OPP and the Surete Quebec) still owe much structurally to 'Irish Model' of top-down imposition of law on areas that are unable or unwilling to police themselves.

Comparing and contrasting the impact of these two models is a part of the discussion of the history of Canadian policing. The RCMP aren't a direct descendant of Peel's bobbies on the beat -- they have a lineage to men in red coats armed with carbines enforcing the will of Parliament.

Good Point - And that dichotomy is perhaps one that could be better exploited. 

Local "Bobby Peelers" drawn from the community - controlling the engagements
And the national Imperial Constabulary more actively associated with Investigations and "CRS" or "Redcoat Dragoons with Carbines" type engagements.

Do we already have the pieces in place so that all we have to do is put the em-PHA-sis on a different syl-LAB-le?

In the past I have been drawn to make the distinction between controlling "Places" and "Spaces".  Places are where people exist.  And perhaps should be best policed by locals according to Peel's principles.  Perhaps the RCMP is better to focus on the Spaces where people aren't to maintain law and order, secure lines of communication and provide a ready civilian reserve for crisis management.
 
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