MERGED: Depleted uranium (effects, hunger strike, etc.)

[3rd Horseman]

Acorn,

   NATO admits to 3 Tons fired in Bosnia I dont think thats in dispute. It would calculate close to the number of rounds fired by A-10s but not all. Not trying to pick flyshit out of pepper here.    

Tech data for A-10 round and is mixed 1 to 4(4 rounds DU per 5) " each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium".

 

[Acorn]

Acorn,

   NATO admits to 3 Tons fired in Bosnia I dont think thats in dispute. It would calculate close to the number of rounds fired by A-10s but not all. Not trying to pick flyshit out of pepper here.    

Well, given that NATO only acknowledges 30mm, what would explain it? Is the number NATO gives simply "3 tons," "approximately 3 tons" or something else? If a 30mm DU slug weighs less than a pound, then the 10k+ rounds would add up to approximately 3 tons. No?

You do the math for me. It's your claim. The Talking Bear has been kind enough to provide a great deal of detail (and his "cred" here is quite high), so why don't you do the same.

 

[3rd Horseman]

I defer to the talking bear with the calculator.

Although as I stood on the airstrip at the ammo hanger Aviano and asked the ammo tech in charge of all ammo resupply for the A-10s total DU expenditure he said and I quote " we don't keep those figures we are reloading and sending them out to fast whats in the big bin is about XXXcasings and I just give an estimate on ammo expenditure, nobody much cares and me and the boys are much too busy to care whats important is they come back and they are empty" or as close as I can remember his comment.
Take it for what its worth or will someone dispute I was in Aviano talking to the chief Ammo tech?

 

[Chimo]

I will offer a personal story from Kuwait/Iraq. Our Squadron was deployed there following the first Gulf War in 1993. Our Engineer support to the DMZ included getting rid of hazardous explosives. Our sections spent many a day hauling out tank rounds from shot up T -72  and T-65 Iraqi tanks. Presumably some of these tanks would have been killed by DU ammo. The work was hot, dusty and trying.

When the message came out offering the testing for DU in the soldiers. I did some research and found that the danger was from inhaling particle of DU mainly from dust. I had a legitimate concern as I may have been exposed.

I was tested, saved a lot of urine over a two day period and came back with a result of "lower level then the general Canadian population" or words to that effect. I trust the medical system and it relieved my concerns. If you have concerns, get tested.

 

[Britney Spears]

Although as I stood on the airstrip at the ammo hanger Aviano and asked the ammo tech in charge of all ammo resupply for the A-10s total DU expenditure he said and I quote " we don't keep those figures we are reloading and sending them out to fast whats in the big bin is about XXXcasings and I just give an estimate on ammo expenditure, nobody much cares and me and the boys are much too busy to care whats important is they come back and they are empty" or as close as I can remember his comment.
Take it for what its worth or will someone dispute I was in Aviano talking to the chief Ammo tech?

Not that I have a race in this horse, but why would HE need to account for every single round fired, on the spot? He can wait until the end of the day, and just count the crates left, less from the number of crates be started out with,  right? Someone had to have signed for each of those rounds before they were loaded.

 

[Acorn]

3rd Horseman,

You've claimed above that munitions other than 30mm DU were used in Bosnia, and account for the 3 tons of DU used. Can you provide any proof that other munitions were used? So far all you've said is that "DU was used in wpn X" and implying it was, therefore, used in Bosnia.

Now you you say the ammo tech in Aviano didn't know how much was expended (are you surprised). So where does the 3 tons number come from? Did the Serbs dig it up and weigh it?

You're making claims, so back them up. If you get called on it and can't back it up, just say so.

 

[043]

Good morning all,

I was posted with 1 CER when we deployed to Kuwait after the first Gulf War. DU was everywhere and since then, we have all been tested for DU. The test itself is fairly simple in that you piss in bottles for a day or two (collecting all of your urine), bring it in, it gets shipped for testing and then you get the results. If you are not happy with those results you can send hair samples for further testing.

Your MIR should be able to help you with this.

Chimo!

 

[3rd Horseman]

Acorn,
   You have a point.
   I cannot prove that other than 30mm A-10 DU rounds were used to the satisfaction of this forum if I am only allowed to use public NATO, right wing or Jane's among others info. Personal observation, first hand accounts and left leaning sites appear not to be a valid position to argue from.
What I can say is that:
Spector gun ships (Ghost) were used but the weapons they employed and rounds they fired are buried in OPSEC only those that were involved with the ghost activities can say for sure.
Bunker buster bombs and cruise missiles were used and they are normally kitted with DU for the task of busting hardend sites or sites that require a high heat to ignite secondary explosions beyond hardend shell protection ie. ammo depots. I have provided reference info from sites that support my suggestion that since weapons are kitted with the DU variant war head it would be a simple deduction to theorise that they were used for the task they were created.

On A-10 30mm   -   the 3 tons is an educated guess the ammo tech of course would have difficulty detailling the amount, my point was that they did not care and did not count thus a speculation of deductive reasoning to assume that the count was off. Furthermore the weight of a DU round as posted earlier is .66 of a lb...is that the whole round or just the DU sabo? The DU round is mixed at a ratio of 75% Titanium to DU thus DU is 25% of .66lb is that sabo or whole projectile? At a mix rate in the belt of 4 rounds DU to one of HE then is the calculation total DU rounds fired or full belts? I can tell you that from personal observation that belly bins of the A-10 flying combat missions that I saw had full bellies of no combat mix, which means 100% belts of DU, this is a personal observation and I guess doesn't count in this forum because if it did it may go against my calculation. So the actual count is in question from my humble opinion. If you use my calculation then 10,000 rounds equals 1.7 tons by using the 75% .66lb formula.    

   This probably wont count since it is personal observation but I will throw it out for what its worth you be the judge. A-10s flew few missions over Hidizi, of those they flew they flew well after the initial attacks from bombs these missions were to insure that a couple of tanks that could possibly be salvaged   were disabled with minimal collateral damage. It is hard for me to believe the amount of DU in this area came from those few missions in my opinion it is more likely the results of the hundreds of pounds of DU found in the Lazer guided bombs dropped on Hidizi, just MHO.    

Thanks for the advise Chimo guys I was piss tested and hair tested.

Anyone out there do a demo flight in a ghost in 95 and can comment on the weapon usage?
Anyone in an air job that can comment on a bomb weapon using DU in 94/95?


EDIT:  1,700 lbs not 1.7T should read 1,700 lbs equals .8 Ton thanks below.

 

[48Highlander]

That's some pretty bad math...

.66lbs * 10,000 rnds = 6600 lbs = 2993 kilos

assuming only 25% is DU:

2993 kilos * 0.25 = 748 kilos, or 0.748 tons

 

[3rd Horseman]

Yes you are right it was 1,700 lbs not tons approx which is .8 Tons approx, thanks. So the question is were did the other 2.2 tons go and how did they calc it.  

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The .66 pounds is the DU content of a 30mm round.   The 2,993 kg comes close enough to 3 tonnes in my books - there's no "missing" DU.

From the FAS website:   http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm

When manufactured as 30mm rounds, each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium. The projectile is encased in a 0.8 mm-thick aluminum shell as the final DU round.

 

[Acorn]

   I cannot prove that other than 30mm A-10 DU rounds were used to the satisfaction of this forum if I am only allowed to use public NATO, right wing or Jane's among others info. Personal observation, first hand accounts and left leaning sites appear not to be a valid position to argue from.

Some of us regard any web-site with a political leaning - right or left - with skepticism. There are plenty of reputable sites (such as FAS - quoted above by Teddy). As for personal observations and first hand accounts, they are widely accepted here - once the storyteller has established credibility.

 

[Brad Sallows]

1) I can easily believe, given the density of material, that 3 tons of DU could have been fired off by A-10s.  Aside from local soil contamination (a slow process), the chief hazard of DU is presented when rounds strike armoured targets and a large quantity of particulate matter may be formed.  Now, using common sense, how many rounds should we expect to have "vapourized" and how many are simply buried in the dirt presenting essentially the same hazard as a brick of lead leaching into the soil?

2) Here's the Wikipedia listing of US weapons which employ DU:

The US Army uses the DU in an alloy with around 3.5% titanium. It is used by the US Army in 120 mm or 105 mm calibre by the M1 Abrams and M60A3 tanks and in 25 mm calibre by the M242 mounted on the M2 Bradley and the LAV-AT.

The US Navy used it in its 20 mm Phalanx CIWS guns (though it has now switched to tungsten for this application, as they are not required to pierce armour).

The Air Force uses the 30 mm PGU-14/B amour-piercing round in the GAU-8 Avenger cannon of the A-10 Thunderbolt II.

The Marine Corps uses DU in the 25 mm PGU-20 round fired by the GAU-12 Equalizer cannon of the AV-8B Harrier, and also in the 20 mm M197 gun mounted on AH-1 helicopter gunships.

Note the common characteristic: anti-armour weapons.  If the US has taken to using DU in bunker-busters, I welcome any links that offer proof, not speculation.

 

[STONEY]

Everyone may as well save their breath  3rd horseman will never change his mind never mind that just about every country that had troops deployed in the balkans carried out an investigation due to hysteria about DU & not ONE found any medical concerns. Maybe he was in Gagetown for a day and agent orange is effecting him.

 

[TCBF]

"Any of you black hats ever heard of it? Something about defeating T-72s or some such? "

-You don't necessarily need DU 25mm ammo to penetrate a T-72.  Normal Fin will as well.  DU will certainly give one an edge, though.  Wish we had it.

Tom

 

[3rd Horseman]

Stoney,

    Read the whole thread.

    The Italians don't think like you.

    I don't believe the Cdn investigation into the DU in Yugo was conducted in the correct way, not that it was on purpose just that it was done incorrectly due to lack of information and knowledge. I'm here to get some info so I can satisfy myself of the issue. Most reputable organizations have acknowledged that exposure to DU at the tgt site during or shortly after the DU vapour was ignited is harmfull. Problem is of the CF soldiers tested non were at a tgt location during or after attack, to the best of my knowledge. And as for the studies during later rotos I can agree that 3 to 8 years after the DU attacks it provides little risk to the troops who are in the area. That is the result of those investigations. Im not attempting to get a pension they dont give them past 100% so that is not the reason so why would I be asking the question?

 

[48Highlander]

I think all of us are asking the same question.  What's up?  You're telling me that out of the hundreds of soldiers who have been tested for excess DU contamination, and found to be in good shape, you're the one odd-man-out?  Alright, I'll grant that there's some small posibility that out of the entire 15 year UN/NATO operation, you may be the only one who was exposed to dangerous levels of DU.  So why discuss it on here?  Go get yourself checked out.  Heck, if ou're having problems getting looked at, go talk to Stopford, maybe he can put you in touch with the right people.  Nobody here's going to be able to do anthing for ya though, and he majority have no reason even to beleive you.

 

[luther]

This question is for the 3rd Horseman and others who might wish to weigh in...I am in communication with a very generous individual who has been enlightening me on his experiences in Visoko, Bosnia in '95 and his many illnesses that have been labelled as 'consequential' to his PTSD.  I did some research myself, on his behalf, and found that the UNEP investigated 6 sites around Sarajevo in an elevation area of over 2000m. Correct if I'm wrong here but isn't Visoko in a valley, 20 mi northeast of Sarajevo and would it stand to reason that air/dust would settle in the valley regions? What about the water tables? Also, I read elsewhere that servicemen and women who served in this particular area were not tested. I believe an institution, whether that be DND or VAC should be proactive and test all/ or inform all who served in these areas of concern. He, like you, is just trying to gather info and not being a trusting person (and rightfully so considering all the data/info showing that there is reason to believe a lot is hidden or distorted-just follow the news; it's not conspiracy theory) but a very intelligent person-he is checking all possible info available to him-then he'll make his own conclusions.
I am not military myself but I do research on a computer owned by a generous, former serving member(not the same fella). In return, I read him comments from this site. He laughs a lot and sometimes he swears a lot. Anyhow, he really enjoys your site. Unfortunately, his eyesight isn't what it use to be and as he says, 'them damn computers are great but I ain't no ##@@@ Einstein, you get on there and let me know what's happening out there.' So I do and I've offered to send in his responses. He's concerned that I won't quote him verbatim and he'll end up sounding like a 'wussy' (I've watered down what he actually said.) As for me, I'm a research; I've never served in the capacity that any of you have served. Tks for your time.

 

[q_1966]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U93PBZIyqBs

im just wondering what yours guys take on the video is

 

[GAP]

'Poisoned' veteran begins hunger strike outside minister's office
By: The Canadian Press 11/4/2011
Article Link

LEVIS, Que. - Armed with little more than a sleeping bag and a few pillows, a former soldier who says he was poisoned while serving overseas has started a hunger strike outside the riding office of Canada's veterans affairs minister.

Pascal Lacoste blames his declining health, including chronic pain and a degenerative neurological disorder, on depleted-uranium poisoning he believes he contracted in Bosnia in the 1990s.

The 38-year-old Quebec City resident began fasting at noon Saturday and vowed not to eat again until Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney recognizes that he and other soldiers were contaminated with depleted uranium.

That would allow Lacoste to be covered for the decontamination treatment he requires at a U.S. hospital, he said.

"I had a big breakfast this morning and now I won't eat or drink water, and I'm waiting for the minister's decision," he said in a phone interview. "I'm ready to fight for justice."

The Veterans Affairs department maintains it's unlikely any Canadian soldiers were contaminated with depleted uranium because few, if any, ever came into contact with it while in service.

In a statement, Blaney's spokesman Jean-Christophe de le Rue said that specialists are available to help Lacoste.
More on link

- mod edit to bring headline in line with latest story developments -