MERGED: Depleted uranium (effects, hunger strike, etc.)

[the 48th regulator]

I think Slim summed it up, but I have to throw this one in

48th
    My family doc does not know too complicated for his interest, VAC does not know because I have  not claimed for it, they would know indirectly as it is in my med files.

You are absolutely wrong on both counts. 

My family doc does not know too complicated for his interest,

sorry didn't know you had a medical degree to boot to make an assessment on a Doctor....it is YOUR responsibility to let him know, he is not a mind reader.

VAC does not know because I have  not claimed for it, they would know indirectly as it is in my med files.

Well then instead of claiming for it here and whining about it, maybe if you took the time to CLAIM it with VAC proper tests can be done to assess your injury and help with treatment or claim. As for them knowing indirectly??  What planet do you live on?  The VAC will not move on anything unless you ask them to, trust me I KNOW!!!.

You know,  it is a shame, You could have offered a lot more to this site, other than daily humour.  It is guys like you that make it that much more of a battle for those of us that try to relay the truth and get help....

dileas

tess

 

[3rd Horseman]

Kevin B, you called BS on the below post, Which part is BS. point 1 2 or 3? 

Point 1 {" DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war",} 3 Tons to be exact some 10,000 to 11,00 rounds fired from cruise missels, cluster bombs, A-10s, Spector Gun ships, Harm missles and a few other smaller unusual systems. So who do you think chose those targets and then directed those rounds onto the targets?
Point 2 {"I was on the ground conducting supported attacks by aircraft firing DU into targets we were attacking and fighting through."} I would suggest when one fires DU at a target it is an attack. And when it is destroyed and you occupy it in pursuit of the remaining targets it is fightng through.
Point 3 "Some of the heaviest concentrations of DU in the world are in specific target areas of Bosnia." The NATO information web site on DU detauils that the most DU fired was in GW but in Bosnia it was very concentrated on a few spots.

Your last point below, I never said that and dont think it woud compared to mil tourist. The units that I supported did that.
"So as a deep reconaissance FAC - you crawled around shot out enemy vehicles to do military tourism?"

So you are calling the post BS is it that you dont beleive DU was used or you dont believe soldiers were exposed? I would be pleased to clarify more if required.

 

[George Wallace]

Kevin B, you called BS on the below post, Which part is BS. point 1 2 or 3?  

Point 1 {" DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war",} 3 Tons to be exact some 10,000 to 11,00 rounds fired from cruise missels, cluster bombs, A-10s, Spector Gun ships, Harm missles and a few other smaller unusual systems. So who do you think chose those targets and then directed those rounds onto the targets?

I don't know about Kevin but something about that post strikes me as way out to lunch.   Let's see if we can clean it up some:

3 Tons of ordinance was fired in Bosnia.  That consisted of some 10,000 to 11,00 rounds fired from  A-10s and Spector Gun ships, as well as the use of cruise missiles, cluster bombs, Harm missles and a few other smaller unusual systems.

Now.  I have never seen DU fired from a missile or a bomb, or used in a missile or bomb, yet.  I can accept the use of DU rounds in A-10s and Spector, but not in missiles, bombs and "other smaller unusual systems." 

BS may baffle brains, but we are trying to be factual here.

 

[KevinB]

The HARM (Highspeed Anti-Radiation Missile) is designed to target enemy radar -- it is NOT a penetrator system but a bursting munition - and needs (and has no DU) no dense material for penetration.

AC-130's -- please explain what delivery system for a DU munition?

A-10's do not use DU exclusively they primarily fire a Tungsten Carbine slug in the 30mm GAU-8.


The primary source of DU weapondry is 120mm M1A1/A2 Tank rounds - I dont recall the US being heavily engaged in your UNPROFOR missions...



While I do not dispute DU being used - I beleive that it was used very selectively - with enough target locations that you could count on ones fingers...
  Secondly in order for soliders to be exposed - they would either have to be in a vehicle like a M1A2 that has a DU armour glassis plate that was stuck by a round and airated the DU  -- or crawl thru a vehicle that was targeted by a DU penetrator munition.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

OK, enough is enough.

I had cause, as part of an investigation years ago (yes, in theatre) to have a hard look at the use of DU in the Balkans.   The Americans kept very careful records of rounds fired and eight-figure grid of each location that DU was fired.   Why?   Because the rounds were fired in support of the UN and political considerations required a VERY accurate view of where and when that was done.

First point:   DU was fired in less than 20 instances.   Tons?   Give me a break! Here are the friggin' grids:

A-10 Employment of 30mm Munitions

# Date      Target     #Rounds               Location
1 5-Aug-94 76mm AT Self-Prop Gun 860 43443.2N 18210.9E
2 22-Sep-94 T-55 Tank 120 43523.7N 18170.2E
3 30-Aug-95 Warehouse UNKWN Vic Sarajevo
4 30-Aug-95 Artillery/Bunker UNKWN Vic Sarajevo
5 30-Aug-95 120mm artillery UNKWN Vic Sarajevo
6 30-Aug-95 AAA UNKWN Vic Sarajevo
7 30-Aug-95 Mortar Position UNKWN Vic Sarajevo
8 30-Aug-95 Mortar Position UNKWN Vic Sarajevo
9 5-Sep-95 Hadzici Mil Repair Facility 800 434932.7N 181122.9E
10 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 700 440522.0N 185655.7E, 440525.1N 185653.7E, 440527.2N 185653.5E, 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E
11 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 700 440522.0N 185655.7E, 440525.1N 185653.7E, 440527.2N 185653.5E, 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E
12 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 500 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E, 440540.3N 185642.5E
13 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 500 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E,440540.3N 185642.5E
14 9-Sep-95 Hadzici Mil Repair Facility 350 434939.1N 181117.3E
15 9-Sep-95 Hadzici Mil Repair Facility 350 434939.1N 181117.3E
16 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 400 4348N 1812E
17 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 400 4348N 1812E
18 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 550 4348N 1812E
19 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 550 4348N 1812E

You can find this online here - it is the same list as we used in 2000:   http://www.nato.int/du/docu/d010124b.htm

Second point:   there are only two weapons systems in the US inventory that use DU - 120mm tank (there is a 105 round, but the Yanks don't fire it) and 30 mm cannon.   The latter was used in strikes against armoured targets at the latter part of the war - largely in the Sarajevo area.   No other DU systems were used.

Third point:   we determined that there was little chance of any Canadian being near where the DU was actually fired.   We had one "soldier" claiming DU poisoning from the camp in Velika Kladusa, which resulting in my looking into this in the first place

Last point:   there are NO cluster bomb DU rounds, HARM missiles don't use DU, nor do AC-130s, as others have pointed out.   I will stand corrected, but only with someone who can quote me chapter and verse from Jane's or by an ammo tech. (edit:  Brit has sorted me out on 25mm that do indeed have DU penetrators...Back to the old rule for Sunday mornings - coffee, then post!  The rest of this stands, though.)

Instead of panicking people with complete BS, get your facts straight.

Teddy, out.

 

[George Wallace]

On the point of being factual.
From the FAS site:

The Thunderbolt II's 30mm GAU-8/A Gatling gun can fire 3,900 rounds a minute and can defeat an array of ground targets to include tanks.

At that rate of fire and the amount that you claim as being fired in Bosnia, we can assume that the A 10s alone fired their cannons for a period of less than 5 minutes total.  ( I rounded up I know, it was more like 3.9 minutes.)

 

[Gunner]

NATO has a very good site outlining DU use in Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo.  Not surprisingly, Kosovo had the most incidents of DU use.  Bosnia on the other hand only had 19 confirmed locations (including multiple engagements at the same location).

With regard to Bosnia, they're trying to define down a little more the exact sites of some of the air strikes which were against moving targets, such as tanks. But I can repeat again, as I have before, that all of the air strikes involving DU munitions in Bosnia were either within the 20km exclusion zone around Sarajevo or Han Pijeak, which is somewhat further out and was the Serbian military complex which housed the headquarters of the Bosnian Serb army. There were no strikes in any other area, so anyway that material is on the website and it's again part of what we're trying to do in the realm of transparency and openness, so with that I'm very happy to take your questions.

http://www.nato.int/du/home.htm

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Gunner:  scroll up... (heh)

 

[Gunner]

You won this time, young Jedi, next time, you will not be so lucky.  :threat:

 

[3rd Horseman]

George, Good question here is a partial answer

COGHILL RESEARCH LABORATORIES LOWER RACE, PONTYPOOL, GWENT NP4 5UH
Tel: 00 44 1495 763389 Fax: 00 44 1495 769882
The public at large, both in UK and in Yugoslavia, are unaware that 30 mm bullets being fired by A-10 anti-tank aircraft and probably all Tomahawk Cruise missiles in this action contain depleted uranium (DU).

A more recent case of DU ammunition use was during the conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia. An interesting thing to note is that no major chemical or biological weaponry was used or numerous NBC sites bombed during both conflicts. Even though Yugoslavia has done extensive research into chemical weaponry, no significant amount was used in both conflicts. Hence, the only potentially hazardous device used was DU ammunition. At first, NATO claimed that DU ammunition was not being used at all. No mention was made until a small group of NATO soldiers started dying from blood/renal/rectal related cancers in a very short period of time and the term "Balkan War Syndrome" came into full force.14f New Tomahawk cruise missiles armed with a 3kg DU warhead core were first used in Bosnia
DEPLETED URANIUM
ETHICS OF THE SILVER BULLETBy: Iliya Pesic


Depleted uranium has also been fired by NATO forces during operations in Bosnia in 1994 and 1995,
NATO WEB SITE

The Pentagon used DU in large amounts in Iraq in 1991, in Bosnia in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999.


The number of targets hit by DU rounds through out the rest of Yugoslavia was not reported. About 10,000 rounds were fired by U.S. NATO forces in Bosnia in 1994-95.

In mid-December the Italian government launched an inquiry into why some of their military personnel have recently died of leukemia. Defense Minister Sergio Mattarella had affirmed that "10,800 depleted uranium projectiles were fired by American aircraft" on Bosnia between 1994 and 1995. Without naming them explicitly, Mattarella accused the U.S. military officials of hiding information about DU from allies.

International Action Center
39 West 14th Street, Room 206
New York, NY 10011
email: iacenter@iacenter.org
En Espanol: el_iac@yahoo.com
web: www.iacenter.org
CHECK OUT THE NEW SITE www.mumia2000.org
phone: 212 633-6646
fax: 212 633-2889

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

That's not an answer.  We're dealing with Bosnia here and only A-10 DU was used over that theatre.  What you've posted says nothing that contradicts that, unless you're claiming to have been in Kosovo too??  Want the grids and round expenditure for that conflict?

 

[Gunner]

Here is the UNEP report into Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia.

http://postconflict.unep.ch/publications/BiH_DU_report.pdf

For 3rd Horseman - As you are searching the internet for any type of fact/evidence to support your wildly inaccurate comments, you may wish to stay away from left wing "institutes" that bend scientific fact and reasoning with their own perverted views.

http://www.iacenter.org/

 

[Britney Spears]

Second point:  there are only two weapons systems in the US inventory that use DU - 120mm tank (there is a 105 round, but the Yanks don't fire it) and 30 mm cannon.  The latter was used in strikes against armoured targets at the latter part of the war - largely in the Sarajevo area.  No other DU systems were used.

*cough*25mm Bushmaster M242 Chaingun*cough*

Any of you black hats ever heard of it? Something about defeating T-72s or some such?  ;D

The USMC uses DU PG-20 rounds in the GAU-12 gatling  pods on their AV8 Harriers, LAV25,  and also on the M197/AH1 Cobra. the AC-130 also uses the GAU-12, but apparently not the DU ammunition.

I don't even own any Janes publications either.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

*cough*25mm Bushmaster M242 Chaingun*cough*

Right - M919 round - forgot about that one.

It wasn't used over the Bos, though, nor were any of GAU-12 systems.

 

[3rd Horseman]

The numbers for Kosovo which I am not talking about are around 10 tons of DU Bosnia was 3 Tons

The authors: E. Schmid, Ch. Wirz
The shaped charge technology also employs uranium. By focusing explosives in one direction e.g. by containing them with a conical or concave hemisphere metal liner, detonation compresses and squeezes the liner forward, forming a jet of molten metal traveling as fast as 10 km/s. Jane's website indicated some time ago that DU was used as "liners in shaped charge warheads". Guided weapons ranging from Maverick and Hellfire missiles to torpedoes, sub-munitions in cluster bombs and the first stage of BROACH MWS warheads use this technology. At his website Williams provides an in-depth, up-to-date review of both the HDBTDC and shaped charge weaponry.

 Yes gunner you are right I am going up to NATO site to pull down data to support the contetion of DU usage in more than just a-10s in Bosnia since that is were I read it first.

The contention that only A-10s fired DU in Bosnia, id like to see that proof.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

*sigh*

Well, if you're trying to prove a conspiracy, have at 'er.   All I can tell you is that in 2000, when this was looked into, there were 19 instances where DU was used over Bosnia.   The fact that there are other types of DU rounds available is immaterial to this discussion.   There were all sorts of things flying around Bosnia in 1995 - TLAM, GBUs, stand off missiles (Maverick and the like) - on and on.   NATO says - and they have zero reason to lie - that only A-10 DU munitions were used on strikes in the Sarajevo region, the remainder were conventional.

Here's a day by day account of the airstrikes and the types of aircraft/weapons used:   http://www.hri.org/docs/nato/execute.html

Here's a list of rounds expended - by type (same source):

PRECISION MUNITIONS



TYPE MUNITION               LGB/GBU                            GUIDED MISSLES                       TLAM
                                 10   12   16   24               AS30L      SLAM   GBU-15   MAV

TOTAL                       303 125 215   6                  4              10          9       23                 13

TOTAL LGB/GBU: 653

TOTAL EO/IR:     42

TOTAL TLAM:      13

GRAND TOTAL:    708

NON-PRECISION MUNITIONS

TYPE MUNITION         MK82        MK83      MK84      CBU-87

TOTAL                       175            99        42          2

GRAND TOTAL: 318

OTHER MUNITIONS

GUN / CANNON          20MM       30MM      40MM      105MM

TOTAL                        0          10086        50            350

GRAND TOTAL: 10486

Other:      2.75 ROCKETS - 20     AGM-88 HARM   - 56



Apparently, DU causes brain damage too...

 

[48Highlander]

International Action Center
39 West 14th Street, Room 206
New York, NY 10011
email: iacenter@iacenter.org
En Espanol: el_iac@yahoo.com
web: www.iacenter.org
CHECK OUT THE NEW SITE www.mumia2000.org
phone: 212 633-6646
fax: 212 633-2889

So your source of info links to the IAC and website dedicated to defending a cop-killer?

:cheers:

Might want to rethink that one.

 

[Acorn]

The contention that only A-10s fired DU in Bosnia, id like to see that proof.

Umm, you're contending "tons" of DU in Bosnia. You've been offered substantiated proof of just over 10,000 rounds of 30mm DU being fired in Bosnia - that would amount to your "tons" (or would it - how much does the DU slug in a 30mm weigh? Anyone? Anyone?) Yet you seem to want others to prove that nothing else DU was fired. Maybe you should be proving your own contention.

If I were to say you are an idiot, I'd be expected to prove it. It wouldn't be up to you to prove me wrong. Would it?

Acorn

 

[Edward Campbell]

If good old FAS is to be believed, and we usually do accept their data, I think, then 3.328 tons of DU were depositied.  That's tons, to be sure, just precious few of them.
See: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm

 

[3rd Horseman]

Teddy,

  Agreed all good info easily found up on NATO site, for those that were there all well known. No conspiracy contemplated here, it took until 2000 for NATO to admit DU usage and cruise usage but thats fine it was probably OPSEC since the usage was happening at the time in Kosovo. The UNEP study that Gunner focused me to is also a good source but there is a contention that the UNEP study was focused on mobile targets and specifically A-10 activity, some have claimed that other weapons systems were not in the UNEP study such as cruise and missiles and specter. I agree lots of stuff was around in Bosnia at the time and it may not have been DU tipped but then it may have. That is the reason for the thread possibly someone out there has some info on the usage specifically rather than regurgitating what is found at public sites. The Hiadici barracks were hit with more than a few A-10 sorties.
Gunner has a point about left wing sites and the care that must be taken to ensure that the source is not propaganda but they are sources just like a right wing site is a source.

To all that responded Thanks for the help so far and for the insults well...........what can I say.