Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Navy_Pete]

I get that, but it gives you a baseline of what it takes to do the minimum and then build your crew from there. Also you note this ship is run by the RFA and not the RN.

Had the pleasure to speak to some fairly senior RFA folks at a conference recently, was really impressed. They seem to be a good balance of doing military support things on commercial platforms, and had more training/equipment beyond commercial minimums.

I think being able to straight up run a ship with civilians who hold relevant commercial certifications and giving them a bit of delta training to go above and beyond what the commercial standards are set up for is a lot easier then trying to train a few hundred people in a bespoke training pipeline to some kind of internal RCN standard.

I also think we were idiots to cut out the co-op programs in the various tech colleges and things like the super stoker program out of Memorial where we would pay for their diploma and then give them a delta training package to get fully certified. That has to be the easiest way to add training capacity and instead we will pay people full salary to sit twiddling their thumbs because the in house tech courses are full. Collectively we make some really myopic institutional decisions because it comes from different line items of funding (but is all the same taxpayer pot).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Had the pleasure to speak to some fairly senior RFA folks at a conference recently, was really impressed. They seem to be a good balance of doing military support things on commercial platforms, and had more training/equipment beyond commercial minimums.

I think being able to straight up run a ship with civilians who hold relevant commercial certifications and giving them a bit of delta training to go above and beyond what the commercial standards are set up for is a lot easier then trying to train a few hundred people in a bespoke training pipeline to some kind of internal RCN standard.

I also think we were idiots to cut out the co-op programs in the various tech colleges and things like the super stoker program out of Memorial where we would pay for their diploma and then give them a delta training package to get fully certified. That has to be the easiest way to add training capacity and instead we will pay people full salary to sit twiddling their thumbs because the in house tech courses are full. Collectively we make some really myopic institutional decisions because it comes from different line items of funding (but is all the same taxpayer pot).

Ya the killing of the super stoker/tech program reeks of jealousy and a vindictive action.

 

[NavyShooter]

Problem with the Super Stoker program was that it was 'training for the street not the fleet.'

With the roll-over to MARTECH, there was even less need to meet 'street' standards, and so there was a greater divergence, and even less place for such qualifications.

As we roll back to something 'similar' to the old Stoker world, maybe bringing back these programs to get some skilled folks back in the fleet is a good idea?

NS

 

[Navy_Pete]

Problem with the Super Stoker program was that it was 'training for the street not the fleet.'

With the roll-over to MARTECH, there was even less need to meet 'street' standards, and so there was a greater divergence, and even less place for such qualifications.

As we roll back to something 'similar' to the old Stoker world, maybe bringing back these programs to get some skilled folks back in the fleet is a good idea?

NS

At one point there was a plan in place to actually help the Martechs get the equivalent marine certification tickets, but they walked away from that pretty quickly. In any case though, private industry already has done that conversion package, and there is something similar in place at the provincial level for the e-techs to get a red seal industrial electrician ticket with some delta training, and a number of hull techs get certifications relating to welding, structural, or coating inspections as well which are all sought after.

Sure, there was some training they never used, but we have lots of training we never use already; it's really more of getting throughput when your facility/instructor pool is limited (and frequently get pulled to go to sea due to shortages). Before they killed that one there was a few others that had previously been killed, which IIRC was maybe on comm tech or radar tech side.

Again, not big classes, but if you can reliably add 20 new techs a year to the fleet, that also bring in some industry best practices baked into their training, it's not a bad thing, and I don't know of anyone who didn't have fun doing a two year diploma at Memorial, so really can't hurt as an alternate recruiting tool.

It's a really easy way to add capacity to training, and we already do things like ROTP civvie U and DEO on the officer side for that reason, so really don't see why we need to do it all internally for initial tech training. It's a hell of a lot cheaper as well then adding new buildings, instructors etc, when you can simply run a massively shortened delta course and a bit of OJT. Had it's downsides in system familiarity you get on the typical stream, but when you have a mix of entry streams in the crew it balances out pretty quick, and like the officer side, you can't really tell what path they took after they hit the same cert level.

I mean, if we are going to paint all our ships in dazzle pattern for a potential recruiting tool, surely we can do something that we know worked really well in the past.

 

[Grimey]

Problem with the Super Stoker program was that it was 'training for the street not the fleet.'

With the roll-over to MARTECH, there was even less need to meet 'street' standards, and so there was a greater divergence, and even less place for such qualifications.

As we roll back to something 'similar' to the old Stoker world, maybe bringing back these programs to get some skilled folks back in the fleet is a good idea?

NS

Seeing I was one, I can comment on this. I’d say ‘training for the street’ occurred with a minority of a METTP cohort leaving at the 5 or 6 year point. In my case, that was 1990-91 when my cohort (8501) lost around 10 out of 40 pers ( down from 50 at the start of Cornwallis) to Ontario Hydro who were crying for trainee nuclear operators. From my group who went west, I only recall one individual applying for FRP in ‘95. Myself and most of my peer group from those days stayed for at least 25 years, a smattering to 35. The RCN got its moneys worth. The same can be said for later cohorts who went through Cornwall/St Lawrence College. Can‘t speak for Rimouski or St Johns.

One thing that reduced over time was recognition of time in and service qualifications against civilian equivalents. I released in late 2012 as a post-CHOD tour Cert 4. I went down to my local BC Safety Branch, handed over a copy of my MPRR and a $250 cheque, and el-presto my Power Engineering 2nd class cert showed up in the mail a few weeks later. For current Cert 4 equivalents or whatever the engineering charge ticket is referred to nowadays, that individual would have to write their PE 4th class exams. I guess this is partly some belated recognition on Technical Services BC‘s part that we are no longer a predominant steam driven navy (about 30 years too late) but also being aware of the huge dilution of skills and experience since the switch to a gas turbine navy and especially since MARTECH was born.

What I’ve heard anecdotally from peers who are still serving is that MARTECH is a complete clusterfuck of immense proportions and that most platforms are wholly reliant on legacy trade skills to limp through deployments. The old operator/maintainer model that served the RCN well for decades appears truly dead, and right when those diminished skills are needed to limp the fleet along until replaced by the CSC.

A fast track super stoker course is needed more than ever now, but likely too little and too late.

 

[Kirkhill]

Seeing I was one, I can comment on this. I’d say ‘training for the street’ occurred with a minority of a METTP cohort leaving at the 5 or 6 year point. In my case, that was 1990-91 when my cohort (8501) lost around 10 out of 40 pers ( down from 50 at the start of Cornwallis) to Ontario Hydro who were crying for trainee nuclear operators. From my group who went west, I only recall one individual applying for FRP in ‘95. Myself and most of my peer group from those days stayed for at least 25 years, a smattering to 35. The RCN got its moneys worth. The same can be said for later cohorts who went through Cornwall/St Lawrence College. Can‘t speak for Rimouski or St Johns.

One thing that reduced over time was recognition of time in and service qualifications against civilian equivalents. I released in late 2012 as a post-CHOD tour Cert 4. I went down to my local BC Safety Branch, handed over a copy of my MPRR and a $250 cheque, and el-presto my Power Engineering 2nd class cert showed up in the mail a few weeks later. For current Cert 4 equivalents or whatever the engineering charge ticket is referred to nowadays, that individual would have to write their PE 4th class exams. I guess this is partly some belated recognition on Technical Services BC‘s part that we are no longer a predominant steam driven navy (about 30 years too late) but also being aware of the huge dilution of skills and experience since the switch to a gas turbine navy and especially since MARTECH was born.

What I’ve heard anecdotally from peers who are still serving is that MARTECH is a complete clusterfuck of immense proportions and that most platforms are wholly reliant on legacy trade skills to limp through deployments. The old operator/maintainer model that served the RCN well for decades appears truly dead, and right when those diminished skills are needed to limp the fleet along until replaced by the CSC.

A fast track super stoker course is needed more than ever now, but likely too little and too late.

8,400

The RCN consists of 8,400 Regular Force and 4,100 Primary Reserve sailors, supported by 3,800 civilians. Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee is the commander of the Royal Canadian Navy and chief of the Naval Staff.

Royal Canadian Navy - Wikipedia​

About the Seafarers International Union of Canada
Lawrence River, East Coast and West Coast since 1938. SIU members have acquired the reputation of being amongst the best-trained and most qualified sailors in the world. SIU Canada represents over 3500 qualified, Canadian seafarers across Canada.

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/C...al/Seafarers’InternationalUnionofCanada-e.pdf
As the perennial outsider here I have to say the looking to the civvy world to help the RCN seems to be a bit of a hard slog when the King's Navy is two to three times the size of the commercial fleet - in manpower terms anyway.

And apparently the merchant fleet is being hit by the Baby Boomer Bulge as well if this 2018 article is to be believed.

Canada expected to lose 20 percent of its aging seafarers to retirement within the next five years. This represents a huge challenge for the industry which is projected to increase significantly over the next decade.

Canada Wants More Seafarers

Uncrewed vessels may not be everybody's cup of tea, and they may not be adopted wholesale in the immediate future but I can certainly see ships' complements being significantly downsized over the next number of years with more systems being automated and allowed to operate with only Supervisory Control.


I believe this is the IMO guidance?

• Degree one: Ship with automated processes and decision support: Seafarers are on board to operate and control shipboard systems and functions. Some operations may be automated and at times be unsupervised but with seafarers on board ready to take control.
• Degree two: Remotely controlled ship with seafarers on board: The ship is controlled and operated from another location. Seafarers are available on board to take control and to operate the shipboard systems and functions.
• Degree three: Remotely controlled ship without seafarers on board: The ship is controlled and operated from another location. There are no seafarers on board.
• Degree four: Fully autonomous ship: The operating system of the ship is able to make decisions and determine actions by itself.

IMO MSC Identifies 4 Degrees of Ship Automation

Maritime Safety Committee approved the framework & methodology for the regulatory scoping exercise on autonomous ships.

www.offshore-energy.biz

https://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/Pages/Autonomous-shipping.aspx

Degree 1 seems to be where we're at generally with Degree 2 in the offing. That would seem to be broadly similar to a commercial airliner working with auto-pilot.

Degree 3 and 4 I can see for small vessels accompanying larger ones or for shuttle runs on short hauls like the Vancouver Sea Bus or even Inland River Ferries. I was going to suggest the Digby ferry but having been aboard when she shipped green water in the summer I think I would prefer at least one "pilot" on board so that, like an airliner, I have company when she goes down.
https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/C...al/Seafarers’InternationalUnionofCanada-e.pdf
https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/C...al/Seafarers’InternationalUnionofCanada-e.pdf

 

[Colin Parkinson]

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Committee/421/HUMA/Brief/BR8375345/br-external/Seafarers’InternationalUnionofCanada-e.pdf
As the perennial outsider here I have to say the looking to the civvy world to help the RCN seems to be a bit of a hard slog when the King's Navy is two to three times the size of the commercial fleet - in manpower terms anyway.

And apparently the merchant fleet is being hit by the Baby Boomer Bulge as well if this 2018 article is to be believed.

Part of the reason I argue for a RCFA is that the ships it runs will also have berths and slots for the colleges to run candidates through to get their sea time to build their certificates. This would help the RCN, RCFA, CCG, other government fleets, merchant marine and help provide the future ships pilots that we depend on to bring ships into port safely.
A big part of the shortage is that most people nowadays's don't want to go to see or live in camps, basically anything that removes them from the urban environment and connectivity. We should also be looking overseas for people that want to sail and serve with the reward being citizenship for themselves and family. Since we are hellbent for immigrants, we might as well solve two(possibly 3) problems at once.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Part of the reason I argue for a RCFA is that the ships it runs will also have berths and slots for the colleges to run candidates through to get their sea time to build their certificates. This would help the RCN, RCFA, CCG, other government fleets, merchant marine and help provide the future ships pilots that we depend on to bring ships into port safely.
A big part of the shortage is that most people nowadays's don't want to go to see or live in camps, basically anything that removes them from the urban environment and connectivity. We should also be looking overseas for people that want to sail and serve with the reward being citizenship for themselves and family. Since we are hellbent for immigrants, we might as well solve two(possibly 3) problems at once.

BUt ThAt's whY We sTilL haVe HMCS OriOLe, FOr TrAIniNg - some GOFO, probably, guarding their sacred cow.

(That was terrible to type btw).

RCN seems big on doing things differently, as long as it doesn't impact their pet projects. The MARTECH trade change seemed like a deliberate attempt to 'break the stoker mafia' vice an actual coherent plan, and stupid morale patches, songs, and pins gets more actual resources than trying
to fix it.

Most of the basic skills are independent of the platform on the technician side, and plenty of other navies have 'training fleets' of non-warships for that purpose, so they can just focus on training and not try and fit it around operational schedules and commitments (and therefore get basic maintenance reliably done so the juniour crews are going out on ships that meet basic safety standards) and they can learn how things are supposed to be done vice 'making it work'. Things that would be considered basically emergency operation seem to be normal ops now.

 

[Stoker]

BUt ThAt's whY We sTilL haVe HMCS OriOLe, FOr TrAIniNg - some GOFO, probably, guarding their sacred cow.

(That was terrible to type btw).

RCN seems big on doing things differently, as long as it doesn't impact their pet projects. The MARTECH trade change seemed like a deliberate attempt to 'break the stoker mafia' vice an actual coherent plan, and stupid morale patches, songs, and pins gets more actual resources than trying
to fix it.

Most of the basic skills are independent of the platform on the technician side, and plenty of other navies have 'training fleets' of non-warships for that purpose, so they can just focus on training and not try and fit it around operational schedules and commitments (and therefore get basic maintenance reliably done so the juniour crews are going out on ships that meet basic safety standards) and they can learn how things are supposed to be done vice 'making it work'. Things that would be considered basically emergency operation seem to be normal ops now.

Just did a program on Oriole, the budget is pretty free with that ship.

 

[Underway]

Most of the basic skills are independent of the platform on the technician side, and plenty of other navies have 'training fleets' of non-warships for that purpose, so they can just focus on training and not try and fit it around operational schedules and commitments (and therefore get basic maintenance reliably done so the juniour crews are going out on ships that meet basic safety standards) and they can learn how things are supposed to be done vice 'making it work'. Things that would be considered basically emergency operation seem to be normal ops now.

I give you VAN. Sailing to the Asia Pacific as a training platform. Some core crew with a huge number of training bunks (relative to a normal deployment). They are going to do the dog and pony show. MON and OTT will be doing the pointy end stuff. Though VAN is sailing with a full mission fit and a fully worked up core crew.

Like you said lots of countries use full warships to do training deployments. We just had a Japanese visit of two ships for the exact same thing. The French do a pacific deployment every year and run their entire engineering officer cadre through on that 4 month sail (its their equivelent of CSE Apps). Know a few french canadian speakers who have taken that course as ASLt's.

 

[Spencer100]

Just did a program on Oriole, the budget is pretty free with that ship.

I couldn't believe is was as tiny as it is. When it was in my town. Never thought about it much....till then. Thought it was more of a Tall ship but it's closer to the local sailing club than the USCGC Eagle.

 

[DBNSG]

I couldn't believe is was as tiny as it is. When it was in my town. Never thought about it much....till then. Thought it was more of a Tall ship but it's closer to the local sailing club than the USCGC Eagle.

Its not even the size of Bluenose II or is it III?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It was Goring's private yacht as I recall. Build a replica of the Bluenose or even slightly bigger and modern with Barkentine rig. or contract the training out to the SALTS Society Learn to sail a tall ship with SALTS

 

[Spencer100]

Its not even the size of Bluenose II or is it III?

If the navy needs a sailing ship I think something along the lines of tallship call it the HMS Detroit. It would have some connection to Canada. The Oriole is a sailing yacht. And not even very impressive in today's boating world. It's not even a good recruiting or PR piece. At least the Snowbirds do well at that.

If we need historical navy stuff just look after the Haida and Sackville well.

Sorry I'm not always so negative about these types of things as I love old stuff but I'm not big on this one. As a sailng boat it's nice....but navy use?....give it to the cadets and get a sponsor for it. Or the Royal Toronto Yacht club or the like.

For recruiting.....get a bunch Rigid raiders at places like the Great Lakes put a show on.

It was always fun to watch the USCG doing things from my apartment.

 

[Spencer100]

It was Goring's private yacht as I recall. Build a replica of the Bluenose or even slightly bigger and modern with Barkentine rig. or contract the training out to the SALTS Society Learn to sail a tall ship with SALTS

Well not even knowing much about her before my post up some.

Wiki says she a Ketch. About 102 foot long. Was built for the Royal Canadian Yacht Club and then the Navy League to train cadets.....so my idea was the original idea all along. Perfect go back to that.

 

[Stoker]

If the navy needs a sailing ship I think something along the lines of tallship call it the HMS Detroit. It would have some connection to Canada. The Oriole is a sailing yacht. And not even very impressive in today's boating world. It's not even a good recruiting or PR piece. At least the Snowbirds do well at that.

If we need historical navy stuff just look after the Haida and Sackville well.

Sorry I'm not always so negative about these types of things as I love old stuff but I'm not big on this one. As a sailng boat it's nice....but navy use?....give it to the cadets and get a sponsor for it. Or the Royal Toronto Yacht club or the like.

For recruiting.....get a bunch Rigid raiders at places like the Great Lakes put a show on.

It was always fun to watch the USCG doing things from my apartment.

Wouldn't last 5 minutes with the cadets, it was already offered to the Royal Toronto Yacht club and they didn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Its a money pit pure and simple for a ship that age but the crowds for tours it gets are considerable with crewmembers from the Fleet relaying about life in the Navy and how fun it is to sail the ship and do sailor things.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well not even knowing much about her before my post up some.

Wiki says she a Ketch. About 102 foot long. Was built for the Royal Canadian Yacht Club and then the Navy League to train cadets.....so my idea was the original idea all along. Perfect go back to that.

Whoever told me she was a war prize was either pulling my leg or was lied to as well. thanks for correcting me on that. Wiki said she was owned by the Navy League for awhile. To be honest a modern steel hull sailing ship would be best for a training ship.

 

[Maxman1]

Might have confused her with USCGC Eagle, formerly the Horst Wessel sailing training ship built for the Kriegsmarine and transferred to the US Coast Guard as war reparations.

 

[Stoker]

Interesting. Announced today.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Interesting. Announced today.
View attachment 78799

Wow, that's a massive change, and a month is a very short time to transition. There is a huge number of SNC personnel with a massive amount of relevant situational awareness on what is happening on the ships, repair plans etc that may get lost in the turnover.

The AJISS ISSC has lagged because it takes a while to hire people and get them up to speed, so will be interesting to see what happens. Plus all the warehousing, contracting, maintenance records etc.

I'm not an SNC fan, but the actual people involved in MWAV do a good job supporting the ships in the context of what we ask them to do and associated restrctions they have, and I think all the ship managers are retired sailors that have some skin in the game and care about the ship's condition from the perspective of the people that have to actually sail them.

Note to self; really good reason to avoid a posting to the Non Combatant desk.