Logistic Vehicle Modernization Project - Replacing everything from LUVW to SHLVW

[dangerboy]

Most of the techs are smart and don't need to be "certified" to work on vehicle X and not vehicle Y, when both are trucks using basically the same principles.

From what I understand this is how the EME school is training it's vehicle techs right now.  They call  it a systems based approach where they teach the basic/principles of the component (such as brakes) and not how a specific vehicle such as an HLVW's brakes work.  There are exceptions with specialty vehicles such as a Leo 2.

 

[MilEME09]

From what I understand this is how the EME school is training it's vehicle techs right now.  They call  it a systems based approach where they teach the basic/principles of the component (such as brakes) and not how a specific vehicle such as an HLVW's brakes work.  There are exceptions with specialty vehicles such as a Leo 2.

thats exactly how it is now, as for the ERC project Oshkosh will be offering their 10x10 Multi mission recovery system, which has a crane that can lift 34,019 Kg, its a beast of a machine and would love to see it as the new wreaker in the CF

 

[blackberet17]

Do you need Million Dollar Buggies (TAPV) - or even $100,000 G Wagons?

Would $25000 Jeeps and Milcots get the job done for you?

For Dom Ops, what we require is a veh platform which allows us to do our jobs.

For pers and crew trg purposes, we need a veh platform which will provide the trg required for the crew IOT ease the transition to a RegF platform (i.e. TAPV, LAV, Coyote) - if such requirement occurs (deployment, CT, etc.) - minus of course the need for platform-specific trg (TOC, dvr, etc.).

Milcot doesn't fit the bill, unless you plan on installing a turret.

$25,000 Jeeps? Questions:

1) can a turret be installed, with wpns system, while maintaining vehicle stability?
2) can it carry a comms suite, a 3-4 pers crew, plus kit, and tools?
3) what is its armour capability?

I've seen pictures from the late 80s early 90s, when some PRes Armd Recce units had Buick Rendez-Vous and Aztecs. Doing recce in a white or silver Aztec is not how we do our job.

If someone can source a Jeep, which fills the above, plus has improved off-road capabilities; some armour; can be repaired locally without our veh techs getting their knickers in a knot; can run double bank comms on its existing power supply; plus all the other stuff I'm forgetting right now; for $25,000? Why hasn't someone done this already?

LUVW was about $180,000 per unit, apparently.

Sadly, when we could have purchased some HMMWV our American counterparts had going spare and were trying to offload at a rumoured $90,000 per unit...

 

[KerryBlue]

$25,000 Jeeps? Questions:

1) can a turret be installed, with wpns system, while maintaining vehicle stability?
2) can it carry a comms suite, a 3-4 pers crew, plus kit, and tools?
3) what is its armour capability?

For the jeep why not something like Israel's AIL Storm III based on the wrangler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIL_Storm

Commander version[edit]
The commander version incorporates a 5 door hard top cab allowing for the quick and convenient entrance and exit of the driver and all passengers or troops. A large rear compartment enables the storage of both cargo and communications equipment.

This version comes equipped with an air conditioning system providing maximum comfort in hot climatic conditions. A roll over protection structure (ROPS) maximizes safety conditions for passengers.

Armored version[edit]
The armored version of the Storm 3, designed for protection against light weapon threats, incorporates a heavy duty transfer case and a specially designed suspension system which includes heavy duty springs (front - coil, rear - leaf) and shock absorbers, together with rigid heavy duty axles allowing for a smooth and safe ride on both rough terrain as well as regular highways.

Reconnaissance & Patrol version[edit]
The Storm 3 reconnaissance and patrol model allows for extra stowage of fuel, water and equipment. This version is especially suited to be fitted with various machine gun or special equipment mountings.

Doubt they cost under/around 25k though, but they look like a viable option. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Reserve Recce vehicles never had a turret till the G-wagon, the M38 had a proper pintle mount in front of the passenger/TC seat, the CJ5 and Iltis had bungy cord mounts as I recall although proper ones were proposed. Even our Ferrets only had pintle mounts.

Things can be done, with the current jeep

 

[George Wallace]

Reserve Recce vehicles never had a turret till the G-wagon, the M38 had a proper pintle mount in front of the passenger/TC seat, the CJ5 and Iltis had bungy cord mounts as I recall although proper ones were proposed. Even our Ferrets only had pintle mounts.

It was an easy mod to reinforce the 'Dog Leg' mount onto the M38.  The civilian pattern CJ 5 had too weak a body to properly accept mounting the 'Dog Leg'.  Both the 'Mutt" and Iltis had roll bars that took away from the low profiles of the M38 and CJ's.  Also, both the 'Mutt" (M151A2) and Iltis were unibody construction which added to modification problems.

 

[Kirkhill]

With respect to the $25,000 Jeep.  There is the Jeep and there is the stuff you hang on it.

The stuff you hang on it should be transferable to another vehicle so as to prevent writing off everything when you bust a cross-member and can't weld it back together again.

With respect to fuel commonality - diesel Wranglers have been selling in Australia for a few years now, the same place that required the 6x6 G-Wagon to be built.  The diesel variant is supposed to be available in spring 2015.

Vehicle style: Five-door heavy-duty SUV wagon
Price: $44,000 (plus on-road costs)
Engine/trans: 2.8 litre turbo-diesel | 5spd automatic
Fuel consumption listed: 8.8 l/100km | Tested: 10.2 l/100km


2.8 litre CRD DOHC 16V 4-cylinder turbo diesel
5-speed Automatic Transmission
147kW@3,600rpm, 460Nm@1,600-2,600rpm
Command-Trac, manual, part-time, shift-on-the-fly transfer case
Heavy-duty suspension: front and rear feature 5-link solid axles with coil springs, heavy-duty monotube gas-charged shock absorbers
Four-wheel disc anti-lock brake system (ABS)
Dana 30 heavy-duty solid front axle, and Dana 44 heavy-duty solid rear axle
Turning circle: 10.4m

Towing capacity (braked) is 2.0 tonne, and 750kg unbraked;

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/59405/jeep-wrangler-diesel--review-2014-unlimited-sport-28-crd-automatic

$25,000?  US Dollars vice Aussie Dollars.  Bulk buy of assembly line options.  No Canadianization.  No Militarization.  Just a Jeep.  Even if the price were $45000 you would still have a competitive option.

 

[blackberet17]

Ahh, if only we weren't phasing out the .50...

You just KNOW the higher powers will want it a) Canadianized; and b) Militarized. Which is what spiraled the cost of the LUVW from a $60,000 veh (non-Cdn and non-mil, of course) to $180,000 veh...

I wonder if that was before or after it was painted green...

 

[dapaterson]

Careful how you define "cost".

CAF accounting for "cost" include acquisition support costs - staff who write specs, staff in PWGSC who do the contracting, office space, travel to see bidders, travel to work with suppliers; maintenance costs - two years of spares or costs of extended warranties, plus technical publications in both official languages; training costs for conversion and steady-state training (which are supposed to include the class A reserve pay for reserve personnel), including any new training devices needed; infra costs - new parking lots or whatever that are needed... oh, and the cost that's paid to acquire the equipment in question.

So it's not accurate to say that DND paid $180K per vehicle; it's accurate to say that it cost DND $180K each to acquire the vehicle.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Ahh, if only we weren't phasing out the .50...

You just KNOW the higher powers will want it a) Canadianized; and b) Militarized. Which is what spiraled the cost of the LUVW from a $60,000 veh (non-Cdn and non-mil, of course) to $180,000 veh...

I wonder if that was before or after it was painted green...

  Let me see ? That will make it the third or fourth time we've phased the .50 out of service ?
 

 

[OldSolduer]

Just my thoughts, but another NATO nation across the pond seems to have beat this one into submission with Land Rovers.

Personally I think the Jeep brand is a bit on the light side to mount MGs etc on.

 

[Kirkhill]

Perhaps they are a bit on the light side Jim, but the reason I like them for duty and training over here is that they are available, they are cheap and they have a chain of supply that allows them to be repaired or replaced cheaply.

Landrover is popular in Britain for exactly those reasons. Likewise Peugeots and Mercedes on the Continent.

Non Sequitur Alert!

This discussion got me to thinking about a Richard Holmes' book "Tommy" and his discussion about horses in the British Army of 1914.

The BEF had one Cavalry Division that required 10000 horses.  It also required 6000 horses for each of its four Infantry Divisions.  Infantry didn't need many fewer than the Cavalry, in fact collectively it required more.  Still, the requirement was infinitessimal compared to the Continental requirements so Britain didn't have a State Breeding programme.  It bought horses from trade and then assigned available horses to duties depending on their suitability.

It is not recorded that anybody demanded of the breeders, state sponsored or otherwise, that they supply a proposal for a six legged horse.

 

[OldSolduer]

Kirkwall agreed that the logistics would demand we should use the Jeep chassis. I have a buddy that has a Jeep and she does the rock crawling thing with it. She may have some suggestions.

 

[MilEME09]

Kirkwall agreed that the logistics would demand we should use the Jeep chassis. I have a buddy that has a Jeep and she does the rock crawling thing with it. She may have some suggestions.

I would say the smart thing to do, is start with the bare bones chassis and work our way up into what we need. A couple MG mounts, an amp, radios, etc... now lets see what we need to do to the chassis to fit all this kit and make it work.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Careful how you define "cost".

CAF accounting for "cost" include acquisition support costs - staff who write specs, staff in PWGSC who do the contracting, office space, travel to see bidders, travel to work with suppliers; maintenance costs - two years of spares or costs of extended warranties, plus technical publications in both official languages; training costs for conversion and steady-state training (which are supposed to include the class A reserve pay for reserve personnel), including any new training devices needed; infra costs - new parking lots or whatever that are needed... oh, and the cost that's paid to acquire the equipment in question.

So it's not accurate to say that DND paid $180K per vehicle; it's accurate to say that it cost DND $180K each to acquire the vehicle.

Most of the Reserve units in Vancouver are losing parking, not gaining any despite any vehicle buy.

 

[Kirkhill]

I would say the smart thing to do, is start with the bare bones chassis and work our way up into what we need. A couple MG mounts, an amp, radios, etc... now lets see what we need to do to the chassis to fit all this kit and make it work.

And thereby hangs the tale:  What we need.

When a dismounted group of soldiers is confronted with a task they are limited by the number of soldiers and the strength of their backs as to what to carry.  They then have to decide what is critical to the task and decide what they are taking, what they are leaving and how they are going to distribute the load among themselves. They don't have the luxury of carrying an axe to knock down doors if no doors are expected to be encountered.  Some stuff gets carried in echelon vehicles. Some stuff gets delivered when necessary. Some stuff just gets done without.

When vehicles get involved everybody suddenly wants to carry everything on every vehicle.... just in case.  A modern variant of the 18th century train of servants, doxies, mess silver and hunting suites that Generals like Howe, Cornwallis and Marlborough had to constantly struggle against.

Why not start with the proposition that a vehicle, like a man or a horse, has finite capabilities and then accommodate the limitations of the vehicle in the mission planning.  Decide what is going to stay behind, what is going to be held by the SQ and what you can carry in the terrain you are going to cross without breaking axles every two miles.

Camels and elephants have their place but we can only supply horses.

The art of engineering solutions lies in working with that which is available immediately.  Leave building super-machines to people that have the luxury of unlimited time and unlimited budgets.  You can buy it when they get it right.

 

[blackberet17]

Careful how you define "cost".

CAF accounting for "cost" include acquisition support costs - staff who write specs, staff in PWGSC who do the contracting, office space, travel to see bidders, travel to work with suppliers; maintenance costs - two years of spares or costs of extended warranties, plus technical publications in both official languages; training costs for conversion and steady-state training (which are supposed to include the class A reserve pay for reserve personnel), including any new training devices needed; infra costs - new parking lots or whatever that are needed... oh, and the cost that's paid to acquire the equipment in question.

So it's not accurate to say that DND paid $180K per vehicle; it's accurate to say that it cost DND $180K each to acquire the vehicle.

Apologies, I thought this is what I meant - DND paid $180k per unit, i.e., this was just the per unit cost: buy the veh, with Canadian-Military-ization, period. It did not include spare parts, trg, etc., i.e., what is commonly referred to as the life-cycle cost per unit.

For example, just as the per unit price tag on the F-35A is at $124.8millionUSD, Norway estimated the life-cycle cost for its (intended) 52xF-35s at $769million per unit.

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's the link to the company that builds and supports the Jeeps shown above....

http://www.jgms.com/

And they probably cost more than $25,000 being suitably upgraded, militarized and customized.

 

[acen]

Here is an interesting contender in the ~$150k range: the Polaris Dagor.

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20141016-polaris-dagor-ready-for-action

 

[blackberet17]

Here is an interesting contender in the ~$150k range: the Polaris Dagor.

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20141016-polaris-dagor-ready-for-action

Sounds like a snowmobile, a Polaris...