Life After Arafat
- Thread starter winchable
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A plus.
He's become a larger-than-life personality, and he knows it. Like many dictatorial types, he is obsessed with his own power, hence why he won't allow the Palestinian legislature and PM any real power, and why he has a bewildering network of different militias and security services to "maintain order."
He has singlehandedly set back the Palestinian cause for generations, by refusing the offer Barak gave him before the present intifada began. He could have arranged for part of Jerusalem, and something like 95% of the West Bank. Now that the Israelis have drawn the conclusion that the Palestinian Authority is not interested in peace, they will get less - and that will be imposed by the Israelis against their will.
The intifada he started / allowed to happen / encouraged / defended (depending on one's point of view) has been an unmitigated disaster for the Palestinians. The suicide bombings have destroyed much of the sympathy that the outside world once had for their cause. The Palestinian economy is in ruins - and what little is left depends on access to Israeli jobs. Thousands of Palestinians (and Israelis) are dead. The Israelis, far from being exhausted or beaten, have developed a "bunker mentality" and are disinclined to negotiate, favouring a unilateral solution.
Arafat had the opportunity, like Mandela, to lay the terrorist's weapons aside and use his influence and prestige to build a democratic, unified Palestinian society that the world could have respected. His legacy would have been that of a peacemaker, a nationbuilder, and a statesman. Instead, he chose to let the dogs of war slip yet again, and used his influence to gather more power unto himself. He will likely die in a hospital (with the acquiescence of the Israelis) or in his compound (surrounded by Israeli troops) of natural causes, and not as a glorious shaheed like he always talked about. And he will be remembered as an obstacle to peace, as an unrepentant terrorist, and as a failed dictator.
My two cents, anyways....
He's become a larger-than-life personality, and he knows it. Like many dictatorial types, he is obsessed with his own power, hence why he won't allow the Palestinian legislature and PM any real power, and why he has a bewildering network of different militias and security services to "maintain order."
He has singlehandedly set back the Palestinian cause for generations, by refusing the offer Barak gave him before the present intifada began. He could have arranged for part of Jerusalem, and something like 95% of the West Bank. Now that the Israelis have drawn the conclusion that the Palestinian Authority is not interested in peace, they will get less - and that will be imposed by the Israelis against their will.
The intifada he started / allowed to happen / encouraged / defended (depending on one's point of view) has been an unmitigated disaster for the Palestinians. The suicide bombings have destroyed much of the sympathy that the outside world once had for their cause. The Palestinian economy is in ruins - and what little is left depends on access to Israeli jobs. Thousands of Palestinians (and Israelis) are dead. The Israelis, far from being exhausted or beaten, have developed a "bunker mentality" and are disinclined to negotiate, favouring a unilateral solution.
Arafat had the opportunity, like Mandela, to lay the terrorist's weapons aside and use his influence and prestige to build a democratic, unified Palestinian society that the world could have respected. His legacy would have been that of a peacemaker, a nationbuilder, and a statesman. Instead, he chose to let the dogs of war slip yet again, and used his influence to gather more power unto himself. He will likely die in a hospital (with the acquiescence of the Israelis) or in his compound (surrounded by Israeli troops) of natural causes, and not as a glorious shaheed like he always talked about. And he will be remembered as an obstacle to peace, as an unrepentant terrorist, and as a failed dictator.
My two cents, anyways....
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How could it be anything but a plus? Arafat has rejected every olive branch proferred since he turned his Nobel Peace Prize into a campaign gong. He has even been kicked out of an Arab country, Jordan , because he is a threat to peace and stability.
As recently as this past summer the man admitted that under his leadership his side has used "unacceptable practices". He promised reforms, within weeks the only reform was the lobbing of Qassam rockets into Israeli schoolyards inviting more retaliation because if there is one thing you don't mess with, its children.
The real issue is will his replacement be a honest broker or just an Arafat clone? At least his arch-nemesis Ariel Sharon has reversed his position of intransigence.
Arafat and his driver are driving along in Gaza.
Suddenly a dog runs out on the street and they run it over.
Arafat feels terrible and tells his driver,"go find the owners
and tell them of my sorrow and apologize for me."
The driver goes off to deliver the bad news, and Arafat waits in the car.
Twenty minutes, thirty minutes an hour and the driver still has not
returned. That's it, Arafat goes off to find him. When he does, he finds him
sitting in a family room, surrounded by dancing girls, music playing, a
cigar in his mouth and a glass of champagne in his hand.
"What's going on?", Arafat demands.
"I'm not certain" the driver replies, "All I said was I am Arafats driver.
The dog is dead."
The joke translates much better in its original Hebrew. And I admit to a certain bias.
As recently as this past summer the man admitted that under his leadership his side has used "unacceptable practices". He promised reforms, within weeks the only reform was the lobbing of Qassam rockets into Israeli schoolyards inviting more retaliation because if there is one thing you don't mess with, its children.
The real issue is will his replacement be a honest broker or just an Arafat clone? At least his arch-nemesis Ariel Sharon has reversed his position of intransigence.
Arafat and his driver are driving along in Gaza.
Suddenly a dog runs out on the street and they run it over.
Arafat feels terrible and tells his driver,"go find the owners
and tell them of my sorrow and apologize for me."
The driver goes off to deliver the bad news, and Arafat waits in the car.
Twenty minutes, thirty minutes an hour and the driver still has not
returned. That's it, Arafat goes off to find him. When he does, he finds him
sitting in a family room, surrounded by dancing girls, music playing, a
cigar in his mouth and a glass of champagne in his hand.
"What's going on?", Arafat demands.
"I'm not certain" the driver replies, "All I said was I am Arafats driver.
The dog is dead."
The joke translates much better in its original Hebrew. And I admit to a certain bias.
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May I humbly suggest there will be no change. Not because I am a pessimist, but I doubt his influence during the last few years. "You don't make peace with your friends." Until someone on both sides realizes that fundamental truth there will be no progress.
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A definate plus.
For some reason he walked out of Camp David when Ehud Barak layed a gem of a deal on the table and now we have got to the shitstorm we have now. With any hope, when he is gone, the criminals and the single-state (ie: throw the Jews into the sea) faction will start to lose ground.
For some reason he walked out of Camp David when Ehud Barak layed a gem of a deal on the table and now we have got to the shitstorm we have now. With any hope, when he is gone, the criminals and the single-state (ie: throw the Jews into the sea) faction will start to lose ground.
- Reaction score
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Arafat headed for Paris hospital: doctors
Last Updated Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:29:58 EDT
RAMALLAH, WEST BANK - Yasser Arafat's doctors have decided to send the ailing Palestinian leader to hospital in Paris, France.
The announcement came shortly after Arafat's wife Suha arrived in the West Bank as doctors were weighing the benefits of sending him for treatment in Amman, Jordan or France.
A team of 15 local and visiting medical experts from Jordan, Tunisia and Egypt have been examining Arafat since his health took a turn for the worse on Wednesday. They reportedly determined on Thursday that he would get the best treatment in Paris.
The ailing Palestinian leader had enough strength early on Thursday to perform his morning prayers, but reportedly spent much of the day sleeping and hasn't been able to keep food down.
When he was awake, the 75-year-old Arafat was weak and appeared confused, moving around his compound in a wheelchair.
The Palestinian leader's top aides earlier tried to minimize the concerns, saying he had been up early for pre-dawn prayers and ate a light breakfast.
Arafat hasn't been outside his compound in more than two years. His health deteriorated on Wednesday, when he collapsed and briefly lost consciousness after vomiting.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia by telephone late Wednesday that Arafat would be allowed to to seek treatment outside his headquarters.
Arafat hasn't been outside the walls of the Ramallah compound since May 2002. Israel has said in the past it wouldn't allow Arafat to return were he to leave the West Bank.
Palestinians gathered in parts of the Gaza Strip on Thursday to rally for Arafat as Israeli officials drew up plans to deal with unrest if the Palestinian leader dies.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will meet with defence officials later Thursday.
The longtime leader has not groomed a successor despite heavy lobbying in recent years. If he is incapacitated, many analysts expect chaos to reign while rivals jockey for his job.
Written by CBC News Online staff
Underline is mine. What do people figure the odds are that Israel will let him leave and later block his return (should he recover)?
Last Updated Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:29:58 EDT
RAMALLAH, WEST BANK - Yasser Arafat's doctors have decided to send the ailing Palestinian leader to hospital in Paris, France.
The announcement came shortly after Arafat's wife Suha arrived in the West Bank as doctors were weighing the benefits of sending him for treatment in Amman, Jordan or France.
A team of 15 local and visiting medical experts from Jordan, Tunisia and Egypt have been examining Arafat since his health took a turn for the worse on Wednesday. They reportedly determined on Thursday that he would get the best treatment in Paris.
The ailing Palestinian leader had enough strength early on Thursday to perform his morning prayers, but reportedly spent much of the day sleeping and hasn't been able to keep food down.
When he was awake, the 75-year-old Arafat was weak and appeared confused, moving around his compound in a wheelchair.
The Palestinian leader's top aides earlier tried to minimize the concerns, saying he had been up early for pre-dawn prayers and ate a light breakfast.
Arafat hasn't been outside his compound in more than two years. His health deteriorated on Wednesday, when he collapsed and briefly lost consciousness after vomiting.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia by telephone late Wednesday that Arafat would be allowed to to seek treatment outside his headquarters.
Arafat hasn't been outside the walls of the Ramallah compound since May 2002. Israel has said in the past it wouldn't allow Arafat to return were he to leave the West Bank.
Palestinians gathered in parts of the Gaza Strip on Thursday to rally for Arafat as Israeli officials drew up plans to deal with unrest if the Palestinian leader dies.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will meet with defence officials later Thursday.
The longtime leader has not groomed a successor despite heavy lobbying in recent years. If he is incapacitated, many analysts expect chaos to reign while rivals jockey for his job.
Written by CBC News Online staff
Underline is mine. What do people figure the odds are that Israel will let him leave and later block his return (should he recover)?
D
dutchie
Guest
I admit to have followed the Palestinian-Israeli conflict/crisis only since the beginning of the most recent intifada, so my historical reference is a little short. But from what I gather from the news and my own perceptions, it seems Arafat has been sidelined in recent years by his own pig-headedness. As mentioned earlier, he was offered a 'sweetheart' of a deal, and turned it down, and this, IMHO, has significantly reduced his credibility/authority to many Palestinians. His reluctance to turn away from terrorism as a means of negotiation significantly reduced his credibility/authority to the West/Israel. Correct me if I am wrong, but I beleive that the US and Israel have refused to negotiate with him for several years. Because of his increasingly reduced relavance to the Israli/Palestinian relations, his death will be far less important than it would have been 5 or 10 years ago.
From what I gather, the biggest impact his death will bring is the power vacuum and the ensuing power struggle within the PLO. He has a history of having a revolving door of advisors/vice-leaders, and often pitted them against each other to maintain his grip on power. I suspect that this is a contributing factor to many of the 'splinter groups' that have spawned from the PLO (mostly ultra-militant) - again, my suspicion, not fact. As well, this internal fighting may spawn increasing palestinian vs palestinain violence, which would probably suit Israel just fine. The longer the Palestinians fight each other, the longer they will be less capable of mounting an effective, co-ordinated, sustained assault on Israel and it's citizens.
From what I gather, the biggest impact his death will bring is the power vacuum and the ensuing power struggle within the PLO. He has a history of having a revolving door of advisors/vice-leaders, and often pitted them against each other to maintain his grip on power. I suspect that this is a contributing factor to many of the 'splinter groups' that have spawned from the PLO (mostly ultra-militant) - again, my suspicion, not fact. As well, this internal fighting may spawn increasing palestinian vs palestinain violence, which would probably suit Israel just fine. The longer the Palestinians fight each other, the longer they will be less capable of mounting an effective, co-ordinated, sustained assault on Israel and it's citizens.
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I'm not sure that this is their greatest worry! [yes, that is understatement]Guardian said:
As to Arafat himself, I can't imagine how anyone else could be more antagontistic to the goal of peace in Israel.
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Pretty much the responses I assumed I would get, which I do agree with by the way.
My next question is, what now?
Personally I think it will take a leader the likes of which the middle-east has never seen to challenge the status quo amongst Jews and Muslims in the contested state and actually work towards building a real state instead of offering empty promises and insincere gestures.
Jew, Muslim, Christian, Coptic, Fetish priest. It would be nice to see a leader who would get past the labels and down to humanity instead of publicy doing one thing and privately maintaining the status quo.
Barring that I see a continuation until one side really escalates things and we all die a horrible death.
My next question is, what now?
Personally I think it will take a leader the likes of which the middle-east has never seen to challenge the status quo amongst Jews and Muslims in the contested state and actually work towards building a real state instead of offering empty promises and insincere gestures.
Jew, Muslim, Christian, Coptic, Fetish priest. It would be nice to see a leader who would get past the labels and down to humanity instead of publicy doing one thing and privately maintaining the status quo.
Barring that I see a continuation until one side really escalates things and we all die a horrible death.
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Guardian said:
They probably would, if for nothing else than for reasons of religious respect.
And in response to Che's comments. Just an aside but there is a school of thought that prophecies that the type of leader you describe will have to be someone from the generation that is growing up now - ie. leaders who have less baggage than those on both sides who have been fighting each other more or less continuously for the past 60 years. The theory being that this younger generation has seen the mistakes and the lost opportunities and have actually learned something positive from them.
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Che,
When you say "build a real state" are you implying a single, multi-national state?
I am a firm believer in the "two state" notion for the disputed area. Any idyllic fantasies about a multi-ethnic paradise should be confined to the works of Chomsky. Infact, this is Chomsky's proposal, and in the past he has used the wonderful examples of Lebanon and Yugoslavia to bolster his case.
Reflecting upon human nature, sadly, I think the wall is a step in the right direction.
When you say "build a real state" are you implying a single, multi-national state?
I am a firm believer in the "two state" notion for the disputed area. Any idyllic fantasies about a multi-ethnic paradise should be confined to the works of Chomsky. Infact, this is Chomsky's proposal, and in the past he has used the wonderful examples of Lebanon and Yugoslavia to bolster his case.
Reflecting upon human nature, sadly, I think the wall is a step in the right direction.
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Ah which is why I'm the soft hearted idealist remember?
Historically, Jews & Muslims have lived together side by side. In fact, though I haven't got the material infront of me. Prior to the creation of Israel, there was a large population of indigenous Jews who fought against the creation of the Israeli state.
I think it's modern notions of "diplomacy" that have created this situation.
I could really go on at length about the problems with putting nation states in areas like the Arabian peninsular and Africa, but I'm in a computer lab and the guy next to me is staring at my screen.
Personally, I think both sides need to smarten up. Which won't happen with status quo.
So as I said, status quo will lead us towards a 2 state situation.
While an excellent leader, can't even begin to describe the qualities they'll need to posess, could potentially reconcile the two.
And you are correct about human nature.
I wrote a little story on another thread once about human nature. I'll search it out later.
Historically, Jews & Muslims have lived together side by side. In fact, though I haven't got the material infront of me. Prior to the creation of Israel, there was a large population of indigenous Jews who fought against the creation of the Israeli state.
I think it's modern notions of "diplomacy" that have created this situation.
I could really go on at length about the problems with putting nation states in areas like the Arabian peninsular and Africa, but I'm in a computer lab and the guy next to me is staring at my screen.
Personally, I think both sides need to smarten up. Which won't happen with status quo.
So as I said, status quo will lead us towards a 2 state situation.
While an excellent leader, can't even begin to describe the qualities they'll need to posess, could potentially reconcile the two.
And you are correct about human nature.
I wrote a little story on another thread once about human nature. I'll search it out later.
D
dutchie
Guest
I am a firm believer in the "two state" notion for the disputed area. Any idyllic fantasies about a multi-ethnic paradise should be confined to the works of Chomsky.
I agree (for what its worth). The inability of Jews and Palestinians/non-Jews to live together in peace in this region is older than Islam and Jesus. Further, the books that are the basis of Judaism document the beginnings of this struggle (IIRC). I'm sure this is not news to most of you, but I think this underscores the preposterousness of any notion that true peace can be achieved as long as co-existance in one state is the focus.
Infact, this is Chomsky's proposal, and in the past he has used the wonderful examples of Lebanon and Yugoslavia to bolster his case.
Further evidence this guy is completely irrelavant, and genrally full of sh*t. Sorry, don't mean to sidetrack the thread.
Sorry Che, I just read your last....could you expand on this: Historically, Jews & Muslims have lived together side by side. & this: Prior to the creation of Israel, there was a large population of indigenous Jews who fought against the creation of the Israeli state.....thanks.
I agree (for what its worth). The inability of Jews and Palestinians/non-Jews to live together in peace in this region is older than Islam and Jesus. Further, the books that are the basis of Judaism document the beginnings of this struggle (IIRC). I'm sure this is not news to most of you, but I think this underscores the preposterousness of any notion that true peace can be achieved as long as co-existance in one state is the focus.
Infact, this is Chomsky's proposal, and in the past he has used the wonderful examples of Lebanon and Yugoslavia to bolster his case.
Further evidence this guy is completely irrelavant, and genrally full of sh*t. Sorry, don't mean to sidetrack the thread.
Sorry Che, I just read your last....could you expand on this: Historically, Jews & Muslims have lived together side by side. & this: Prior to the creation of Israel, there was a large population of indigenous Jews who fought against the creation of the Israeli state.....thanks.
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Not sure this answers the "What now?" question, but any Palestinian peace negotiations are going to be regarded as disingenuous until they put a stop to suicide bombings and get over that whole "throw the Jews into the sea"-thing.
Has Chomsky ever been proven right about anything? That guy's articles are hilarious: 99% of the annotations are from his own previous articles, and yet he has no relevant credentials whatsoever!
Has Chomsky ever been proven right about anything? That guy's articles are hilarious: 99% of the annotations are from his own previous articles, and yet he has no relevant credentials whatsoever!
D
dutchie
Guest
Not sure this answers the "What now?" question, but any Palestinian peace negotiations are going to be regarded as disingenuous until they put a stop to suicide bombings and get over that whole "throw the Jews into the sea"-thing.
Exactly. Pretty tough to come to concensus on anything when negotiating with those whose primary goal is to exterminate you.
Exactly. Pretty tough to come to concensus on anything when negotiating with those whose primary goal is to exterminate you.
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Idigenous Jews and Muslims had lived side by side for centuries.
That's definetley documented, it wasn't paradise mind you, but it was a damn sight better than right now.
As for the indigenous Jews(IE, not zionist) fighting alongside Palestinians I'll get back to you on resources for that.
It's Israelis and Palestinians that will never get along, ever.
The nation state has done more to destroy peace in the middle east and africa than any other advent brought to the "orient"
So, idealistically I picture a unified Arabia, which is impossible, the idea of nationalism is too far ingrained into the minds of the Arab peoples.
But realistically, hundreds of years of imaginary lines in a sandbox have fostered war and hatred more than religion has.
That's definetley documented, it wasn't paradise mind you, but it was a damn sight better than right now.
As for the indigenous Jews(IE, not zionist) fighting alongside Palestinians I'll get back to you on resources for that.
It's Israelis and Palestinians that will never get along, ever.
The nation state has done more to destroy peace in the middle east and africa than any other advent brought to the "orient"
So, idealistically I picture a unified Arabia, which is impossible, the idea of nationalism is too far ingrained into the minds of the Arab peoples.
But realistically, hundreds of years of imaginary lines in a sandbox have fostered war and hatred more than religion has.
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Realistically a 2 state solution is the only solution. In fact Israel's Declaration of Independence on May 14/48 invited indigenous Arabs to stay and participate in the building of one state, its available on the net if you feel the need to read it. The response, invasion by 5 Arab armies within 24 hours.
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Unfortunately, he has (like Michael Moore), a legion of people who, for lack of any ability to think for themselves, rever his word for gospel.
Think of the last few times guys have tried to "unify" large geographical areas. Usually, they get labelled with the term "anti-christ".
I'm not to sure I buy the notion of pan-Arabianism. Warfare has been part of the way they do things since day one - wonder of wonders, it is the way that everybody else has done things as well. The history of human societies can be deduced to tribalism, factionalism, conflict and strife.
Considering that our notion of the Westphalian state came into being in 1648 (and its application to the African and Asian continents much later) I'd hardly blame "lines in a sandbox" for war and hatred in any areas. Interstate warfare is only symptoms of a deeper issue.
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