Legion Poppy Copyright issues (bikers, NHL, etc.)

[2010newbie]

Apples and melons. The ACC does not belong to the NHL and whatever authorization / deal that was worked out between MLSE and the RCL has absolutely no bearing on any talks between MLSE and RCL. You didn't hear about any cease and desist letters, but you also didn't hear about what deal was struck or how much MLSE had to pay to the RCL to put the poppy there either, did you?

Point is that a relationship must exist, so it is feasible to request that relationship be extended and the players wear the poppies for the two weeks. You, nor I, are capable of determining what type of financial remuneration be provided or negotiated for the use of the poppy that would be acceptable to both the RCL and MLSE/NHL. For all we know, MLSE was allowed to use it for free as long as Legion members could distribute poppies at the gates. We don't know and it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Individual teams are franchises, governed by the franchisor which is the NHL. They can't put a registered trademark on their helmet without the NHL's permission (as was already pointed out).

As milnews.ca already pointed out from the nhl.com article, the NHL supports the wearing of poppies:

The most prominent dedication will be the wearing of poppies across the League.

And as you saw during the two week time period, many of the coaching staff wore poppies and many teams held some sort of tribute during that time frame.

That has *nothing* to do with the RCL and it's trademarks.

I'm not suggesting that because the pink ribbon has been displayed that the RCL would give permission. The point is that similar events have happened in the past to raise awareness and the teams/NHL have supported them.

Again, the point is that we should do something to try and get whoever needs to be involved to agree to have the players wear some sort of poppy during the two weeks leading up to Remembrance Day. I'm following Bossi's lead and contacting MLSE to try and find out additional info on how we implement this. Here's what I sent to MLSE:

A discussion has come up between some current serving military and some veterans regarding the NHL and the player's wearing the "Poppy" in the lead up to Remembrance Day. Understandably, players could not wear the typical lapel poppy with a straight pin, but the Royal Canadian Legion also distributes poppy stickers that could be adhered to helmets in a similar fashion that the "Pink Ribbons" have been in the past (http://media.fans.nhl.com/_Hockeys-Cancer-Fight-Hits-Close-to-Home/BLOG/393687/111820.html).

As the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, would you be the person we would discuss this with to try and have this implemented for next year?

Thanks,

 

[ballz]

Point is that a relationship must exist, so it is feasible to request that relationship be extended and the players wear the poppies for the two weeks. You, nor I, are capable of determining what type of financial remuneration be provided or negotiated for the use of the poppy that would be acceptable to both the RCL and MLSE/NHL. For all we know, MLSE was allowed to use it for free as long as Legion members could distribute poppies at the gates. We don't know and it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Really? The legal topics surrounding the ability to wear the poppy is irrelevant? I'm not sure what it's like in Imagination Land but in the real world you have to conduct your business according to the law. It's not the least bit irrelevant if the NHL is offering $1 to put poppies on all their jersey and the RCL wants $1,000,000.... Actually, if the case is that they can't agree on a deal, then that is pretty much the only relevant topic.

the NHL supports the wearing of poppies:

And as you saw during the two week time period, many of the coaching staff wore poppies and many teams held some sort of tribute during that time frame.

The point is that similar events have happened in the past to raise awareness and the teams/NHL have supported them.

Then that should be your first clue that there is a dispute somewhere between the RCL and the NHL, if the NHL "supports" wearing the poppy but won't allow players to do so while they're wearing their uniforms.

Again, the point is that we should do something to try and get whoever needs to be involved to agree to have the players wear some sort of poppy during the two weeks leading up to Remembrance Day. I'm following Bossi's lead and contacting MLSE to try and find out additional info on how we implement this. Here's what I sent to MLSE:

Yes, we should pressure the NHL and RCL (the two parties who "need to be involved") to come to some sort of agreement. Understanding the actual problem sure isn't going hurt that cause. I would suggest, in your efforts and having a contact, you try and find out what the actual issue is (the OP doesn't even have a source for Bettman or the NHL not allowing the poppies), instead of just trying make a lot of noise.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Like I said. Don't use the legion poppy. Make your own.

No need to involve the legion in any of it. They don't deserve the research and discussion your giving them.

Let them stew, suffer and facepalm themselves for letting a public relations coup slip through their fingers.

 

[ballz]

Like I said. Don't use the legion poppy. Make your own.

No need to involve the legion in any of it. They don't deserve the research and discussion your giving them.

Let them stew, suffer and facepalm themselves for letting a public relations coup slip through their fingers.

That would most likely still be considered infringement

"Actions for Infringement
Unauthorized use
One major advantage of registration is that unlike passing off, a registered trademark may be infringed by any unauthorized use of that mark or a confusingly similar mark by some other person""

Using "your own poppy" on Nov 11 would easily be considered a "confusingly similar mark." If they were going to go that route, I am guessing they would have to avoid the poppy altogether. And I'm not sure how you could make a good Remembrance Day sweater without some form of the poppy.

 

[GAP]

Simple....use the Support the Troops ribbon......everybody recognizes them.....

 

[ballz]

Simple....use the Support the Troops ribbon......everybody recognizes them.....

Agreed, and I think they would have to incorporate that, into the jersey if they didn't have the poppy... but I don't see the yellow ribbon as a symbol of remembrance, can't speak for anybody else though.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That would most likely still be considered infringement

"Actions for Infringement
Unauthorized use
One major advantage of registration is that unlike passing off, a registered trademark may be infringed by any unauthorized use of that mark or a confusingly similar mark by some other person""

Using "your own poppy" on Nov 11 would easily be considered a "confusingly similar mark." If they were going to go that route, I am guessing they would have to avoid the poppy altogether. And I'm not sure how you could make a good Remembrance Day sweater without some form of the poppy.

Well, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I profess to play one here, or on television.

IMHO, while your argument might have some legal basis to it, they (RCL) don't have the ballz to use it. (see what i did there ) It would amount to corporate public relations suicide.

If that were the case, why haven't they gone against all other representations, including the white ones they are so vehement about? What you're basically saying is, no one, not one person or entity, anywhere in Canada, can reproduce a poppy in any configuration.

I call:

 

[ballz]

Well, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I profess to play one here, or on television.

IMHO, while your argument might have some legal basis to it, they (RCL) don't have the ballz to use it. (see what i did there ) It would amount to corporate public relations suicide.

If that were the case, why haven't they gone against all other representations, including the white ones they are so vehement about? What you're basically saying is, no one, not one person or entity, anywhere in Canada, can reproduce a poppy in any configuration.

I call:

You can call it bullshit all you want. I actually have an education in this field, and I learned this from a professional lawyer, and I am quoting a current Business Law textbook. I also finished this course above a 90%, so that lawyer doesn't think I am full of crap. My "argument" (which it is not, it's merely a bit of perspective on the issue) does have a ton of legal basis to it.

I am not sure why you find it so unbelievable, considering the recent happenings with the motorcycle group. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103106.0

"A spokesman for the Legion said this rule has been around for 60 years. Every group must legitimately apply to use the poppy, which he said this group has not."

"Martin added unscrupulous organizations are using the poppy on a consistent basis and the Legion has had to be much more active. He said if one organization is allowed to use the poppy, the flood gates would open for other groups." (Like I said, trademarks must be protected or you lose it)

I am not sure why you think it would be different for the NHL. The Legion still has to protect it's trademark.



And the RCL did threaten legal action against people producing white poppies. http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white-news1.html

"It arrived in an envelope, in the form of a legal threat. The Royal Canadian Legion was demanding that we stop making white poppies available in Canada, or else. That was the gist, though expressed in more formal language. According to the RCL’s legal representatives, the white poppy infringes the Legion’s poppy trademark. We have sent a lengthy reply."

"It was the enthusiastic promotion of white poppies by Women in Black and Earth's General Store in Edmonton that caught the Canadian Legion’s eye. The threat of legal action against Earth's General Store brought the issue of white poppies to a much wider Canadian audience."


The trademark is for a "red" poppy with a black or green center (the links are provided on the other thread). That said, a pink poppy with a black centre would definitely be "confusingly similar." Earth's General Store subsequently decided not to continue producing white poppies, so it's not possible to predict how that would have ended up in court.


You're right on one thing though, the RCL doesn't have to go after the NHL legally. They could give them permission to do it, no big deal at all. But personally I'd rather collect some coin from a 2.7 billion dollar business.

What you're basically saying is, no one, not one person or entity, anywhere in Canada, can reproduce a poppy in any configuration.

No, RG, that is not what I am saying. I am just quoting Trade-marks Act. It would be up to a judge, if it ever got that far, to determine if any particular configuration of a poppy is "confusingly similar."

 

[Tyson Fox]

Is it really that big of a deal that NHL teams wear a poppy on their jerseys? Sure, they should be allowed to in a perfect world, but it's between them and the legion to sort it out. It seems like a really trivial thing to bicker about.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Which is why lawyers will follow politicians to the wall, when the revolution comes