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Killing Canadians 'best way': student

Greymatters said:
Has anyone figured out what these would be? i.e. "top ten things all Canadians should value" type of thing?


The government made a step in the right direction with the new citizenship book - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/discover/index.asp

It says:

In Canada, rights come with responsibilities. These include:

Obeying the law — One of Canada’s founding principles is the rule of law. Individuals and governments are regulated by laws and not by arbitrary actions. No person or group is above the law.

Taking responsibility for oneself and one’s family — Getting a job, taking care of one’s family, and working hard in keeping with one’s abilities, are important Canadian values. Work contributes to personal dignity and self-respect, and to Canada’s prosperity.

Serving on a jury — When called to do so, you are legally required to serve. Serving on a jury is a privilege that makes the justice system work, as it depends on impartial juries made up of citizens.

Voting in elections — The right to vote comes with a responsibility to vote in federal, provincial or territorial and local elections.

Helping others in the community — Millions of volunteers freely donate their time to help others without pay—helping people in need, assisting at your child’s school, volunteering at a food bank or other charity, or encouraging newcomers to integrate. Volunteering is an excellent way to gain useful skills and develop friends and contacts.

Protecting and enjoying our heritage and environment — Every citizen has a role to play in avoiding waste and pollution while protecting Canada’s natural, cultural, and architectural heritage for future generations.


I would add a few and might delete one or two of those, but, it's a step in the right direction.
 
Hmmm, some of these things I have trouble getting my own kid to do never mind enforcing it on new immigrants (or old self-righteous immigrants)
 
Some of the guys early on were perhaps a bit too eager to discount this guy as a loon and discount what he says.

I often thought during several large gatherings in the 2006-2008 timeframe "Why in the hell are so many soldiers gathered in one place right now while we are such a large target?  What would happen if..."

To beat your enemy you need to understand them, and when they tell you good ways they want to hit you, perhaps we should listen.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The government made a step in the right direction with the new citizenship book - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/discover/index.asp

It says:


In Canada, rights come with responsibilities. These include:

Obeying the law — One of Canada’s founding principles is the rule of law. Individuals and governments are regulated by laws and not by arbitrary actions. No person or group is above the law.

Taking responsibility for oneself and one’s family — Getting a job, taking care of one’s family, and working hard in keeping with one’s abilities, are important Canadian values. Work contributes to personal dignity and self-respect, and to Canada’s prosperity.

Serving on a jury — When called to do so, you are legally required to serve. Serving on a jury is a privilege that makes the justice system work, as it depends on impartial juries made up of citizens.

Voting in elections — The right to vote comes with a responsibility to vote in federal, provincial or territorial and local elections.

Helping others in the community — Millions of volunteers freely donate their time to help others without pay—helping people in need, assisting at your child’s school, volunteering at a food bank or other charity, or encouraging newcomers to integrate. Volunteering is an excellent way to gain useful skills and develop friends and contacts.

Protecting and enjoying our heritage and environment — Every citizen has a role to play in avoiding waste and pollution while protecting Canada’s natural, cultural, and architectural heritage for future generations.


I would add a few and might delete one or two of those, but, it's a step in the right direction.

      It's nice that the government is giving this a shot, but I don't think this list does it. It is generically applicable to any liberal democracy in the world. If we subbed Sweden in for Canada, no one would be the wiser.

      One problem defining a Canadian value is that we are understated and less prone to Nationalism. We are reluctant to define ourself in a way that exclude any members of our society. We also don't have an anti-hero to our hero. For example, if you ask a Spartan who he is, he'd say he isn't an Athenian, or if you ask a Englishmen who who he is, he'd say he say he's not Frenchman etc. These are some of the reasons why I am proud to be Canadian but it also make the job of explaining our identity to new Canadians difficult.

    I think it is less valuable to rack our brains trying to teach in theory what Canadian values are, than to spend money and effort on integrating new Canadians. When you have situations were children born in Canada not being able to speak English properly, that's where we have a problem. It indicates insular societies that don't interactive with the greater Canadian society and where an alien set of values and loyalties can exist (like the case of our internet toughguy here).
 
Are you sure?
Most people would say Canadians are the opposite of Americans. I would disagree with that but the fact that we compare ourselves and are compared, frequently, with Americans would make them the anti hero to our hero.
 
I 100% agree with BDave.

I think Canadians more than any other define ourselves as not someone else, which is very sad because we are more alike the US than any other two countries, but too many people focus on nothing but our 2% difference.

In fact it's so popular that if PM ever says "The US and Canada are extremely close" he would lose percentage points, meanwhile JC did everything he can to not do what the US did and it made him wildly popular.
 
UoTJustin said:
      One problem defining a Canadian value is that we are understated and less prone to Nationalism. We are reluctant to define ourself in a way that exclude any members of our society. We also don't have an anti-hero to our hero. For example, if you ask a Spartan who he is, he'd say he isn't an Athenian, or if you ask a Englishmen who who he is, he'd say he say he's not Frenchman etc. These are some of the reasons why I am proud to be Canadian but it also make the job of explaining our identity to new Canadians difficult.
If it's any comfort, I self-identify by saying I'm not a Torontonian  ;)

bdave said:
Most people would say Canadians are the opposite of Americans.
I don't know if it's as much that we're the matter to the US's anti-matter as much as we're different than Americans, which ties in with this:
Petamocto said:
I think Canadians more than any other define ourselves as not someone else, which is very sad because we are more alike the US than any other two countries, but too many people focus on nothing but our 2% difference.

- edited to add second bit -
 
Petamocto said:
I 100% agree with BDave.

I think Canadians more than any other define ourselves as not someone else, which is very sad because we are more alike the US than any other two countries, but too many people focus on nothing but our 2% difference.

In fact it's so popular that if PM ever says "The US and Canada are extremely close" he would lose percentage points, meanwhile JC did everything he can to not do what the US did and it made him wildly popular.


You know, the DNA of chimps and humans are even less than about 2% different but we are anything but the same.

I agree that too many Canadians identify themselves as being "not American" but that does not mean that we should reverse that and say that we are, pretty much, just chilly Americans with rude shop-girls.

There are plenty of things that make us Canadian and being Canadian builds upon a whole host of cultural values and influences, only one of which is American - but it is a big one.
 
Your chimps and humans example doesn't change the fact that we are more like chimps than sharks or crickets.

We originated the same way, we share similar geography, we are both democracies, and most importantly our lifestyles in general are 98% the same.

In the big picture, we are insanely fortunate to be so alike with our neighbours, as for centuries we have gotten along splendidly.

What are your stereotypical differences that you can think of?  Crime?  Guns?  Health care?  I think someone living in suburban Connecticut would look at someone in the slums of Markham and disagree with you.  Not everywhere in the US is Compton, you know.

How would you like to be Israel and live in constant fear of being overran from all sides?  How would you like to be France and having a different enemy every century?  Would you rather be India sandwiched between China and Pakistan?

Don't get me wrong, when I was a teenager I was the first in line to bash America every chance I got, but then I grew up and realized the difference between irrational hormones and what is in our national interest.  Plus, when you're an air sentry driving down Route Foster and look up to see an American-made Apache providing top cover for you, a bit of a soft spot forms in your heart.

[/thread jack]

Back to talking about the bad guys not the good guys!
 
My take on Americans is simple.

This POV is from both a Canadian and Australian take.

Not long ago, we were all Collonies of the Mother Country, England.

We all come from a majority of NW European background, with a post war immigrant intake from similar places also.

In reality, shy perhaps of certain politcal views, we are not much different at all. We like the same food, sports, music, hobbies, and even share churches and other organisations, and we are allied in many causes/wars for a very long time.

Perhaps we are seeing a side of ourselves when we see them. I can't fault an American no more than I can fault myself. Compared to the 30 some million of Canadians and 20 million Australians, there is about 300 millions Americans, all roughly in a country a bit bigger than Australia and a bit smaller than Canada. Each of our nations has their issues, but I view American issues roughly about 100 times as intense as our own.


OWDU
 
Petamocto said:
In the big picture, we are insanely fortunate to be so alike with our neighbours, as for centuries we have gotten along splendidly.

Its actually 'decades' - we werent really BFF until about WW2...
 
Overwatch Downunder said:
We all come from a majority of NW European background, with a post war immigrant intake from similar places also.

Not all of us. ;)
 
I heard an awesome analogy once.

England is Dad, and for a long time Dad was a pretty powerful guy, going around the world kicking @$$ at his prime.  Then he had some kids, consisting of America, Canada, Australia, etc (arguably India and others but not really), and he continued to kick @$$ even more when those kids could help him work on the farm.

Then one day America turned 18 and started not agreeing with his aging Dad about everything, and finally one day they had a fight and America knocked Dad out cold, and they were on the outs for a few years.

However, once they had lived apart for a while they realized that they were still family and realized it would be stupid to stay apart.  From that point on, the bond was incredibly strong and whenever someone messed with one it meant they were messing with both.

Where do Canada and Australia come into play?  Well, Australia is the youngest son who loves to fight but he'll never really be as strong as his older brother, and Canada is the middle child who happens to be a hippie left-wing daughter.  That's not to say that she can't lay down one hell of a b!tch slap on someone when required, just that she has different thought processes and priorities than her brothers and Dad.

And at the end of the day, we're all still family.
 
Great post Petamocto

I have copied it down to use: 
I heard an awesome analogy once
as appropriate.

Love:
Canada is the middle child who happens to be a hippie left-wing daughter.

Canada was strong, for example the fourth largest Navy in WWII. Post war, this country lost it's way because of the Liberals and the eastern Canada Progressive Conservative back stabbers.

ERC will put me right if spoke out of turn here.
 
My friend, you don't have to convince me about Canada's real military past (re: not peacekeeping).

I wouldn't have decided to make the Infantry my career and life's passion if I thought otherwise. 

Being female does not automatically mean weak, just that one has different priorities.

That being said, we are slaves to our civilian masters who must be voted into power and if (hypothetically) 80% of Canadians decide to vote NDP, then as much as we may feel differently about what the military should be capable of it won't matter because we don't get to steer our own path.

Should that ever happen it will be interesting times.  To be a professional soldier for your country means you do what you're told, and I am curious to know if there would be a mass exodus of people getting out.
 
Petamocto said:
I 100% agree with BDave.

I think Canadians more than any other define ourselves as not someone else, which is very sad because we are more alike the US than any other two countries, but too many people focus on nothing but our 2% difference.

In fact it's so popular that if PM ever says "The US and Canada are extremely close" he would lose percentage points, meanwhile JC did everything he can to not do what the US did and it made him wildly popular.

When did this happen? It's obviously the french separatists who strengthened this perception.
Could it be with the world's anti-american point of view that we latched on for fear of being dislikes?
I'm a young buck, so i don't really know the underlying history (you know...since i wasn't there).
 
Sheesh...where to start...

Granatstein, while I don't agree with everything he says, nailed it quite solidly in "Whose war is it".

It is very unpopular in Canada to appear like you like the US, to the point where if a US President says 1+1=2, he almost grimaces because it puts him in a position where he must agree (thus lose face).

It's all about what is popular vs what is actually important for our country though (national interest).  For example, JC went out of his way to snub the US whenever he could, and Canadians bought it up, even thought they are our biggest trading partner and - despite some people's assertions - we really need them now that we're so interwoven, but they don't need us.

Stephen Harper understands this relationship and tries to stay on good terms, and the opposition loves tearing him apart over it, calling him Mini Bush, etc because they know the association will turn people against him.  No party is immune though, Ignatief got the same treatment for living in the US for so long.

It's very sad, actually.  They're our best friends but some people would rather they be our enemies.
 
Whether we like it or not, anti-Americanism has very deep roots in this country and we're being intellectually dishonest if we try to pretend it was something cooked up by the post-WWII Liberals. It wasn't.

Many things in our history remind Canadians that we have definitely NOT always been "best friends" with the US. From the incursions during the American Revolution, the War of 1812 and the Fenian crisis, at least three generations of white, Anglo-Saxon Canadians grew up fearing the US and fretting about Free Trade and Manifest Destiny or creeping republicanism, before the 19th century was over. Let's not forget what one of the great underlying motivations was for Confederation; for building the CPR; and even sending the NWMP out West: fear of the US encroaching on us. I'll bet that if you look back objectively over our political history, you'll see that every political party, at one time or another, has exploited this innate anti-US sentiment.

While I think that today we worry more about CANUSA economic issues and beating the US
at hockey, we are still not completely easy in our relationship with them. (Although any Canadian in their right mind would not pick any other major world power as a next door neighbour).

As we mature as nation (don't forget, we really only became a "country", as opposed to an autonomous colony, in 1931...), we need to remember that countries don't really have "friends": they have interests. Certainly, no US President who wants to have a political lifespan of any length can ever forget that. The US people (rightly) expect that he will place US interests (often domestic ones-remember Hoover's quote about foreign policy being domestic politics with "...its hat on"), above the desires and needs of foreign countries. Nothing else would be realistic. If we take a look at US political history, we can see an endless back-and forth between isolationism and interventionism, between the desire to engage and the desire to stand clear. All motivated by the national interests of the time. For example, the views of the respective US and Canadian publics in 1914 and 1939, and later again in GWII, were quite different on the idea of whose war to be involved in.

So where does all that leave us?

First, I think we need to stop this silly boy scout idea about "best friends", not least because we've abused it horribly in the area of national security. We want a very good relationship with the US (who wouldn't?) but it needs to be clearly based on recognizing just who has what interests, and just how far either partner is really going to go to accommodate the other's interest that doesn't happen to match, especially where domestic policies are concerned. This soppy " best friends" thinking leads us to make lazy assumptions about the US, then have national hissy fits when the US decides to do something we don't like.

Next, we need to be 100% sure that we never willingly pose a security threat to the US, by act or omission. Our security house has to be in complete and credible order. At the same time, we need to stop moaning endlessly about economic (and thus political) dependence on the US, and dig in very hard to get into emerging markets like China, India, Brazil and (a bit further down the road...) Africa.

And, who knows....if all that happens, a "real" friendship, based on mutual respect and trust, could emerge.

Cheers
 
It's interesting to see the comments on this thread, many from those who are entrusted to protect the freedoms that we have in Canadian society.  I find it particularly interesting when people assign political stripes to comments made in the media (in this case, that the author of the comments made in the article is somehow left-wing, which, incidentally, is rarely the side of the political spectrum from which this type of comment is made). 

That said, I absolutely find his opinion objectionable, as I would hope most serving and former members of the CF would agree.  But we can't have it both ways -- we either live in a free and open society that allows everyone to share their opinion whatever it is; or we live in a society where an opinion that is not shared by the masses is muzzled (this is fascism, a scheme of government that we, as free Canadians, have rejected outright).

Furthermore, to express my opinion on some of those shared in this thread (and acknowledging that this is certainly an emotional issue for me and everyone else who has felt the need to weigh in):  Those whose solution for this person is to threaten, assault, kill, imprison or otherwise, should clearly examine their words in the context of a free and open society, and should they feel so strongly as to actually believe what they are saying, consider moving to a country where the freedoms we take for granted do not exist, and where Gestapo-like organizations do.

We (the military) exist to protect Society's values, and if we selectively choose who can speak freely or what their opinion can be, we are failing those who entrust us to stand up for democratic and free principles.  I don't like what this student said any more than any of those who shared their opinions here, but I am willing to hear it as the implications of censoring it are far more undesirable than the opinion itself.
 
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