Just got back from CFRC - need some advice

[jzaidi1]

Hey folks,

Just got back from CFRC and received some "conflicting" info.  Can you please clear up for me?  I met with a young 2Lt and he sat me down in his office.  When discussing my interest he told me several things:

1. He does not know how many Pilot slots are open for CEOTP - told me to check back in couple of weeks
2. That I was not eligible for CEOTP (only having one year uni under my belt in 93'-94' with very bad marks) and that I HAD to have a full degree
3. He recommended I do ROTP (at age 33 and with wife/mortgage it's almost a no go) to start and complete degree
4. Had little info on how I should approach the Laser Eye Surgery (mind you it's new to the forces)
5. Told me slots are HEAVILY weighted towards RMC grads (which is true of course)

I asked him if it were possible to do 1 year of univeristy and then apply - he wasn't able to tell me straight yes or no.  I thought that this option was available and that is how other folks on this board got in but according to him he wasn't sure.

So I need someone to help clear things up for me.  I'm willing to go back to Civvie university to start fresh and get laser eye surgery.  Would anyone have any advice on how to continue or if the info is accurate or inaccurate?

Also, can anyone point me in the right direction to an accredited online university that could perhaps give credits for life experience?  I'd like to explore this route too.

Thanks,
J

p.s FYI - the young 2Lt with whom I met with got in under CEOTP for Pilot 4 years ago but is now sitting in a recruiting office...strange indeed.

 

[George Wallace]

At the sounds of it, the 2Lt you talked to hasn't done the required reading for the job.  I would almost bet the next Loto 649 prize that this 2Lt is only there for the summer as a "Job Placement" or as the military calls it OJT.  It doesn't look like he has done any serious On Job Training as of yet, if he couldn't give you the answers you were looking for.  I am surprised that you haven't mentioned that he may have mentioned DEO.  Perhaps he didn't.  Yet another indicator that he didn't know what he was talking about.

If I remember correctly, in all my reading of the various posts on this site, there is a young 2Lt, member of this site, Air Force, CEOTP currently doing OJT for the summer at a CFRC in Hamilton.  Perhaps you met him.   ;D


Some examples of what I speak:

I'm posted to CFRC Toronto for my OJT.  I've asked around the unit and the ASU, but come up empty.  Anyone know what the chances are that I could arrange to do the course at Borden through, say, 400 sqn?

Just from my speakings with a hornet driver who is currently on the FWIC... the average hop for a hornet driver is roughly 0.8 to 1.0.. but as he told me they are 'quality hours'! Though there is also a downside to that, as the pilot who was doing OJT at CFRC London told me, you are pretty much living an MJ style life year round, the flying, planning and academics are absolutely hair on fire intense (She also told me that 5 of 11 slots on MJ were jets... i wanted to 'fast forward my life as well), and as the hornet driver told me you have to have an undying passion for flying fighters or you will be miserable... I'm in the same boat as you J_Muir, currently in the recruitment process dying to fly Jets, hit me up with a PM...

 

[jzaidi1]

Clarification...we did discuss DEO but that is not an option for me for 3-4 years.  This young guy recommended ROTP and couldn't give a straight answer on CEOTP.  Credit to him though for sticking it out.  I'm sure he'd rather be flying planes than seeing folks off the street.

How can someone go to univeristy for one year and then get accepted as a pilot?  I've seen it happen on this board - I know that once in you'd have to commit to completing the degree (I'm willing to do that) but that never came up even when I asked.

J

 

[PuckChaser]

If you're gonna get the laser surgery done, I'd wait at least a year before you apply AFTER the surgery is finished. If you rush it, you could fail the vision test and end up SOL. I'm still healing my eyes, some days the vision is more crisp than others, and this will continue for up to 6 weeks before it stabilizes at 20/20 or better.

 

[BC Old Guy]

The target for non-ROTP pilots is extremely small.  If you don't have experience or some other advantage, then it is unlikely that you will be called in for testing/medical/interview. 

If you are going for eye-surgery just for pilot - be careful.  Just having the vision requirement is not enough.

 

[jzaidi1]

Thanks guys,

I am painfully aware that getting a CEOTP Pilot slot is very slim.  I've been in touch with the re-enrollment officer for the Airforce in Ottawa.  He seems to support my decision to try and move forward with Pilot but of course part of his job is to encourage applications regardless.  I'll do the laser surgery (it can only be beneficial overall) once I get direction from CFRC.

I was thinking another route to get to Pilot eventually.  Would enrolling as an NCM full time (working on degree part-time/off hours) be another route?  I wouldn't think it ethical to go that route if all I want to do is remuster to Pilot.  I was an NCM in the reserves and although I enjoyed my time there it was different, I was young, unattached and didn't need a lot of money back then.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Also, are there any good online universities in Canada and could someone point me in the right direction?

J

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

1. He does not know how many Pilot slots are open for CEOTP - told me to check back in couple of weeks

From what I understand, there are very few slots available. 5 slots for serving NCM's was being tossed around on the site. I might be able to find out from my File Manager.

2. That I was not eligible for CEOTP (only having one year uni under my belt in 93'-94' with very bad marks) and that I HAD to have a full degree

False. Good grief - CEOTP is designed for applicants who do not have a University degree. I had a college diploma and some University credits when I originally applied. If your marks are a dog's breakfast, you might want to take some part time courses and work on improving your average.

3. He recommended I do ROTP (at age 33 and with wife/mortgage it's almost a no go) to start and complete degree

I heard that line right before, "Hey - if it doesn't work out, you can always join me in the field." I would only consider that option if I had one year remaining on my degree.

4. Had little info on how I should approach the Laser Eye Surgery (mind you it's new to the forces)

Personally, I would let people work out the bugs on that one before I ran out and got the surgery. At least get some documentation on approved surgery before proceeding. But that is just my opinion.

I asked him if it were possible to do 1 year of univeristy and then apply - he wasn't able to tell me straight yes or no.  I thought that this option was available and that is how other folks on this board got in but according to him he wasn't sure.

Really? You can apply to civie ROTP. You should be able to apply for CEOTP. Keep in mind that your transcripts and education play an important role in the process. (or so I was told during my interview)

Also, can anyone point me in the right direction to an accredited on-line university that could perhaps give credits for life experience?  I'd like to explore this route too.

There are some on-line Universities such as <a href="http://www.athabascau.ca/"> Athabasca </a>. There are also a lot of Universities that are providing on-line courses as part of their curriculum. I have been taking courses at Carleton U through streaming media (Real Player). I just show up to write the exams.

I applied to CEOTP Pilot over a year ago and have had several ASC dates cancelled. It is extremely competitive right now. That is not to say that you shouldn't apply, it is just a head's up. Then again, you may be a lot more competitive than I am and breeze through the process. That is if there are any spots available.

Good luck. Keep working toward your goal. Personally, I would gear my studies toward an area that will not only allow you to obtain the required education for Pilot, but also improve your current career.

Good luck. 

EDIT: Sorry J. Just wanted to add that I am not a Recruiter nor am I a Pilot. I do have quite a bit of experience with Pilot applications though.  ;D

 

[hauger]

My $0.02.

The ROTP plan might give you the best chance....and with 1 year under your belt, you should (I'm thinking with nearly 100% chance) stay at your current univ.  The reason for the ROTP push is the training system is saturated, ROTP allows for a slower integration of the applicant into the system (vs. a DEO/CEOTP who're ready to be trained right now, all year long).

WRT CEOTP....I'm pretty sure a year at univ. qualifies you for CEOTP (might want to check that).  If CFRC is accepting CEOTP applications (they might restrict it if the plan has met its quota), my advice is to say "what the hell".  Put the application in.  Its not like if you don't make it past selection you can't apply again or apply then to ROTP.  It doesn't cost you anything, and if you have the chance, I say roll the dice and take your chances.  You never know, you're application might actually be more competitive than you think.

WRT eyesight....I have no idea what the deal is with laser or the V2 requirement.  If you meet the V2 requirement, I wouldn't bother with the laser (yet).  Put the glasses on and fill out an application.

Just my $0.02.  Good luck.

 

[hauger]

Oh....forgot to mention.....a 4yr CEOTP 2Lt sitting at CFRC is not unusual.  Usually they're between courses (yep, it can take that long to get wings), and working at the local CFRC so they can be home with their spouse.

Recruiting centre's have a habit of taking people asking about being a pilot and stuffing them with the resident OJT'er.  The 2Lt usually has no recruiting training other than what he's picked up by osmosis.  They do this so the applicant can get a feeling for what the process is really like (since the 2lt went through the process).  It's well intentioned, and meant to be helpful, but it can miss the mark if the 2lt doesn't know the proper recruiting information you're looking for and doesn't have enough character to say "I don't know" then finding someone who does.

Just so you know.

 

[jzaidi1]

Hey guys,

Just heard from the re-enrollment officer in Ottawa.  He tells me that there were 5 CEOTP slots for Pilot this year and to his knowledge have already been filled.  He suspects the next few years to be very lean when it comes to open Pilot slots.  That sort of makes sense, when the economy is good then Pilots (along with everyone else) tend to gravitate towards higher paying, lower barrier of entry type positions.  Well it isn't looking so pretty for Pilots in the civvie world this year so naturally enrollment for Pilot is way up this year over the previous 3 years.  Plus it doesn't help that the pool of candidates just grew 20% with the announcement of laser eye surgery acceptability.

Damn I am up against a tidal wave here.  I'll just keep plugging away and get a degree in hopes it will help my cause.

J

 

[ark]

I was thinking another route to get to Pilot eventually.  Would enrolling as an NCM full time (working on degree part-time/off hours) be another route?  I wouldn't think it ethical to go that route if all I want to do is remuster to Pilot.  I was an NCM in the reserves and although I enjoyed my time there it was different, I was young, unattached and didn't need a lot of money back then.

Remember that a Reg force job is not your usual 8 to 4. Working full time in the military and doing a degree is challenging as you can be called to be away for extended periods of time (EXs, deployments). Do a search on this site and you will find people sharing their experiences in this matter, especially on the length it takes to get your degree done. You also have to remember that if your trade becomes "red" (critically needing people), your chances for an OT may be very slim if not null.
Keep in mind also that if DEO pilot stays as competitive as it is at the moment, simply having a degree will most likely be not enough.

Good luck with your process.

 

[jzaidi1]

Thanks folks,

It's been a mental rollercoaster these past few days.  One small part of me says stick with what I am doing in the Civvie world but a much larger chunck is screaming Pilot in the CF.  It's been that way for a very long time.

I'm attempting to make contact with someone at RMC for Undergraduate Distance Education Courses.  I figure if I am going to continue my education then I might as well do so with a Military Institute.

It looks like I won't be able to apply this year for CEOTP - I've heard the slots have been filled already.  Having siad that I am going to put an online application in so at least there is a recorded history of application (and provides a good start point for the CF to track improvements).

Here is what I believe will help my application:
- Air Cadet for 5+ years '87-'92 (was 2ic of my squadron, Won trophy for top performance one year)
- Communication Reserves from '92-'96 (Corporal, 1 year callout in 94-95 as instructor at CFSCE, Level III clearance)
- Graduated High School with University prep courses (B avg on most courses except for Chem - C avg)
- Always in team sports/extracuricular from childhood till Grade 12
- 12 years of Civvie working experience in IT (Now Mgr of IT recruitment, lead 7 people, hiring more, won few awards)

Here is what is hurting me:
- Lack degree - One year of Uni (Comp Sci) from '93 - '94 (did VERY poorly)
- Eye sight (which can be changed)

Once I start down the degree path I think I "might" have a shot at CEOTP or wait till I do get a degree to go DEO.  I know a lot has to do with CFAT, ACS and Interview as well.  Just wish me luck...I'm 33 now and I don't want to be too old.  I would love to fly the Hornet, damnit!

J

 

[ark]

Thanks folks,

It's been a mental rollercoaster these past few days.  One small part of me says stick with what I am doing in the Civvie world but a much larger chunck is screaming Pilot in the CF.  It's been that way for a very long time.

I'm attempting to make contact with someone at RMC for Undergraduate Distance Education Courses.  I figure if I am going to continue my education then I might as well do so with a Military Institute.

It looks like I won't be able to apply this year for CEOTP - I've heard the slots have been filled already.  Having siad that I am going to put an online application in so at least there is a recorded history of application (and provides a good start point for the CF to track improvements).

Here is what I believe will help my application:
- Air Cadet for 5+ years '87-'92 (was 2ic of my squadron, Won trophy for top performance one year)
- Communication Reserves from '92-'96 (Corporal, 1 year callout in 94-95 as instructor at CFSCE, Level III clearance)
- Graduated High School with University prep courses (B avg on most courses except for Chem - C avg)
- Always in team sports/extracuricular from childhood till Grade 12
- 12 years of Civvie working experience in IT (Now Mgr of IT recruitment, lead 7 people, hiring more, won few awards)

Here is what is hurting me:
- Lack degree - One year of Uni (Comp Sci) from '93 - '94 (did VERY poorly)
- Eye sight (which can be changed)

Once I start down the degree path I think I "might" have a shot at CEOTP or wait till I do get a degree to go DEO.  I know a lot has to do with CFAT, ACS and Interview as well.  Just wish me luck...I'm 33 now and I don't want to be too old.  I would love to fly the Hornet, damnit!

J

Should CEOTP/ROTP not turn as you hope there might be another option.

Since you have a lot of working experience, you may be eligible to skip undergrad and go for a Masters degree depending on the nature of your current/past jobs. I knew someone who had 20 years of experience in the IT world, applied for an undergrad degree and was actually offered to go straight into grad school even if he never asked for it.

As a manager, you may be eligible to do for example an intensive MBA in a year or so which will be shorter than a standard undergrad degree. Obviously, you first have to ask yourself if that is something you want to do and have the necessary skills. Then you have to verify (possibly double and triple check) with your CFRC if you can apply as a DEO with a graduate degree but without an undergrad one. If it is a go, you would also have to find a school willing to recognize your experience. A meeting with an academic advisor could be a good start. The poor grades you got will not help you but most science programs usually have low averages anyway.

Should you not be accepted for pilot, you would always have a nice degree to help you in the civvy world.

 

[Zoomie]

Keep in mind that the recruiters are not really interested what you did over 10-15 years ago.  Participating in school sports is a good plus if you are 18 and applying.  If you are 33, they are interested in what you have been doing in the past 5 years to remain active.

Air cadets and PRes activity in the 80's and 90's doesn't really count for much.  Continued participation in the Air Cadet league as a civilian instructor would have been a  plus.  If you mention your PRes time, they will attempt a VFS (Verification of Former Service) - which will take time - many many months.  This might only delay your application and have no real benefit in the end.

What you need to do is contemplate this....

It will be upwards of 2+ years after enrollment that you will see a CF aircraft.  Possibly another 1.5 -> 2 years will pass before stream selection.  At which point your dream of flying the plastic jet might be turned into flying a tactical helicopter or something with a multitude of engines sprouting from its wings.  Are you still going to be happy with your call?

 

[Arctic]

As someone applying to join the military as an AVN tech, this thread has been very helpful, along with the others, as I am considering changing that to apply to become a pilot. One of my greatest fascinations has been with aircraft, especially jet aircraft, and one of my aspirations is to be an F-18 pilot. I have a similar background to Fireball (cadets, decent hs grades, bad eyesight, flunked uni), so it is interesting to see what happened exactly. I am 20 years old right now, and I do wish to become an officer someday (also thinking aerospace engineer for officer route), and I believe that I have the capabilities to succeed with all factors involved. I am questioning which would be a better route, as I know I would absolutely love either profession, AVN tech or pilot. Right now everything in me wants to progress in the best possible manner, and I feel that entering now for AVN tech is my best choice, to provide the best character development, trade qualifications, career, etc. I could do ROTP, possibly RMC, actually preferably RMC, if enrolling under that path for a pilot is possible. And that would also accomplish the things I wish to achieve. However looking at how long to get involved, with the chances to just actually become involved, weighs some doubt on that end. To be honest, I want a good secure path (hardship I'm not worried about) for myself to get on, which is why I'm leaning towards AVN tech right now. Plus I hear pilots sometimes give rides to the repair folk (ok I'm guilty that's an appeal).

Mostly just talking out the ideas in my head.

Regarding laser eye surgery, I would definitely recommend it. My eyesight was -10.5 in each eye before getting it done, which prevented me from joining at all (which is the reason why I got laser eye surgery). I got pre-examined for surgery, had high presc, wide pupils, was very expected that there would be regression due to all this. After 15 days usually people with these conditions they say regress noticeably, so I wasn't expecting too much, just was happy to get above the qualification level. PRK zyoptic was the only option for me, had a week of hell of mostly lying in bed, crashed up with drugs and drops for the first few days, then just drops afterwards (up to this day). My vision was extremely blurry at the beginning, it kept progressing better and better, and by my last exam, I can just about see 20/20 now. It's amazing to be able to see this well, and not have to wear glasses or contacts. It's been 30 days or so since I've had it done, and I'll be back to the CFRC getting my medical in a couple months from now. Well worth the pain, and the money spent. Really is life changing.

 

[PuckChaser]

Arctic: I will totally agree with you on Laser Eye being completely worth it. I had my surgery 3 weeks ago, and its been nothing but fantastic. Sure, its a little sore for a few days, but nothing a few tylenol wouldn't fix. I would say its akin to having a headache for 3 days. My vision has gotten nothing but better since I had it done, and the doctors are optimistic for 20/20 in a week or so, and I can probably get close to 20/15 in 3-5 weeks. The PRK proceedure I had was probably the wierdest thing I've ever gone through, but I would do it again in a heartbeat to fix my vision. Now all I need is the inclination to go to University, and I'll try the UTPNCM route for flight training.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

What you need to do is contemplate this....

It will be upwards of 2+ years after enrollment that you will see a CF aircraft.  Possibly another 1.5 -> 2 years will pass before stream selection.  At which point your dream of flying the plastic jet might be turned into flying a tactical helicopter or something with a multitude of engines sprouting from its wings.  Are you still going to be happy with your call?

That is excellent advice.

To go one step further: what if it you don't get your wings? Would you be happy with the fact that you tried and gave it your best shot? Would you be happy releasing or in another trade in the CF? I might be assuming the worst case scenario, but you have to consider it while making your decision. (I know the thought crossed my mind while I was in the process). Again - good luck.

 

[jzaidi1]

Hi All,

To answer the last couple of posts.  Seems like even if I were able to get in as a Pilot that CF-18 would be out of reach for me due to my age.  I've come to the realization that my dream of being a fighter pilot is a narrowing road.  Having said that I am more than open to tactical flying on Hercs or C-17s, but I have to say that one of my least enjoyable trips in a CF aircraft was in an Aurora - old, painfully slow, not well-tempered anymore.  It's the the "Sea King" of fixed-wing aircraft.  I realize my choices are limited to open slots and my own performance during flight school so I have to live with the CFs decision on where I go.

As for Helo - not terribly interested in choppers unless they go full tactical (ie Apache or SuperCobra).  I've spent months in Gagetown near the Twin Hueys and those pilots LOVE flying choppers - me, not so much yet.  I'm open to anything at this point though I am sure things will change as I go through this process.  I started out "only" wanting to fly the Hornet but have come to appreciate multi-engine and still learning to appreciate Helos.  I will be happy as long as I get in - making it through the demanding courses is another story.

As for my current status on application.  I've been told by CFRC Mississauga that CEOTP was closed even before opening up.  I've contacted RMC and will be applying for Bachelor of Military Arts & Science (3 year) through long distance education.  I'm also contemplating a return to the Reserves to Bolster my position.  I was in Sigs before but many of the skills/technology are outdated.  I just have to find a way to get the summer off of work for training (talking about next summer if I don't make it into Pilot MOC).

If I do make it into Pilot MOC, but for whatever reason have to "cease training" and be placed in an entirely different MOC then I wouldn't be happy, however I know that I would have given it my best shot and that would be good enough for me.  Frankly I'm tired of serving the needs of the marketplace (ie. Making money for already rich civvie owners) and fulfilling a career with a purpose (defend National Interests).

The moral of the story, I won't be giving up so easily.  I'll keep on trying again and again till I make Pilot MOC.  if I wash out as a Pilot I will still be proud to wear a CF uniform again.  If anything, all these changes in my life can only mean positive things for my Civvie career anyway.

J

 

[Zoomie]

...one of my least enjoyable trips in a CF aircraft was in an Aurora - old, painfully slow, not well-tempered anymore.  It's the the "Sea King" of fixed-wing aircraft... 

I guess you are lucky that Cdnaviator is in Trenton right now and away from keyboard.  The CP-140 is far from slow or old.  She is the second fastest turbo-prop aircraft in the world.  Most of the modern world use the same airframe for their MP and Littoral Ops missions.

In the multi-engine world of the CF:

Old = CC-115 Buffalo

Slow = Twin Otter

Fat = CC-177 Globemaster

Boring = Polaris

 

[jzaidi1]

I stand corrected.  Somewhere in my mixed-up brain I did indeed get the Aurora mixed up with the Buffalo - I know, I know...my bad.  Aurora's are indeed faster that the other props we have in the CF inventory.  Although ocean-side postings are great (born in Halifax, raised in NB) I'd like to be close to the combat training action vs sub-hunting and Search & Rescue.  Spent some time at CFB Halifax/Shearwater/Greenwood in my day.

Sorry for the mix-up folks.

J