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July 2018: 8 Shot in Toronto

PuckChaser

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Familiarity can sometimes breed complacence. People carrying concealed in public places where 99.9999% of people there are innocent bystanders need a high degree of training to be safe for both themselves and others.
 

brihard

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EpicBeardedMan said:
According to this article he suffered from mental health issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-id-danforth-shooter-1.4757566

Seen. His family is stating he has been dealing with depression and psychosis, which I find very plausible. The name alone means there's going to be a ton of racist conjecture around this one. I will need to be convinced by evidence of any ideological or religious motivate, and hope people can reserve judgment and wait for evidence to emerge. If police have executed a search warrant on his residence, next step will be extracting every bit they can from any of his digital devices. That will probably be very revealing. And of course, figuring out where he got the gun. I will not be surprised if he has criminal history.
 

PuckChaser

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Brihard said:
That will probably be very revealing. And of course, figuring out where he got the gun. I will not be surprised if he has criminal history.

The problem is, I've rarely seen released where the gun was obtained. We've already started seeing the gun control folks using this tragedy to justify more restrictive regulations, but never do I see the actual statistics between crimes committed with legally obtained firearms by licensed firearms owners, and illegally obtained firearms by non-licensed criminals.
 

JesseWZ

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Brihard said:
Their 'familiarity' with weapons does not, to mind, extend to any particular degree of expertise. A small number of CAF members are pretty experienced and proficient with pistols. The rest might occasionally get to play with them but fall well short of anything I would want to see for someone carrying.

Aside from that, as frequently as I've seen CAF members saying really outlandish stuff on police use of force discussions, I have zero faith that CAF training or mindset appropriately equips people to be carrying firearms on civvy street. Honestly, soldiers and vets are some of the worst armchair quarterbacks for what should be done in use of force situations. There's quite a strong hubris from soldiers who believe that carrying a rifle in training or combat operations carries across perfectly or even adequately for being armed for daily carry for self/public defense. Many are very out to lunch. All that said- military training/experience should not be a factor that is at all in play in determining whether someone should or should not be permitted to carry a firearm in public in Canada.

There's not a chance we are going to see private open or concealed carry of firearms expanded generally in Canada, and I'm fine with that. There's no significant political appetite here, and few of us want to see us move along the trajectory to what we see south of the border. Just no thanks.

Amen. When I was overseas, a number of folks opted to carry pistols instead of rifles in the camp (whether this was for convenience, LCF, availability or what have you). Most folks outside of trades whom carried and fired the/a pistol regularly (either the Sig, or our old friend the Browning) performed abhorrently at the range in both drills and abilities. They also seemed to have little use for properly maintaining their personal weapon too.

When you factor in stress, from a variety of sources (people screaming, limited time, no clear overview of events in question, etc) you will see more innocent people shot then saved. I also whole heartily concur with everything Brihard stated above.

While some resilience to stress and ability to make decisions in a crowded environment are to a degree burned into a soldiers training, appropriate use of force in a civilian setting with only a firearm will only bring harm - not only to the innocent people in the way - but also the soldier, sailor or air-person who was ill equipped for the task of carrying concealed in a public place. Should those who were tasked to carry concealed have the rest of the use of force suite of options available to them? (Baton, pepper spray, taser (if equipped)) Those less lethal use of force options are there as tools for a number of reasons - but primarily because your first or only option/tool shouldn't be the lethal one (in most settings or situations). Will we also train those carrying concealed on appropriate use and escalation of force (ie the national Use of Force model)? That training takes months (formal and informal), and good judgement can take years to develop (if it develops at all). If I was responding to a call for service, the last thing I want is to run into some half cocked cook, or infanteer, or mechanic, or whomever who because of their status as a CF member was magically granted a carry and conceal permit for protecting the rest of the public and the "sheepdog" mindset that I fear will come with it.

I wear civilian attire in my current unit and I carry a pistol most of the time. I'm often out in public with my weapon semi-concealed.  I've probably put somewhere between 15 and 20 thousand rounds through that pistol (lots of range days). I'm fairly comfortable handling it, shooting it and hitting the things I want to hit with it - at the range.  But you can bet I've got at least one intermediate weapon with me too. Not only because *policy* but also because I don't want my only "tool" to be the gun - however familiar I am with it. I am also familiar with the consequences of shooting when no shooting was required.
 

Jarnhamar

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It wouldn't be the first time someone with serious mental health problems slipped through the system between a medical system that doesn't talk to police/chief firearms office and family/friends who don't want to get involved/be the "bad guy".

*If* his family knew he had a lot of mental problems and he possessed firearms I think they may share some responsibility with what happened. Conjecture and supposition at this point.


As far as ccw permits go I'd be for them and think they could prevent shootings or at least mitigate victims. At the same time I very much agree with a lot of what Brihard says why they would be bad news. Add to that increase in stolen pistols, pistols lost in bathrooms, accidental discharges, jumpy police, police who will need across the country training to deal with people carrying pistols, paranoid non-carrying citizens.

As much as I'd support it (in light of my misgivings) it'll never happen here.



 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=JesseWZ]
Amen. When I was overseas, a number of folks opted to carry pistols instead of rifles in the camp (whether this was for convenience, LCF, availability or what have you). Most folks outside of trades whom carried and fired the/a pistol regularly (either the Sig, or our old friend the Browning) performed abhorrently at the range in both drills and abilities.
[/quote]

Many CCW permit holders in the US manage to effectively use their pistols to dissuade criminals or engage active shooters. I'm going to guess many that do don't have 15'000 rounds under their belt but they defend themselves well enough.
 

Colin Parkinson

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My IPSC instructor shoots about 40,000rds a year, worn out about 8 guns and figures he has shot a couple of million rds altogether. For awhile there I was going through 1,000rds a month at the range myself. I can shoot pistol despite my army training.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Brihard said:
I don't have recent hard data, but anecdotally most of Ontario's crime guns are being smuggled in from the US. Not too hard to move stuff across the border given how perfunctory border checks are, and a clean gun from the states can get quadruple the price on the street...

perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:
 

Fishbone Jones

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EpicBeardedMan said:
According to this article he suffered from mental health issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-id-danforth-shooter-1.4757566

Thats what the government calls terrorism now. That way they can say 'No terrorist activity in Canada' and the PM won't have to break another promise.
 

PPCLI Guy

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recceguy said:
Thats what the government calls terrorism now. That way they can say 'No terrorist activity in Canada' and the PM won't have to break another promise.

So, a whole 22 hours after the incident before someone laid this at the feet of the Prime Minister.  Impressive restraint that shows enormous respect for the victims.  Well done.

:facepalm:
 

tomahawk6

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He could have rented a van or truck which is cheaper than buying a gun off the street.
 

medicineman

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tomahawk6 said:
He could have rented a van or truck which is cheaper than buying a gun off the street.

Which some knob already did not all that long ago in Toronto...guess he didn't want to look like a copycat.

MM
 

brihard

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recceguy said:
perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:

‘Perfunctory’ was an inappropriate word to choose, you’re right. I did not intend to disparage but on reflection i did not convey what I wanted to convey, and I chose a word that can really only have that negative meaning that I didn’t intend. For that, I apologize to any CBSA members we may have here. I intended to make reference to the massive volume of traffic and the minimal time and resources available to perform checks. ‘Cursory’ would have fit better, so long as it’s understood that it’s cursory by necessity.

As for the rest of your post, the border issues are irrelevant to this and it appears your understanding of the obligations faced by police remains willfully limited, so I see no percentage in going down that rabbit hole.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Brihard said:
‘Perfunctory’ was an inappropriate word to choose, you’re right. I did not intend to disparage but on reflection i did not convey what I wanted to convey, and I chose a word that can really only have that negative meaning that I didn’t intend. For that, I apologize to any CBSA members we may have here. I intended to make reference to the massive volume of traffic and the minimal time and resources available to perform checks. ‘Cursory’ would have fit better, so long as it’s understood that it’s cursory by necessity.

As for the rest of your post, the border issues are irrelevant to this and it appears your understanding of the obligations faced by police remains willfully limited, so I see no percentage in going down that rabbit hole.

Thanks Bri. Sorry I'm late here. All my portable screens are acting wonky. If I keep losing things, I might have to dust off the desktop.

Anyway, I appreciate the response. Ok, let me see if I can do this.

I saw your comment, in the light that started us, and fired a cheap shot back to you.

In light of your para 1 explanation, perhaps we're  both at fault.

Had I known your original intent, the shot would not have been taken.

If you want, I can try dig and erase all vestiges of the conversation and you can edit your original one to yourself correct word. How's that?

I retire from enforcement tomorrow and mean no disrespect to any in our professional family.

Being in spite. I'll withdraw that part of my comment as it does none of us any favours, but that's your call.

So, maybe your comment "very heavily hard right bias that we have all become accustomed to over the years here." Is not quite as accurate as you think. Either the outside, politically correct groupspeak here, or our inside "we know what you really mean one." 41+ years of serving the Crown, I can speak pretty good beurocrat.
😆 :salute: :mountie:
 

Colin Parkinson

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recceguy said:
perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:

I was underwhelmed by the CBSA types I worked with out here. One of my current co-workers worked for them as well, made for interesting stories. Also a CBSA Regional Director taught my G220 Management course and gave us a detailed lesson on how to fire employees, seems a few of his had interesting taste in porn which they used work computers to view. Like any organization there are good people struggling to make things work right, but i suspect it is the nature of the culture there that was the main issue.

As far as CCW goes, we should also be allowing off-duty cops to carry, that should be a no-brainer. For the civilian, a restricted PAL, IPSC Black Badge and have them take a course designed for the permit covering shooting techniques, holsters and legal issue. They must also qualify on the range twice a year. 
 

Fishbone Jones

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Eaglelord17 said:
Honestly for self defence you can't beat a revolver.

Close in, a revolver is very easy to defeat.

Use an overhand grip and.force the web of your hand in between the hammer.and the frame. You also have control of the cylinder. Can't pull the trigger without turning the cylinder in double action. You now control, the gun, the muzzle but you have tremendous leverage against their grip.
 

Eaglelord17

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recceguy said:
Close in, a revolver is very easy to defeat.

Use an overhand grip and.force the web of your hand in between the hammer.and the frame. You also have control of the cylinder. Can't pull the trigger without turning the cylinder in double action. You now control, the gun, the muzzle but you have tremendous leverage against their grip.

Good luck sticking your hand between the hammer and the frame of a revolver in the middle of a fight. And hypothetically even if you could do it just remember that a semi-automatic pistol would easily been pushed out of battery long before this point. Also don't forget that if you did manage to get your hand in on that revolver and they got it out of your hand all they have to do is pull the trigger again. With the semi-automatic pistol they would likely have to at least rack the slide again to get it functioning again.
 

PuckChaser

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Close in, any firearm can be defeated. The reactionary gap is 21 feet. Unless you're pointed at the subjects head, you fire the instant they take off and score a hit, they're going to close the gap and you're in a hand to hand fight. Trying to control a gun by blocking the hammer and cylinder is kind of dumb. Could try the pushing the slide back on the HiPower trick and see if it works...
 

Jarnhamar

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Some common themes.

Files being reviewed by police include concern Hussain expressed “support” for a website that was seen as “pro-ISIL,” says a law enforcement source.

Sources say police in Toronto and CSIS officials in Ottawa, as well as the RCMP, are looking into his past, which sources say include his residence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hussain apparently had been spoken to by authorities about his online activities. Sources say Toronto Police, the OPP and the RCMP have all had an interest in the now-deceased shooter.

What law enforcement is saying is that the attack was planned, and Hussain was “well known to Toronto Police” for investigations into past crimes “involving weapons and violence.”



https://www.google.ca/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-was-danforth-attack-terror-or-terrorism/amp
 

PuckChaser

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To be honest, I don't know why terrorism and mentally ill have to be mutually exclusive. Being willing to take other human lives, or burn people alive in cages does not sound mentally stable to me.
 
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