Jack Layton of the NDP Accuses JTF 2 Troops of Abandoning the CF.

[Trinity]

I think it's been said, or at least inferred.  Once a member has served his or her contract with the CF and has been honourably discharged, it matters not where they seek their next employ.  Non issue.

+1  Beaten me to the point.

Does this mean Jack Layton is against contract law?

What is the average life cycle of a JTF soldier? (rhetorical question.. do not answer)
My point being... maybe such a high stress situation only allows most people
to do this job for a five, six, seven year contract... and if that's true then there
is a whole new dimension to this debate that Jack isn't aware of.

Oh wait.. sorry, Jack isn't aware of most things. He just grabs headlines and runs
with them... failing to do any research.  :

 

[Kalatzi]

I think some of us are forgetting this is an open forum
One that from time to time come into the public eye in a very bad light
Think whatever you want - in private
As has been said disagree with the policies
The personal stuff ...

For the good of us all
GET A GRIP!

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

.  What is the actual voter turn out in his riding anyway?

Since you asked:
from the elections canada website (It's all scripts, so no direct link)
Toronto-Danforth
Total Eligible Voters 74862
Total Valid Ballots 50657
% 67.627
Clausen CON 4992
Coyne LIB 17256
Hart GREEN 3583
Layton NDP 24412 = 32.6% of eligible voters
Rodden M-L  172

 

[probum non poenitet]

Does anyone know where to find a transcript of the actual exchange in Parliament?

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

It will probably be here tomorrow

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/ChamberHome.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1

 

[Rodahn]

It will probably be here tomorrow

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/ChamberHome.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1

Look under the Hansard section....

 

[geo]

don't like Jack Layton........

no one else does - why should I be any different?

 

[observor 69]

Jack's question was in the context of Col.Barr's comments to the Senate Defence Committee yesterday.

"In the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, private contractors were dangling the promise of $1,000-a-day deals to poach JTF2 soldiers, said Col. David Barr, head of Canadian Special Operations Forces Command."

http://tinyurl.com/yevdnm

And wether or not you like Layton's comments on Afghan the NATO Operation there are regarded by most neutral informed observers  as a situation that presently could go either way.

 

[paracowboy]

And wether or not you like Layton's comments on Afghan the NATO Operation there are regarded by most neutral informed observers  as a situation that presently could go either way.

but not by those who have served tehre, or are serving there presently. As for the "most neutral observers" crap: show me one.

 

[niner domestic]

This whole JTF2 going over to the Americans/contracting out once retired was discussed in 2004. This is not current news, Jack's staffers need to do better research.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20040409/jtf2_040408?s_name=&no_ads=

 

[observor 69]

Paracowboy:  Just about every senior ISAF military  official,l including the commander Lt. Gen. David Richards, has stated that NATO has a very small window to gain the populations trust and support or the mission will be lost to the Taliban. I'm not trying to run the mission down but if you look at all the factors Gen.Richards is referring to, Pakistan as a secure base, farmers dependent on growing poppies etc etc you can see why it is a close thing.

 

[paracowboy]

Paracowboy:  Just about every senior ISAF military  official,l including the commander Lt. Gen. David Richards, has stated that NATO has a very small window to gain the populations trust and support or the mission will be lost to the Taliban. I'm not trying to run the mission down but if you look at all the factors Gen.Richards is referring to, Pakistan as a secure base, farmers dependent on growing poppies etc etc you can see why it is a close thing.

it's not a close thing at all. More than half the nation is firmly pro-peaceful Afghanistan, one quarter is on the fence, twenty per cent want the status quo, and five per cent want to return to the days of Taliban rule/civil war. At least according to the rough tally we've been keeping in my Bn's Int cell, anyway.

 

[Eland]

Jack Layton, in my not so humble opinion, behaves like a complete ars*hole when it comes to the military and its role in Afghanistan. If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say he's an ignoramus.

He's like a lot of limousine leftists who think nothing about wearing Gucci suits while pontificating endlessly about the hopelessly unrealistic dreamworld (peace at any cost, brotherhood of man, and a chicken in every pot -ad nauseam) they want to create. At the same time these people fail to realize that the relative peace, freedom and economic prosperity that exists in the First World today was bought by force of arms and men and women willing to shed their blood and even die.

I'll bet that Layton doesn't realize that the reconstruction and peacekeeping efforts he wants so badly to see Canadian soldiers involved in can't possibly begin, much less succeed unless and until the Taliban are neutralized. Besides, Canadian soldiers are not supposed to be members of a social welfare/humanitarian agency. Their job is to close with and destroy the enemy so that the real social welfare people can step in and do their jobs in relative safety in the first place.

It would be a good idea if he were taken to Afghanistan to see what our soldiers really do - and what they're up against I'll bet that Layton doesn't even know that Canada (outside of its US/UK allies) is shouldering the brunt of the combat burden in Afghanistan. You know that has to be true when a British MP (a *Labour* MP, no less) comes forward and heaps nothing but praise on Canadian soldiers and chides other countries for not giving them the help they really, really need. It's been a long time since Great Britain has praised Canada so effusively, and the point behind that praise should not be overlooked.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Professors and doctors aren't recruited and trained on the public dime.  JTF2 Assaulters are.  We should protect our investment.

According to Stats Canada, profs and docs trained in Canadian universities are generously subsidized in their training on the public dime (+54% in 2006 across Canada), and lots of municipalities (in Ontario, at least) are working very hard  to get and keep doctors.  Based on this principle, if JTF-2 Assaulter training is 100% taxpayer subsidized, we should do what we can to protect our investment here, too.

Still, those talking about labour mobility rights are correct - we can't MAKE someone stay who doesn't want to - if we do it for Assaulters, maybe we could do it for doctors, too  Some say docs should pay back the am't taxes subsidized their education if they leave the country - methinks that would go over like a lead flatus if applied to Spec Ops types.....

 

[APOLLOVet]

A couple of points if I may,

First, WRT assaulters accepting civilian employment - no problem. If they have requested release, and have been granted release, they are free to do whatever they want as long as it falls within the legal restrictions of Canada (assuming that they retain citizenship). If they cannot do so, then they are indentured servants at best, and slaves at worst.

Remember, folks, CFAOs state in black and white that members have the right to request release. This request does not have to be granted. If we have such a severe shortage of assaulters that we cannot afford to lose a single one, then the CDS has to declare them all immediate operational requirements and refuse to grant release until the end of their contract.

Second, at what point do we complete paying back for our training? I remember well a case where a colleague of mine had just completed pilot training (at the public expense), and then was bought out under the provisions of the Force Reduction Program (FRP). So, not only did he not have to pay back his (very) expensive training as a pilot, he was actually paid a bonus to leave. (By the way, he immediately became a long-haul trans-Pacific pilot for BOAC at twice the salary that the CF paid).

I think that everyone outside the military needs to take a deep breath, and remember that we as citizens do not not necessarily surrender every right when we join the army.

 

[ladybugmabj]

Why are we wasting valuable "net space" on this guy??? (Mr. Layton....I use the term "Mr" very loosely!!). You guys who have been there, are there and are going to Afghanistan, you know we support you, always have and always will!! 

Now, on to a better subject...please!!

:warstory: ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

Does anyone know where to find a transcript of the actual exchange in Parliament?

Here you go:

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, there is more very serious evidence today that our mission in Afghanistan is seriously off track, that we are on the wrong track for the country. We learned today that our elite soldiers, part of the joint task force, are abandoning the Canadian Forces and taking on lucrative mercenary contracts in Iraq. At the same time, we learned from our commanders that they are having to call up more and more reservists to backfill for the inadequate preparations that were made to accommodate our obligations in Afghanistan.

    When will the Prime Minister finally realize that this Liberal-Conservative mission in Afghanistan is on the wrong track and is the wrong mission for Canada?

Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC):  
    Mr. Speaker, the mission in Afghanistan is on the right track.

    We also have no problem recruiting people for our special forces, contrary to what the member is alleging. When we took over, the armed forces had been dramatically reduced; the training system was in great difficulty. What we are doing now is we are being innovative. We are using community colleges, we are using training institutions, we are using retired military to help train in the skills of the military, but everybody who is trained by these means must be fully qualified before they are accepted and tested.

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, all this shows that we were completely unprepared as a country to be involved in this mission. In fact that is what our commanders advised the Liberals when they were contemplating this idea in the first place. Our generals told us that they wanted nothing to do with this mission at the time.

    What we see now is a scrambling by the government to try to salvage a mission that was wrong-headed in the first place. At the same time, we have experts telling us that we are losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people as well as our international reputation.

    When is the Prime Minister going to realize that we are on the wrong track and rethink it, get us onto a--

The Speaker: 
    The right hon. the Prime Minister.

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, I can assure the hon. member that the leadership of the military and the men and women in uniform are fully committed to their jobs and to this mission.
    What I wonder is when the NDP will realize it is on the wrong track in opposing a mandate of the United Nations, when it is on the wrong track in being against the democratically elected government of Afghanistan, and when it is on the wrong track in not backing our men and women in uniform.

 

[niner domestic]

Like I said, all this was reported way back in 2004.  Layton's office is slow on the newsclipping readings and issuing briefing notes. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

...In fact that is what our commanders advised the Liberals when they were contemplating this idea in the first place. Our generals told us that they wanted nothing to do with this mission at the time.

What we see now is a scrambling by the government to try to salvage a mission that was wrong-headed in the first place...

Mr Layton seems utterly unaware that there are two missions in this timeframe: Kabul (2003-2005) and Kandahar (2005--), and that the latter mission is of a very different nature from the former.  Or else he knows but willingly perverts the facts for political gain.  Either case is a disgrace and our media (and the government, damn it!) should be calling him on the simple facts.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Remius]

The fact is that we have a retention issue in the CF.  And it isn't limited to JTF-2.  We lose qualified techs that go off for "lucrative jobs", guys who get back with operational experience who become cops, pilots working for Air Canada etc etc.  Plainly put, CF members are a known and valuable commodity.  This isn't new, and really has nothing to do with Afghanistan or any other operation.  Using this as an argument against the war is pointless as the cause for soldiers leaving the CF isn't necessesarily related to what we are doing overseas (mind you in some cases it can be).