'It's time to consolidate NDHQ' & 'DND to take-over Nortel Campus' (Merged threads)

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

I think given the current climate, we're better off separated from the public service.

The current government seems to think they can score political points by cutting the public service jobs and benefits. Ideally I wouldn't want to be throwing our lot in with theirs (look what happened to the pension split).

 

[George Wallace]

I think given the current climate, we're better off separated from the public service.

The current government seems to think they can score political points by cutting the public service jobs and benefits. Ideally I wouldn't want to be throwing our lot in with theirs (look what happened to the pension split).

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

You really are bizarre.  Your logic in recent topics escapes me.  You sure you have any idea of what the heck you are talking about?  It really doesn't seem that way to me.  This is only one of your more illogical statements, and so out in left field to really not even be considered valid in any way, shape or form.  You comments are those of a civilian with no knowledge of the military, or that of a Pte who has not the smarts to absorb what was being taught him/her. 

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

You really are bizarre.  Your logic in recent topics escapes me.  You sure you have any idea of what the heck you are talking about?  It really doesn't seem that way to me.  This is only one of your more illogical statements, and so out in left field to really not even be considered valid in any way, shape or form.  You comments are those of a civilian with no knowledge of the military, or that of a Pte who has not the smarts to absorb what was being taught him/her.

Buds, you are heavy on the ad hominum attacks and light on actual substance. If you disagree with my statements, make your argument. Otherwise, you don't know me, don't know where I've been, or what perspectives I may have on topics that you are in the dark about.

 

[George Wallace]

Buds, you are heavy on the ad hominum attacks and light on actual substance. If you disagree with my statements, make your argument. Otherwise, you don't know me, don't know where I've been, or what perspectives I may have on topics that you are in the dark about.

From your comments, I have the impression you have been no where.  They are just too bizarre.

 

[Occam]

Please, enough with the blatantly obvious. Also, I have never, nor will I ever, consider myself blessed for anything that a federal public service union does.  In fact - since you brought it up - I find it insulting that anything I get as a military member has to be tied to whatever the public service gets rather than it being based entirely on the merits of military service (positively or negatively). I'd rather not have my service, and the compensation I receive for it, tied to what a federal public servant receives. I don't see us a being equal, or even similar, at all. Pretty radical thinking eh?

You keep saying everything is blatantly obvious, but you also keep saying things that show you don't fully understand the compensation system.  Your pay is tied to the benchmarks of the PS.  The "military factor" is then added in - I'll leave you to Google that term.  Many, but not all CF positions are equal to those carried out by the PS.  You have AS and CR employees working alongside RMS Clerks...you have EL and EG employees working alongside numerous technical CF trades...and you have ENGs working alongside CSE and MSE officers.  My experience is Navy, but other parallels can be drawn to the Air Force and Army trades.  Fact of the matter is, that's the system the CF is under now, like it or not.  You reap the benefit of PS successes, and share in the losses (see Severance Pay).

Back on the Nortel issue:  While the initial announcement that DND was to be the new tenant at the Nortel site was only three years ago, there have been no shortage of media stories over the same period calling into question DND's resolve in carrying it out.  You can't blame people for buying in Orleans based upon the age-old military premise - it ain't official until the ink is dry.  Were I in a "posted into Ottawa" situation over the last three years, I'm pretty certain I would have bought based on where DND's sites are, not where they might be based on a bunch of variables.

edit: to include reference to Officer/PS comparisons

 

[Transporter]

You keep saying everything is blatantly obvious, but you also keep saying things that show you don't fully understand the compensation system.  Your pay is tied to the benchmarks of the PS.  The "military factor" is then added in - I'll leave you to Google that term.  Many, but not all CF positions are equal to those carried out by the PS.  You have AS and CR employees working alongside RMS Clerks...you have EL and EG employees working alongside numerous technical CF trades...and you have ENGs working alongside CSE and MSE officers.  My experience is Navy, but other parallels can be drawn to the Air Force and Army trades.  Fact of the matter is, that's the system the CF is under now, like it or not.  You reap the benefit of PS successes, and share in the losses (see Severance Pay).

Back on the Nortel issue:  While the initial announcement that DND was to be the new tenant at the Nortel site was only three years ago, there have been no shortage of media stories over the same period calling into question DND's resolve in carrying it out.  You can't blame people for buying in Orleans based upon the age-old military premise - it ain't official until the ink is dry.  Were I in a "posted into Ottawa" situation over the last three years, I'm pretty certain I would have bought based on where DND's sites are, not where they might be based on a bunch of variables.

edit: to include reference to Officer/PS comparisons

I fully, 100%, unequivocally, without reservation, in the absolute clearest of terms, understand how the military compensation system works and don't need it explained to me. It is you who are failing to understand the point that I've made; that being, I don't disagree that it is the way it is, I just don't agree that should be that way.

Hard to predict the future. Glad I got "lucky" and bought in the West end.

 

[Journeyman]

.......you don't know me, don't know where I've been, or what perspectives I may have....

Correct: we can only judge by your words.  And by those words, the impression you are leaving is that of the loud guy at the corner of the bar who has an opinion or claims expertise on pretty much everything....despite growing evidence to the contrary.

In "Saving Money in the PRes":

...... I don't think there is a real use for the reserves.

That whole thread has turned into a train-wreck, illustrating only that you have no idea of the legislated role of the Reserves, (or how much they cost given your wild-ass guess about swapping 20,000 Reservists for 5,000 RegF).

But you weren't content to demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the Reserves,

I think given the current climate, we're better off separated from the public service.

Thank you for confirming that you haven't the vaguest idea of how Treasury Board and Public Service bench marks for military pay works....and how we continue to benefit from it.

Hell, in "It's time to consolidate NDHQ," you even manage to contradict yourself, saying that:

DND isn't responsible in locating your work close to your home.
[AND]
.....they should get a cost move if they wish to relocate closer to the west end.

Granted, you appear to have a modicum of schooling, recognizing terms like "ad hominum" and "opportunity costs." Needless to say, there is no shortage of examples where education does not necessarily mean knowledgeable.


So yes, while we neither know of you or your experience, you leave no doubt about your perspectives. 
Let me assure you that you've garnered a significant amount of PM discussion. 
From that, I can tell you that the reason there isn't a lot of argument against your opinions is not that there's a consensus regarding your brilliance,
but rather because a growing number of people are just setting you to <ignore>


Welcome to the site; awesome first impression.  :not-again:


ps - save any response. As noted, you're set to ignore; your 'wisdom' will be wasted.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

To clarify, nothing contradictory about my statement. I said it's not DND's responsibility to locate your work close to your home. It is DND's responsibility to pay to locate your home close to your work when they change your place of work.

In this case, where they are significantly moving the workplace of many people, especially given the long commuting times in Ottawa (by public transit as well as private vehicle).

In that case I think DND ought to move people in places like Orleans and Rockland.

 

[Occam]

I fully, 100%, unequivocally, without reservation, in the absolute clearest of terms, understand how the military compensation system works and don't need it explained to me. It is you who are failing to understand the point that I've made; that being, I don't disagree that it is the way it is, I just don't agree that should be that way.

Oh, I got it - I just don't buy what you're selling because there are too many parallels to dismiss a link between CF and PS compensation.  I'm curious to hear how you'd turn the CF pay and benefits system on its ear and set it up your way...in a new thread, or in one that likely already exists on that topic.

 

[Remius]

I think what one has to look at is that many PS employees that work at 101 and live in Orleans will just simply  attempt to move to another job that keeps them closer.  DND isn't the only show in town and neither do most PS employees live in Orleans.  I know plenty of PS people thrilled that DND is moving out to the west end because they live there.  Many also live in the South end (Riverside South, Hunt Club, Farhaven etc) that won't see too much of a disruption to get out there. 

So the person who works at 101 who might be moving could say transfer to some other job at LSTL or another department and the dude who works at Transport Canada downtown might try to get in at DND because he lives in Kanata.

Kanata will likely see and upswing in military types moving there (heck even Arnprior, Almonte, Carp won't be that far off and will likely be cheaper alternatives) anmd Orleans will see a drop in Military folks over teh long run but I doubt it will be as drastic or as rapid as one would think.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

I think what one has to look at is that many PS employees that work at 101 and live in Orleans will just simply  attempt to move to another job that keeps them closer.  DND isn't the only show in town and neither do most PS employees live in Orleans.  I know plenty of PS people thrilled that DND is moving out to the west end because they live there.  Many also live in the South end (Riverside South, Hunt Club, Farhaven etc) that won't see too much of a disruption to get out there. 

So the person who works at 101 who might be moving could say transfer to some other job at LSTL or another department and the dude who works at Transport Canada downtown might try to get in at DND because he lives in Kanata.

Kanata will likely see and upswing in military types moving there (heck even Arnprior, Almonte, Carp won't be that far off and will likely be cheaper alternatives) anmd Orleans will see a drop in Military folks over teh long run but I doubt it will be as drastic or as rapid as one would think.

I agree, however my wife has experience with the PS, typically when their place of work is shifted by a given amount (the details I don't have right now) they try to find them a similar position in the area, cost move them, or if the person is unwilling to move and can't be provided with a similar job, they have to payout severance.

 

[Remius]

Yes, though it's the place of employement to the new place of employment.  This move is still in the NCR.  The geographical location and its limits remain the same for place of employ.  Therefore no one will be getting any sort of arrangement like that.

 

[McG]

I know an individual who moved to Orleans to work at Shirley's Bay.  He was quite happy with the commute; once he passed the Metcalf exit it was wide open highway, and he insists the remainder of the trip took less time than if he had followed traffic into parking downtown.  I have never done either commute, so I cannot comment on the accuracy of his travel assessment.  But, his example does raise the possibility that Orleans commuters may not be as emotionally put-out by this change as some predict.

In the bigger picture, this move is a necessary and healthy step for DND and the military.  It is only too bad that we are not taking consolidation all the way.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Yes, though it's the place of employement to the new place of employment.  This move is still in the NCR.  The geographical location and its limits remain the same for place of employ.  Therefore no one will be getting any sort of arrangement like that.

I wouldn't be so sure, Kingston Pen guards were getting cost moves if they were transferred to institutions that were a certain distance away from their home. I keep thinking it was 40 km but I can't remember for sure.

These institutions were all within the geographic Kingston area, but as long as they bought within the radius of KP and their house wasn't in the radius of the new place of work, they were getting a cost move.

The same rules apply to all public servants.

 

[Occam]

The commute from Orleans to Kanata isn't particularly painful if you start your work day at 0700.  If you're shooting for a 0800 start, you're going to catch all the traffic and be a miserable SOB.

I worked at both 101 and Tunneys after being posted to Ottawa, and took OC Transpo the whole time.  Many of the same faces that were on the bus when I boarded in Orleans, or boarded after me, I watched walk into 101/Tunneys with me.  In fact, Tunneys is the last stop on many of the current westbound express routes.  I'd be curious to see a survey of where DND/CF employees reside.

I believe the clause from the NJC Relocation Directive you're looking for is:  "Normally, relocation shall only be authorized when the employee's new principal residence is at least 40 km (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new place of work than his/her previous residence, in accordance with subsection 248(1) of the Income Tax Act". 

There won't be anyone in Orleans meeting that criteria.

 

[Remius]

And those that might qualify will likely not want to move to Kanata anyway.  it is likely easier to just find a job somewhere else in the PS.

 

[dapaterson]

The NJC relocation directive does not provide a blanket relocation for a change of workplace.  Given that the workplace of most in Ottawa is the National Capital Region, there should be no moves - since the workplace area isn't changing, just the specific building.


NJC relocation directive: http://njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/nrd-drc/index-eng.php

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I believe the clause from the NJC Relocation Directive you're looking for is:  "Normally, relocation shall only be authorized when the employee's new principal residence is at least 40 km (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new place of work than his/her previous residence, in accordance with subsection 248(1) of the Income Tax Act". 

There won't be anyone in Orleans meeting that criteria.

Interesting,.......I would have thought the 40 km would be workplace to workplace.  Why should it be the employers dollars funding a move when you picked your residence?  I know the Ontario Govt has always been workplace to workplace, and it used to be 40km, but now it's 125.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

The NJC relocation directive does not provide a blanket relocation for a change of workplace.  Given that the workplace of most in Ottawa is the National Capital Region, there should be no moves - since the workplace area isn't changing, just the specific building.


NJC relocation directive: http://njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/nrd-drc/index-eng.php

Regardless a large change in the location of work can be considered constructive dismissal in many circumstances. This would trigger a potentially large entitlement in involuntary severance (not to be confused with the voluntary severance we all had paid out).

Whether changing from areas in Ottawa out to Kanata would be be enough to be considered constructive dismissal is something that neither you or I would be able to determine, that would be for a long and expensive arbitration process (possibly followed by a long and expensive employment lawsuit) to determine.

That's why the PS would likely come out with a plan to relocate people that are within a certain criteria. Making a blanket "no one is getting moved, you start Monday in Kanata" statement is how the government gets ground down into lengthy labour disputes.

Hence this is why many Corrections guards got moved under a cost move, even though their new prision was within the same geographic Kingston area that KP was.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hence this is why many Corrections guards got moved under a cost move, even though their new prision was within the same geographic Kingston area that KP was.

So is this FACT or something you heard?  I did a quick google and all I could come up with was 6 got paid to head up to Beaver Creek near Bracebridge.