'It's time to consolidate NDHQ' & 'DND to take-over Nortel Campus' (Merged threads)

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

While I agree with your belief, how do you address the questions I asked.  Is this the best, most cost efficient COA?  Will standing up messes at Nortel perpetuate or kill what little Mess life remains in the NCR?

Having been in the NCR, there was not much mess life to begin with.

Even with what is likely a higher concerntration of military people than anywhere else in Canada (thousands in a tower that is a 3 or 4 minute walk) the messes were essentially empty most of the time.

It's simply the way things are going with messes. No one sticks around anymore to hang out in a bar after work. The military has become more of a job, and the cultural change regarding drinking and driving is much more pronounced with the current generation of soldiers.

Frankly I think the mess is going to soon be a thing of the past. Walk into any mess now, even on a base of 5 thousand soldiers, the mess will be more or less populated by the same 20 or 30 people. Is it really serving the average dues paying member?

But I digress, that is another topic.

I would make the best guess as there will be an NCM, SW and Officer's mess at Nortel based on the idea that the concentration is sufficient and it is a 30 minute bus ride (45 minute drive during after work rush hour) to get to the downtown messes. It would be an injustice to require them to pay into the mess they are more than likely never going to step into.

 

[Transporter]

Startop is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the relocations that will be taking place to Nortel Campus.  Why would you make an absurd comment that retaining Startop would have anything to do with public servant homeowners from Orleans?

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, not literal. Do you live in Orleans by chance?

 

[Transporter]

Force Protection and Physical Security?  Do you have any knowledge at all about the Nortel Campus?  Do you have any information as to why DND is not moving anyone into that location anytime in the very near future?

That Campus is a serious Security concern at the moment.  One of the main reasons Nortel went under is that amount of Industrial Espionage that took place on that Campus.  The whole place should be gutted.

Yes I do. And everything you just stated as fact has been disavowed by DND. There is no evidence of past industrial espionage using physical listening devices within the Nortel complex. It has been alleged by former employees but nothing has been found to back that up. Show me the proof if you're so informed.

 

[George Wallace]

...... There is no evidence of past industrial espionage using physical listening devices within the Nortel complex. It has been alleged by former employees but nothing has been found to back that up. Show me the proof if you're so informed.

I see you have been reading the press.  There are other means of 'listening/observing/recording' other than physical devices.  If I may quote YOU: Show me the proof if you're so informed -- that nothing has been found.  Please don't insult me with a statement from a PAFFO.

On my part, even if I had facts that you question, I could not inform you, nor expose any sources of such information.  Not knowing you.  Not on the Internet. 

Guess this is a Stalemate, as I am sure you have no intentions of showing me any proof of there not being anything found.

 

[Transporter]

Well played sir... self-declared stalemate from a position of undefendable "fact stating".

 

[George Wallace]

Well played sir... self-declared stalemate from a position of undefendable "fact stating".

And you should know better. 

 

[Transporter]

And you should know better.

Actually, my original post only spoke of the Nortel Complex providing benefits from a Force Protection and Physical Security standpoint. I stand by that assertion.

 

[Occam]

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, not literal. Do you live in Orleans by chance?

Not now, but I did up until moving further out of the city this summer for my CF retirement move.  It just struck me as an odd statement to make, one with a note of mild disdain for public servants.  Just so you know, there are probably just as many CF members in Orleans as there are DND public servants - and they're all going to be faced with a loss in real estate value and a hefty commute.  Eventually things will become stable again as people being posted into the NCR buy homes closer to Nortel and the CF/DND personnel presence in Orleans dwindles, but that'll take a while.  The real estate market in Ottawa is already very soft and flooded with available homes - this is only going to make it more difficult to sell in Orleans.  If I were still living there, I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be a subject for tongue-in-cheek humour.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Ottawa is a city of about a million people, moving a couple of hundred DND jobs to another part of the city won't have that much effect on the price of houses in Orleans. No doubt that same building will fill back up with some other company. Plus looks like the new job announcement by the Ontario government and Cisco is mostly going to benefit Ottawa.

 

[Transporter]

Not now, but I did up until moving further out of the city this summer for my CF retirement move.  It just struck me as an odd statement to make, one with a note of mild disdain for public servants.  Just so you know, there are probably just as many CF members in Orleans as there are DND public servants - and they're all going to be faced with a loss in real estate value and a hefty commute.  Eventually things will become stable again as people being posted into the NCR buy homes closer to Nortel and the CF/DND personnel presence in Orleans dwindles, but that'll take a while.  The real estate market in Ottawa is already very soft and flooded with available homes - this is only going to make it more difficult to sell in Orleans.  If I were still living there, I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be a subject for tongue-in-cheek humour.

I am well aware of everything you've just stated and I have absolutely no disdain for public servants. Don't know that I could say the same for public servant unions however - the ones who were decrying the purchase of the Nortel Complex in the first place - but certainly not public servants. As a west-end homeowner, if I've hurt your feelings, I apologize.

 

[Occam]

Ottawa is a city of about a million people, moving a couple of hundred DND jobs to another part of the city won't have that much effect on the price of houses in Orleans. No doubt that same building will fill back up with some other company. Plus looks like the new job announcement by the Ontario government and Cisco is mostly going to benefit Ottawa.

Couple of hundred?  There are 8500 employees that will take part in the move to Nortel.  I think the number that come from Orleans will amount to more than a couple of hundred.  Speaking as someone who recently had a house on the market in Orleans, I'm going to disagree with you - prices are already coming down (faster than other areas within the NCR) for home sales, and the DND move to Nortel will only exacerbate that, although the effects will probably only last a few years.  Hard to ignore the effects if you're one of the ones trying to sell your house, though.

Those Cisco jobs will likely land in Kanata - fuelling even more demand for homes in the west end.

I am well aware of everything you've just stated and I have absolutely no disdain for public servants. Don't know that I could say the same for public servant unions however - the ones who were decrying the purchase of the Nortel Complex in the first place - but certainly not public servants. As a west-end homeowner, if I've hurt your feelings, I apologize.

Those PS union executives are paid to represent the union members, so if enough union members make it known that DND's relocation is an issue, then they're simply doing their jobs.  The unions are obligated to push DND to request additional public transit support from OC Transpo, and I'm sure there are other issues that are being brought up.  CF members don't have a union to push for these things, so consider yourself blessed that there are unions that have parallel interests to those of the CF members.  I live in Limoges and work in Gatineau, and that work location is highly unlikely to change, so you haven't hurt my feelings.  However, I can sympathize with those who still live in Orleans and will have a longer commute, and with those who will suffer equity losses in their homes.  The effect of all of this won't be massive to the city as a whole, but it's certainly going to have a measurable effect in the east end that cannot be dismissed.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm with Occam on this, it is a big deal and one local politician has already (six months ago) tried to derail it by, in good Canadian fashin, playing the language card.

There is some West-end vs East-end political tension here in Ottawa ~ by the way, I'm long retired and I live in the downtown core, so  k: ~ the city's transit plan is, in fact, designed to placate the East-end, first, and then the South-end in order to make up for the West-end's perceived advantages (which might be deeply embedded in our culture).

Now that the move appears to be "on," again I suspect (hope, anyway) that the feds will may (should) tell the city that the city's Transit Master Plan needs to be amended to include a rail extension to the Carling Campus if it wants federal funding.*

Anyway, I doubt that local politics can stop or even stall the move but there are real people involved in all this - literally thousands of military personnel and DND civilian employees - who live in the Eastern suburbs and will feel the impact of a move to the Carling Campus, and the impact they feel will be passed on to the communities in the Eastern suburbs.

Change of topic

Messes

The right answer is to build a single dining facility at the Carling Campus ~ maybe with some private "function rooms" for e.g. GOFOs and equivalent civil servants and groups who want (rare) "private" gatherings. But, we have discussed the future of messes in other threads here on Army.ca and I doubt there is a need for a traditional "drinking/dining mess" in NDHQ.

What about the existing Messes is the downtown core? My guess is that the three officers' messes, at least, can (but maybe oughtn't to) survive so long as serving members are required to pay dues. (I'm not aware of the financial situation of the other messes.) If those three messes were smart they would consolidate into one, but ...

_____
* And to the Ottawa Airport, too, I suspect

 

[dapaterson]

Carling Campus already includes food service areas; last time I was there there was still a Tim Horton's in operation inside the facility, with adequate space already configured for several additional cafeterias.

As for formal dining: provide a shuttle and leverage the facilities at Connaught.

Indeed, oblige folks to use Connaught when on TD; it will reduce hotel costs, and given the state of the shacks, will reduce TD to the bare minimum required.

Heck, order the IR folks into shacks in Connaught after two years - methinks we'd see a massive reduction in the IR bill...

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

There doesn't need to be a mess at all in Carling. There's no one living in close to carling campus. Just having a civilian cafeteria like everywhere else in Ottawa right now and people can choose to eat there or somewhere else.

A drinking mess is another ball of wax, unless they are going to allow people not to pay into a mess there should be the 3 drinking messes located there.

As far as people living in Orleans, this plan for Carling campus has been in the works for a long time now, if you bought in Orleans you made a choice, like any of us that buy houses. DND isn't responsible in locating your work close to your home.

Now, personally, I think if someone bought in Orleans within 40 km of their place of work and this relocation now puts them outside 40 km, then they should get a cost move if they wish to relocate closer to the west end. It would be very expensive for DND, but I think it's only fair. Saving that, people that bought before the relocation announcement should get a cost move.

 

[George Wallace]

The announcement that DND was moving to the NORTEL Campus is not a recent announcement.  It was made several years ago.  In that time, CF members working at the various DND offices in the city would have more than likely been posted out and new members posted in.  This gave, and still gives, CF members newly posted to Ottawa the opportunity to buy closer to the Nortel Campus and avoid Orleans.  Civilian employees are not affected the same way in this circumstance.

Orleans was popular with all DND and CF employees for its access to downtown via OC Transpo and the fact that a house in Orleans was at least $40K less that the same house in Kanata.  Soft housing market that may mean a loss in the sale of a home in Orleans and the purchase of a newer more expensive home in the West end is not an attractive option.

Civilian employees will not have the same circumstances as the CF members, as they are not moved as often, if ever.  Besides, many civilian employees don't live in Orleans anyway, so this whole argument is more or less a Red Herring (except for one Federal Minister who has raised the Language Card.).

 

[Transporter]

Those PS union executives are paid to represent the union members, so if enough union members make it known that DND's relocation is an issue, then they're simply doing their jobs.  The unions are obligated to push DND to request additional public transit support from OC Transpo, and I'm sure there are other issues that are being brought up.  CF members don't have a union to push for these things, so consider yourself blessed that there are unions that have parallel interests to those of the CF members.  I live in Limoges and work in Gatineau, and that work location is highly unlikely to change, so you haven't hurt my feelings.  However, I can sympathize with those who still live in Orleans and will have a longer commute, and with those who will suffer equity losses in their homes.  The effect of all of this won't be massive to the city as a whole, but it's certainly going to have a measurable effect in the east end that cannot be dismissed.

Please, enough with the blatantly obvious. Also, I have never, nor will I ever, consider myself blessed for anything that a federal public service union does.  In fact - since you brought it up - I find it insulting that anything I get as a military member has to be tied to whatever the public service gets rather than it being based entirely on the merits of military service (positively or negatively). I'd rather not have my service, and the compensation I receive for it, tied to what a federal public servant receives. I don't see us a being equal, or even similar, at all. Pretty radical thinking eh? 

 

[Edward Campbell]

Please, enough with the blatantly obvious. Also, I have never, nor will I ever, consider myself blessed for anything that a federal public service union does.  In fact - since you brought it up - I find it insulting that anything I get as a military member has to be tied to whatever the public service gets rather than it being based entirely on the merits of military service (positively or negatively). I'd rather not have my service, and the compensation I receive for it, tied to what a federal public servant receives. I don't see us a being equal, or even similar, at all. Pretty radical thinking eh?

Trust me, Transporter ... those of us who served in uniform before our pay was tied, bench marked was the term they used back then, to the public service recall how poorly paid we were. We You are Canadian soldiers: you work for a population that earnestly dislikes spending money on you ~ not for facilities, not for equipment and not for salaries. The decision to tie our your pay an benefits to the public service has been a blessing for two generations of Canadian sailors, soldiers and air force personnel. You may not like the public service unions but, believe me, they, not some MND or general,  not even Rick Hillier, got you your current salary.

 

[Transporter]

Trust me, Transporter ... those of us who served in uniform before our pay was tied, bench marked was the term they used back then, to the public service recall how poorly paid we were. We You are Canadian soldiers: you work for a population that earnestly dislikes spending money on you ~ not for facilities, not for equipment and not for salaries. The decision to tie our your pay an benefits to the public service has been a blessing for two generations of Canadian sailors, soldiers and air force personnel. You may not like the public service unions but, believe me, they, not some MND or general,  not even Rick Hillier, got you your current salary.

In a round-about way, yes they did - I get all of that. And I still feel insulted that that is what it took to do so.

 

[Edward Campbell]

It wasn't "round about," at all. It was, and still is, very direct: PS unions bargain for their members, government finally agrees to a pay package ... shortly after we you get a pay package based on the various bench marks. They bargain for you and, I suggest, without them you would not be anywhere near as well paid as you are ... nor would my pension be as good as it is.

 

[Transporter]

It wasn't "round about," at all. It was, and still is, very direct: PS unions bargain for their members, government finally agrees to a pay package ... shortly after we you get a pay package based on the various bench marks. They bargain for you and, I suggest, without them you would not be anywhere near as well paid as you are ... nor would my pension be as good as it is.

Once again, I know how the compensation system works. I don't have a misunderstanding of it, nor am I confused by it (but I do take issue with your statement that the PS unions bargain for me). My issue is with the fact that is the way it is... we get tossed a bone based on how successful, or not, a PS union can negotiate public service union interests (not military service interests). I think we're straying way off topic now so I'll shut up.