Islam and Western Society

[ballz]

Our, Western, enlightenment was a reaction against much of Christian doctrine and teaching, and the enlightenments (I think there were two or three) that took place in China 2,500 years ago were reactions against Shenism (神教).

Could you expand, maybe with some examples, of what these reactions were, and what they were reacting against? Especially the Western examples?

 

[FJAG]

Sorry guys. I didn't really enter this thread to give my :2c: about the merits or lack thereof of Islam or early Christianity.

I have read into the religion a bit in order to give some frame of reference for some of the characters in my novels but I consider myself far from a being able to discuss the topic on its merits intelligently.

My purpose was solely to add a comment to GnyHwy's post about the program which I watched and which, while I thought it was generally well done, fell far short on dealing with the prophet's "legacy".

Do carry on. I'll be lurking. op:

 

[GnyHwy]

This wraps it up into a nice neat little package.  Makes sense to me!

 

[George Wallace]

Good reasons to stay the heck out of there.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This wraps it up into a nice neat little package.  Makes sense to me!

That has got to be the best explanation I've heard so far.

It also supports the idea that that best thing to do is to stay out of the area, mind our own business, sit back and watch them kill themselves off.

Check back in 20 years and see if they've gotten themselves sorted out yet.

 

[GnyHwy]

Changes to the Islamic zeitgeist have to come from the top; through a constitution that guarantees freedom of and freedom from religion, and freedom of expression.

This is true, but they don't necessarily have to come from there, and that is not the only way.  When it comes from the bottom it is a revolution, which we are witnessing.

Unfortunately, and this can be said for pretty much any culture/society - to get anything to come from the top (without benefits) is very unlikely to happen no matter what the idea, in whatever society/nation.  Getting persons/groups to voluntarily relinquish power/control is a nonstarter in negotiations; and religion and politics don't even have to be part of the conversation.

FJAG,

You are correct that the documentary was... I will call it "optimistic", and only showing the positives.  But, can you call all the bad stuff "his" legacy, if all it is a bunch of jerks twisting it to suit their agenda?

It could be said that Jesus' legacy was give up riches to help the poor, but that one isn't exactly followed to the letter either, and whether there is violence or not, it could still be interpreted as mistreatment according to his "word". 

Oh boy! Why did I get into this?  :facepalm: LOL.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Changes to the Islamic zeitgeist have to come from the top; through a constitution that guarantees freedom of and freedom from religion, and freedom of expression.

That is like asserting that night will have to become like day by the rising of the sun, but somehow we will still think of it as night.  What you propose is impossible by definition: the religion _is_ the constitution.  The only way to have enlightened Islam - all the classical liberal baggage of western civilization - is to have something that is not Islam.

 

[George Wallace]

>Changes to the Islamic zeitgeist have to come from the top; through a constitution that guarantees freedom of and freedom from religion, and freedom of expression.

That is like asserting that night will have to become like day by the rising of the sun, but somehow we will still think of it as night.  What you propose is impossible by definition: the religion _is_ the constitution.  The only way to have enlightened Islam - all the classical liberal baggage of western civilization - is to have something that is not Islam.

So?  Following that logic, what we have after the Spanish Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, and so on; is not Christianity?

Would that not validate jihadists philosophies?  We are no longer followers of "the Book"?

 

[FJAG]

FJAG,

You are correct that the documentary was... I will call it "optimistic", and only showing the positives.  But, can you call all the bad stuff "his" legacy, if all it is a bunch of jerks twisting it to suit their agenda?

It could be said that Jesus' legacy was give up riches to help the poor, but that one isn't exactly followed to the letter either, and whether there is violence or not, it could still be interpreted as mistreatment according to his "word". 

Oh boy! Why did I get into this?  :facepalm: LOL.

I saw how you did that. Very tricky. First I say I'll just be lurking and then you ask me a direct question knowing I just can't keep my trap shut.

Okay, here goes. One of the definitions of legacy is "something handed down by a predecessor". Islam has essentially two components which are integrated in a third. The first component, the Qur'an is considered the literal word of Allah as revealed to the prophet through the angel Gabriel. The second is the Sunnah which is the way of the prophet; anecdotal evidence about the prophet's actions and teachings by those who knew him. The two components were compiled from numerous sources starting shortly after the prophets death. The two elements together create the third component, Shari'ah.

So essentially Shari'ah is a compilation of the revelations to the prophet and of his actions and his teachings. That's a legacy by and of itself.

Can the subsequent interpretations also be considered part of his legacy? I think they can.

In effect one of the essential reasons that there are a numerous interpretations (aside from the natural instinct of both lawyers and priests/mullahs to debate any issue ad nauseam) is the fact that the revelations within the Qur'an came during two distinct phases: The earlier Meccan phase where the suras were generally benign; and the later Medinan phase where the suras were aggressive. This is logical in that the Meccan phase involved a movement that was weak (not unlike the early Christian movement) while the Medinan phase involved a strong movement dealing with war, conquest and the structuring of a much larger society which fused religion, government and personal morality.

Back to interpretation. At Sura 2:106 the prophet explained why some of the more recent revelations seemed to contradict earlier ones. The sura effectively stated that Allah, being all powerful, can change his mind and, when he so decides, can replace an older revelation with a new one. While this is part of sura number 2, it was clearly a Medinan one and is considered chronologically the 87th of 114.

Long story short, the prophet put into play revelations which vary in time from benign to aggressive and rules which allow (if not mandate) a system of interpretation whereby the newer less tolerant revelations override older tolerant ones. I think that constitutes a legacy.

eace:

I am now officially returning to lurking.  op:

 

[Dkhorsand]

THOSE STUPID, and I emphasize STUPID people who call them selfs Muslims then commit terror are NOT Muslims. They may think they are fighting for God and calling it a Jihad, but they are brain washed cunts who need to die. I am devastated and it angers me when I see those terrorists committing terror and saying its for God. They are surely the wrong doers.

I do hope I cleared up hatred or misconceptions for anyone. As a fellow Canadian, God bless everyone and may God protect Canada from radical Islam and may God kill those who DARE touch Canada or a Canadian Soldier, or anyone of our brothers/sisters in arms.

That's great. We all agree that terrorists are bad. There are many more issues than this facing Islam, though. It is disappointing that you typed so many words and failed to mention important topics like women's rights and freedom of expression. I would love to hear your opinion on how most of the Muslim world reacted to the Denmark cartoons a few years ago, among other things.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Here's your religion of peace and tolerance.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/08/28/remember-the-story-of-the-horrific-gang-rape-by-muslim-asylum-seekers-of-a-young-29-year-old-swedish-mother-of-two-it-gets-worse/

 

[pbi]

Changes to the Islamic zeitgeist have to come from the top; through a constitution that guarantees freedom of and freedom from religion, and freedom of expression.

A problem with this proposal is that, AFAIK, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, or the Anglican Church, or any other church with a structured and recognized hierarchy, Islam has no "top" from which to issues such changes. Apart from vague millenialist rantings about reestablishing a "caliphate", I don't see anything on the horizon either. If anything, Islam remains as fragmented as Christianity.

On top of that, as had already been pointed out on these pages, Islam (like any religion) is understood and practiced through local cultural filters. Don't try looking for enlightened social or political viewpoints from cultures where there isn't (and never has been...) any "fertile soil" for those things. Islam isn't likely to stray too far from what its host cultures understand and are prepared to accept.

 

[Jed]

A problem with this proposal is that, AFAIK, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, or the Anglican Church, or any other church with a structured and recognized hierarchy, Islam has no "top" from which to issues such changes. Apart from vague millenialist rantings about reestablishing a "caliphate", I don't see anything on the horizon either. If anything, Islam remains as fragmented as Christianity.

On top of that, as had already been pointed out on these pages, Islam (like any religion) is understood and practiced through local cultural filters. Don't try looking for enlightened social or political viewpoints from cultures where there isn't (and never has been...) any "fertile soil" for those things. Islam isn't likely to stray too far from what its host cultures understand and are prepared to accept.

I can certainly agree with that. And because of this we in the west can not treat Islam just like any other one of many religions. At least if we wish to keep the core Christian values of our established countries.

 

[pbi]

I can certainly agree with that. And because of this we in the west can not treat Islam just like any other one of many religions. At least if we wish to keep the core Christian values of our established countries.

I'm not sure I get the connection. I wasn't suggesting that we single out Islam or its adherents for some sort of persecution or legal restriction. Islam is already practiced in both Canada and the US, but in general its practice doesn't stray far from what our cultures understand, and what they are prepared to accept. Despite all the panicky rhetoric, as far as I can see, most Muslims in Canada just want to get on with life.

If some Muslims in Canada (or the US) decide to act in a way that is clearly unacceptable (ie: planning to bring "jihad" to a VIA rail line near you, or advocating chopping off Mr Harper's head, or urging the institution of Sharia law), then they either get arrested (first two examples)or otherwise told "we don't want that here: behave yourselves." (third example)

We could probably have a good debate about just what the "Christian values" of mainstream Canadian society actually are, and what sort of things really do threaten them, but I don't seriously see Islam in Canada as being one of those threats, any more than Communism in Canada ever seriously posed a threat (as opposed to the true threats of Russian imperialism and militarism)

 

[Jed]

I'm not sure I get the connection. I wasn't suggesting that we single out Islam or its adherents for some sort of persecution or legal restriction. Islam is already practiced in both Canada and the US, but in general its practice doesn't stray far from what our cultures understand, and what they are prepared to accept. Despite all the panicky rhetoric, as far as I can see, most Muslims in Canada just want to get on with life.
If some Muslims in Canada (or the US) decide to act in a way that is clearly unacceptable (ie: planning to bring "jihad" to a VIA rail line near you, or advocating chopping off Mr Harper's head, or urging the institution of Sharia law), then they either get arrested (first two examples)or otherwise told "we don't want that here: behave yourselves." (third example)

We could probably have a good debate about just what the "Christian values" of mainstream Canadian society actually are, and what sort of things really do threaten them, but I don't seriously see Islam in Canada as being one of those threats, any more than Communism in Canada ever seriously posed a threat (as opposed to the true threats of Russian imperialism and militarism)

Western laws and our culture are based on Christian values and ethics. Granted our society is currently a whole lot more secular, but we still are  basically Christian ethics and culture based.

Sharia law will not cut it here. A quiet push for a world Caliphate will not cut it here.

I agree with you there is no need to get hot and bothered about Islam, but we do not want to ignore it or appease the extremist propagation ala Britain and France, either.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Christianity supplies part of our culture and our laws, too, but so do classical and pagan Greco-Roman ideas and, in significant measure, pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon ideas.

The very idea of the rule of law is pagan Greco-Roman: Aristotle said "It is more proper that law should govern than any one of the citizens," and Cicero said "We are all servants of the laws in order that we may be free." Christianity has relatively little to say on the subject ~ lots of rules, lots of divine law, little about the rule of law.


Edit: added a phrase for clairty

 

[Jed]

Christianity supplies part of our culture and our laws, too, but so do classical and pagan Greco-Roman ideas and, in significant measure, pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon ideas.The very idea of the rule of law is pagan Greco-Roman: Aristotle said "It is more proper that law should govern than any one of the citizens," and Cicero said "We are all servants of the laws in order that we may be free." Christianity has relatively little to say on the subject ~ lots of rules, lots of divine law, little about the rule of law.


Edit: added a phrase for clairty

Yes ERC, you are correct as usual. I still think my comments stand wrt to the Christian culture. The Greco-Roman and Anglo-Saxon roots are from quite a while back. More recently since 1700 - 1800's I believe the Christian culture is dominant and has adopted the current western rule of law ethos. Although the more recent secular influences are continually morphing the western culture of today.

I am starting to stray out of my lanes as I am not a history scholar however.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm just being pedantic because it seems to me that we ought not to compare religions (outside of a classroom, anyway) when we are, really, talking culture. I think pbi is correct: the values and actions that we often ascribe to Islam are, very often (most often?) really well entrenched cultural values from various regions where Islam happens to dominate ~ North Africa, the Middle East, South West Asia and so on.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm just being pedantic because it seems to me that we ought not to compare religions (outside of a classroom, anyway) when we are, really, talking culture. I think pbi is correct: the values and actions that we often ascribe to Islam are, very often (most often?) really well entrenched cultural values from various regions where Islam happens to dominate ~ North Africa, the Middle East, South West Asia and so on.

I've read tracts (Ishrad Manji comes to mind) where Muslims complain of too much Arab culture tied into the central tenets of Islam.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I've read tracts (Ishrad Manji comes to mind) where Muslims complain of too much Arab culture tied into the central tenets of Islam.

Yes, me too; and, last year, I heard it directly from some Muslims in Malaysia. They complained, fairly vociferously, about the Arabization of Malaysian Islam. They thought that their culture was superior to Arab culture ~ more enlightened ~ and they thought that the Qur'an was wholly and properly accessible in the vernacular ~ shades of William Tyndale.