Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?

[PuckChaser]

You can ask for 2 short per month as much as you want. While there's no rule about short and special on the same leave pass, I would have your special leave (relocation prior to course) on a different leave pass as that is an entitlement, and the short leave is a request that can be denied. Will save you from having to redo the leave pass if the short is denied.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes.

I asked talked with my acting CWO today (actual one is on a tasking) and basically got told to let it go.

Not at all surprised.

So now I am asking this;

Can I put in a memo asking for both short and special leave at the same time? I am going on 2 month tasking and I would normally just ask for 2 special before and after but cause I can only get 1 can I also ask for 1 short before and after? I meet the criteria on being able to ask for both.

You can ask, but if they are being *the way they are* about leave, do you expect short in lieu of the Special?

I've posted the ref above that states "leave shall be given as it is for uncompressed work week folks". 

Special leave (Relocation) for a 2 month tasking is covered under Section 5.10 Special Leave (Relocation).

"In addition, Special Leave (Relocation) may also be granted, at the discretion of the home unit CO, for members who are away from their home unit on duty for operations/training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada.

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.

Again, not saying I agree with how your unit is administering leave...just trying to point out policy that can help you decide if this is a hill worth taking and dying for.  Is part of the issue your unit isn't fully manned by any chance??  And when someone takes leave or tasked away from the unit, it is challenging to meet of the taskings that need to happen 'at home'...keeping shifts full, etc.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

special leave (relocation prior to course) on a different leave pass as that is an entitlement

Not quite...personally, I've never had Special leave for a course denied, but I've had it limited because of op tempo...

 

[PuckChaser]

Not quite...personally, I've never had Special leave for a course denied, but I've had it limited because of op tempo...

I don't have the leave manual handy, but I'm pretty sure operational reasons are the only way a CO can deny it (the special leave).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ref my reply a couple of posts up.  Also notable is the wording "maximum # of days" in the tables in Annex B of Chap 5 and the lack of the word shall.  But, below is the entire portion of Chap 5 (we're both correct...depending on the details of the tasking...attach posted is treated differently than TD, for example).

5.10.04 Withholding or Limiting Leave

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a compulsory relocation on posting or attached-posting may be denied, withheld or limited only because of exigencies of the service such as time constraints in the event of a rapid deployment or operational reasons beyond the control of the CO. The authority that withholds or limits Special Leave (Relocation) in these situations shall be no lower than the Formation Commander or, in consideration of deployments to an international operation overseas, the force employing operational commander.

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.

 

[ballz]

Admittedly, the leave manual is poorly designed to deal with shift-work, it's too bad the annual leave entitlement couldn't be flexible which would make all of this more simple.

But... This whole 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off... quite frankly, is so jammy I can't even see how it meets the spirit of so many days of Weekend (Shiftworker) and if it were ever scrutinized, I don't believe would be very defend-able. This is 5 days off for every 48 hours of work.

By the book, if you want to take those 2x 24 hour shifts off, you should be taking 7 annual and 2 weekend. There is a very good reason for this... if you only have to take 2 annual to get those 24 hours off, that means you take 4 annual to get 9 days off. Or in other words, you could use 25 annual to get 55 days off of work. There is a reason the leave manual states

Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.

Weekend (Shiftworker), unlike annual, must be earned. In other words, you need to do your 24 on, 24 off, 24 on... to get those Weekend (Shiftworker) days. This is for pretty obvious reasons.

And you want to use 1x annual to get out of 1x 24 hr shift? Someone with 25 annual could literally take off 112 days straight.


I'm very surprised that people think his CoC is being arseholes... I think they are being too generous even at 2 annual for 1x 24 hr shift. Like I said, if you want a cycle off (so 9 days total), it should require 7 annual and 2 weekend, as per the leave manual.

 

[danteh]

You can ask, but if they are being *the way they are* about leave, do you expect short in lieu of the Special?

Well I am trying to figure it out because I am going on a tasking for 44 days, over two stat holidays (Xmas and Boxing Day) and I am having issues getting days off for it. As of right now I am working 24, waking up driving to the airport to start the task. When I am done I fly back and than start work the next morning. All I have been asking for is two days off before and after and getting shut down.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm very surprised that people think his CoC is being arseholes...

I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift. We are also being told now (was find for a long time up until now) that short, special and holiday leave is now the same. 2 days for 1 day 24 hour shift off.

This part, makes sense to me because each mbr would have to take leave for a 0730-2359 timeframe and a 0000-0730 timeframe.  That's 2 calendar days/working days during 1 x 24 hour shift.

We have a bunch of guys going on courses and deployments looking to get the two special days before hand and the memos are getting kicked back now stating we don’t get two days only one because of this rule.

This part...perhaps its the wording but I read it as "we aren't given the possible maximum days off, ever"...this part I am not in agreement with as I understand it.  Leave is to be taken as it would be for an uncompressed work schedule, etc.  Not sure if the status for courses, etc is AP, TD, etc.  That also factors in.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well I am trying to figure it out because I am going on a tasking for 44 days, over two stat holidays (Xmas and Boxing Day) and I am having issues getting days off for it. As of right now I am working 24, waking up driving to the airport to start the task. When I am done I fly back and than start work the next morning. All I have been asking for is two days off before and after and getting shut down.

Is your tasking a posting/attach posting, TD?

 

[danteh]

Is your tasking a posting/attach posting, TD?

Yes, TD.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Personally, I am of the mindset that CAF members should, if at all possible, get the max days off allowed in the Chap 5 Annexs before being away from their postal code and families.  I'm alittle biased;  my coworkers and myself spend a lot of days away from home and/or on standby and rarely do we ever get those days back even close to 1 for 1.  I'm writing this after another crew day away from my postal code. 

I also think, though, in your case, your unit...1 *shift* equals 2 days of leave, because your shift covers 2 calendar days.  IAW the LPM, the CO doesn't have the ability to grant 'partial' leave days except for Short.  If the CO is only giving you 1 *shift* off for Special, vice 1 *day* off...well...that unfortunately can easily be seen as meeting the spirit and intent of the LPM (IMO).

In the case of your specific upcoming TD that will include Christmas, I think your unit could revisit the scheduling plan and revise it so you had a day or 2 before your depart and when you get back.  I think this could easily fall in the "QOL/welfare of subordinates" part of the way we do business...and if I was your immediate superior, this is the approach I would take with your A/UCWO.  Have you discussed this with your immediate superior yet?   

Edit - ok, for TD...from Chap 5...have a read of a few earlier posts.  Its basically up to the CO to grant/limit, etc.

"Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO."

 

[Blackadder1916]

There were two grievance summaries that dealt with leave and shift workers.  While the circumstances of each were not exactly like the OP's situation, the results may provide some understanding on how it could play out if grieved.

https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2014-089.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2013-002.html

. . . In reviewing the case, the Board was concerned by the IA's view that the duty/leave cycle was fair because it provided “adequate” or “sufficient” leave in the duty cycle while meeting the mission. The Board was of the view that it is not open to the CO to determine leave entitlements on the basis of what he judges he can afford while still fulfilling his operational mandate. Rather, the discretion available to the CO is found in the authority to grant or deny the leave. Leave entitlements are determined by the Canadian Forces leave policy. . . .

CDS Decision Summary
. . .  The FA was of the opinion that working beyond an average Monday-to-Friday schedule does not automatically mean that compensation has to be attributed. To work beyond normal work or shift schedules does not automatically entitle one to compensatory off-duty time. However, it is a command responsibility to ensure that adequate leave and off-duty time be provided to Canadian Armed Forces personnel. . . .

 

[McG]

It should not take more than one day of leave to get 24 hours off.  But, it should also not be possible to take one day annual, one day weekend and one more day annual to get an eight day cycle off.

The problem here is misapplication of leave policy (which gives very specific arcs) to solve a separate scheduling problem.  If you take one day annual on what should be D1 of the 8 day cycle, then your D1 shifts to the left by one calendar day.  Take three annual and D1 shifts to what would be D4.  Maybe after 4 days of annual the system gives you a day of weekend, and with the consumption of six days annual you get two days of weekend (to make a full eight day cycle off).

 

[ballz]

It should not take more than one day of leave to get 24 hours off.

They aren't getting 24 hours off though, they are getting 48 hours off. For example, if my shift is 0730 Wednesday - 0730 Thursday.... I take that shift off, I am actually getting 48 hours off (0000 Monday until 2359 Tuesday)... I definitely need at least two annual. In this scenario, you come off work Tuesday at 0730... by taking that second 24 shift off, you are getting Wednesday and Thursday off.

But, it should also not be possible to take one day annual, one day weekend and one more day annual to get an eight day cycle off.

I'm being pedantic here because it's important in applying Weekend(Shiftworker) leave, but it's a 9-day cycle. 4 working days* and 5 Weekend(Shiftworker). If you look at how they compared it towards a normal Mon-Fri worker in the grievance analysis, the results are quite contrasting here. In any given 63-day period, a M-F worker has 18 non-working days, let's assume a stat or two, so 19-20... in this 9-day cycle, the shiftworker is getting 35.

*Let's say my 9-day cycle starts at 0730 on Monday...
My shifts are
0730 Monday - 0730 Tuesday
24 hrs off
0730 Wednesday - 0730 Thursday
5 days off

So 4 working days, 5 Weekend(Shiftworker)

The problem here is misapplication of leave policy (which gives very specific arcs) to solve a separate scheduling problem.

Agreed. Even if I knew all the different constraints and how the job works, I don't know if there'd be an easy answer with the constraints of the Leave Policy.

But I think in this case, the members are getting a pretty jammy go for days off...

 

[McG]

They aren't getting 24 hours off though, ...

Of course, I never stated nor did I attempt to state what they are getting from a day of leave.  I stated what should be gotten.  Put that snipped out sentence back into context with the rest of the post and you see that.

I'm being pedantic here because it's important in applying Weekend(Shiftworker) leave, but it's a 9-day cycle. 4 working days* and 5 Weekend(Shiftworker).

Are you sure?  The OP has not used terms such as “working days” and “weekend”.  Others have used those terms, but I would want a reference to show those terms can be applied to interpret the OP’s words.  The OP described 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then five days off.  In my mind, where the remainder of the schedule is in 24 hr blocks then five days off is a 120 hour block.

If I missed something, point me back to it (I am reading on a smart phone and I find it is easier to miss things on the little screen).  Otherwise, this may be a point for the OP to clarify.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If you look at how they compared it towards a normal Mon-Fri worker in the grievance analysis, the results are quite contrasting here. In any given 63-day period, a M-F worker has 18 non-working days, let's assume a stat or two, so 19-20... in this 9-day cycle, the shiftworker is getting 35.

However, in the case of an avg Mon-Fri worker, they are likely working 8-4 per duty day, and the 24hr folks are on duty for 3 times as much per shift.

 

[ballz]

Are you sure?  The OP has not used terms such as “working days” and “weekend”.  Others have used those terms, but I would want a reference to show those terms can be applied to interpret the OP’s words.  The OP described 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then five days off.  In my mind, where the remainder of the schedule is in 24 hr blocks then five days off is a 120 hour block.

If I missed something, point me back to it (I am reading on a smart phone and I find it is easier to miss things on the little screen).  Otherwise, this may be a point for the OP to clarify.

I am not "sure" as I have asked but didn't get responded to. The OP says 24 on- 24 off -24 on- 5 days off. But you're right, he could have meant 24/24/24/120. In that case, yeah it would be 4 working days and 4 Weekend(Shiftworker).

The reason I am assuming Weekend(Shiftworker) is because by the book, I can't see how there is any other way. As far as I know, it is either a duty day or you are on some kind of leave. A CO can't just call something a "non-working day" and therefore render the leave manual useless altogether. Whether it's a 9-day cycle or 8-day, the only thing within the authority of the CO to use to run this kind of cycle is Weekend(Shiftworker) leave. Which follows logically since that it is exactly what it is exists for.

Until positively shown otherwise, I am working off the assumption that this is 4 working days (covers the 24 on-24 off-24 on) and 5 days off, which would be Weekend(Shiftworker). x

However, in the case of an avg Mon-Fri worker, they are likely working 8-4 per duty day, and the 24hr folks are on duty for 3 times as much per shift.

Depending on which unit we are comparing it to (because every Unit varies... my current Unit is 0730 - 1600, so 44 hrs/week) in a 63-day period, the shift-worker on this 9-day cycle works an extra 28-56 hrs...... or 3-6 days if you consider 8 hours a normal work day" so 28-56 hrs, or 3-6 extra 8-hr shifts, however you want to measure it.... justifies an extra 15 more days off?

I guess I'd have to re-do all the math if this is an 8-day cycle. I hope it is, this should feel less lopsided.

 

[Loachman]

I've only been casually watching this, and not attempting to solve the puzzle, but I am tending to view this in terms of TD.

Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own. I frequently spent a fair amount of one to three days of TD, sometimes several times a month, during my early flying career. Each of the middle days represented a twenty-four-hour "shift", and the first and last day well more than the normal eight-hour workday, if one factors the sleeping-in-a-bed-other-than-one's-own aspect in. We never received additional time off for that, nor should we have.

I don't begrudge a shiftworker a little extra time off for the inconvenience of working evenings/nights/weekends and missing family time or living with disrupted circadian rhythms for a few years, but the shifts in question do not appear to do that - too much, at least - unless routinely called out over the full shift cycle. Even then, there appears to be full twenty-four-hour period for recovery and own-time after each.

A fair and consistent means of determining leave remains necessary, but I have no real idea what that would be.

 

[mariomike]

Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own.

Heard that from citizens for many years. I cried all the way to the bank. 

We could get into a Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) discussion. But, suffice to say,  it's "work" just being there. Regardless of how one measures productivity.

Pay and hours of work remain the same whether you are out breaking your back, enjoying a tasty BBQ, washing your car, watching your favorite TV show, or sleeping on the job.

FWIW, regarding scheduling, in the city I reside, firefighters work ten 24-hour shifts every six weeks, and paramedics work twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks.

Impressed a scheduling discussion has gone on for three pages, and counting!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I've only been casually watching this, and not attempting to solve the puzzle, but I am tending to view this in terms of TD.

Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own. I frequently spent a fair amount of one to three days of TD, sometimes several times a month, during my early flying career. Each of the middle days represented a twenty-four-hour "shift", and the first and last day well more than the normal eight-hour workday, if one factors the sleeping-in-a-bed-other-than-one's-own aspect in. We never received additional time off for that, nor should we have.

I don't begrudge a shiftworker a little extra time off for the inconvenience of working evenings/nights/weekends and missing family time or living with disrupted circadian rhythms for a few years, but the shifts in question do not appear to do that - too much, at least - unless routinely called out over the full shift cycle. Even then, there appears to be full twenty-four-hour period for recovery and own-time after each.

A fair and consistent means of determining leave remains necessary, but I have no real idea what that would be.

I think we're starting to blurr the lines between "duty hours" and "work hours".  If we do that, we'd also have to factor in lunch breaks, smoke/coffee breaks, admin time, etc for the *normal* work week folks.  I don't know a single mbr who sits down in their workspace at 0800 and has at it until 1600.

I've been on Standby from 1600 Fri - 0800 Mon and not called in, but on duty the entire time just the same, although not at work.  I can't travel outside of my established boundaries, put in a leave pass, for the simple matter I am on duty over that period.